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Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim

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posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Dasher
People argue too much.

Communists / murderers and liars trying to establish or maintain their empires.
Capitalists / murderers and liars trying to establish or maintain their empires.
Socialists / murderers and liars trying to establish or maintain their empires.

Anyone see the common denominator?

There is no way to avoid arrogance and ignorance in this world, so it is best kept in check by small government.


Many Tribes, but One Body, of Mankind.


Very well said mate! But too many people are brainwashed by there own governments, even if they think they are not




posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 11:16 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


I think pretty much the same thing myself. People seem to forget that the modern Chinese have a line of descent going back 4,500 years ago, much longer then the Europeans can claim. They've made some truly enlightened decisions in the past such as the one child policy, but they've made some tragic decisions such as the handling of Tibet as well. They're no more innocent then any one else but I do believe they're old enough and intelligent enough to make decisions with far reaching implications, they actually haven't tried to take over the world yet, they provide the world with cheap goods and materials which actually increase our quality of life.

In a lot of ways we have much to be thankful to China for. It's not really their fault our economies couldn't handle the outsourcing that went to them, we had ample time / money to build proper knowledge economies to support our nations just as India and China were entering into the global economy. Our politicians did nothing except for to take all of that money and do absolutely nothing with it for us.

None of this is Chinas fault - its ours.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by Jay-morris

I asked you a question, i did not say that this is how you felt. There is a difference!


you either lie or forget what you write, you continually accuse me of listening to govt/media bs, even though I have put you straight on several occasions



Clearly you have a thing about communist. They are as bad as eachother.



Who is as bad as each other? Communism is always at the WORST end of the scale, never forget that



Some countries who have never touched communism have done truely terrible things and still are doing terrible things.


point me to where I suggested otherwise



It does not matter if its communism or not, its the people in charge that make these desicions.


Yes, but you singularly miss the point that Communism in principle makes this more likely to happen and has a more or less 100% proven track record of doing so when it leaps from a text book



It was you who believed that not many westerners go to china to live.


It is not a question of belief, I am aware that westerners live in China and have stated so, there is just not a significant minority of them there, we are not talking tens of millions for example (bearing in mind this is a country of one billion plus)



It was you who said that most of the population was in poverty, both of these is a load of rubbish. Where did you get this information from? While there is poverty in China, its not as bad as you make out.


Move outside the cities Mr China man, and read a little, you waffled about google earlier, go google it




Why is it better than a one party communist state?


Let me get this straight, you are not a communist, but question why having a choice is better? Seriously?

[quote
Sure as hell has done china no hard when it comes to their ecomony. We are talking about a country that will be the next super power, no doubt about it. And they have done this without having to take militery action on small middle east countries.


I do not support war in the middle east and do not care if they are the next super power- it shows how stunted their system is that a country with over a billion people is not already the superpower, because, once again, most people live much poorer than their western equivalents- the only thing I will concede is that at least they have some social order which is sadly lacking in the west




Obviosly, you don't know much about China's history.


I do, there you go with those false assumptions again



Look where China was 30 years ago, to where they are now. There has been a huge improvement.


I am aware of this and I agree, and I hope they improve further and move away from their repressive one party communist state with neither free right to assembly, protest, judiciary, media etc



Yes, they need to improve some more, but its the uk that is in all this dept, that has a huge problem with crime, has a huge anti social behaviour problem.


I have no problem in agreeing with that, hence this govt is not a govt I support, nor was the last



So, what country is look the better, China or UK? all all this as a communist state. Other countries, esp usa have brainwashed people into thinking that communist states are evil. But its the people in charge, wheather its communist or not.


see above about communism, and again, at least Americans have more sources of income and freedom when arrested, freedom to protest etc (however imperfect) which Chinese people do not



We and America are not communist states, but we have done some truely horrible things in the last 10 years or so. Invading the middle east is one of them. Do you know how many people dies in the iraq war? I guess we done it to free the irag people! lol what such good people we are!


Step off the assumptions, my kith and kin should not be dying in those hell holes




So, because this one chinese person is happier in the uk, that means all Chinese people are happeir in the uk. I guess you know my wife is more happier in the uk?


What I was doing was putting your point that because you had been there, and weirdly think China has a better system than the UK, that it does not trump the obvious facts and two can play that game, I know several people who left China for asylum reasons- British people are not fleeing to China for asylum



People from the uk are not seeking asylum in China. They go to china because they want too. They go there, get jobs and have children in China. Because they want too!


Two points- they are not fleeing a repressive regime, whilst the opposite is true for those coming from China, HENCE they seek asylum. For sure there is business oppportunities for well connected westerners, but we are not talking about a mass flow of westerners living in China- once again, give me these numbers, you seem to think there are huge numbers of westerners there- China has a population of one billion plus, would westerners even make up 1% of the population?



Of course many people want to come to the uk from outside. Its easy to live in the uk. If you don't work, you get everything paid for you. Its alot easier to live in the uk than most countries, because we are so soft, simple as that.


Partly true, in the sense that we are soft, but we also do have geniune asylum seekers fleeing persecution, some come from China.....





What a load of rubbish! This country is falling apart, and has been for a long time. Not to mention the huge depts that we have. You might think its ok for our parties to make a habbit of just disagreeing with eachother. You might think its a way forward. Well, thats up to you.


Our imperfect system, whilst better than China, needs improving, must I repeat my disgust for the lib/lab/tory consensus




Like i said before, China is not perfect, and they have done some truely bad things. But other countires who are not communist are doing truely horrible stuff too.


see above



When are you going to figure out that its the people in charge, no matter how the country is run.


with communism it is more or less guaranteed




Lol why don't you go and look yourself. It is common knowledge that the soldier were attacked. Not just attacked but burnt and hanged up. Why don't you look more into Tiananmen Square Massacre before you preach the crap you recieved from the media outside of China. But no matter what you read, you will not believe it because the Chinese governments are evil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You are indulging in too much Chinese communist worship, think for yourself man, blaming the massacre on the students themselves ffs




Im glad that other people on this thread will see how much crap you write. You have not been to China, but you said that there are only some westerners in China. Please tell me how you came to this conclusion. I would really love to know.


Don't get angry because I don't agree with your Chinese communist love in, settle yourself, though with that sort of totalitarian attitude, you might shoot up the ranks of the communist party comrade, dealing with counter revolutionaries like me!

Nothing wrong with the term "some"- the next step up would be "many", and I doubt there are tens of millions of westerners living there............



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by Jay-morris
Very well said mate! But too many people are brainwashed by there own governments, even if they think they are not



you questioned why multi party systems are better than one party communist systems, and said "well said" to someone who suggested "small govt"


Bonus points there fella



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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I suppose this entire on-the-ground news report was completely made up?




edit on 5-6-2011 by Cryptonomicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
 


teinemen square, kent state... those were tough times for all of us.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by Cryptonomicon
 


those are great videos



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by Cryptonomicon
 


Didn't you know, it was all staged by a zionist mossad agent with links to the ilegal importation and exportation of christian human organs that were removed during an ancient jewsih ritual that also involved the eating of christian babies slowly roasted in butter and garlic and plastered with a coating of Hummus?

ONTOPIC

Those videos bring back some horrible memories as I remeber watching the NEWS on the nights that the protests started building up back when I was 12. I bet you a million dollars 99% of the people in China have never even seen those images or videos, and if they attempted to show them were probably either shot or taken off to prison.


edit on 5-6-2011 by Jocko Flocko because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 08:40 PM
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reply to post by Cryptonomicon
 


The great Wikileaks has spoken, never question anything they report their every word is truth.


Nothing but reports from the Ministery of Truth. If they say it is so it is.


Raist



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by Cryptonomicon
 


The great Wikileaks has spoken, never question anything they report their every word is truth.


Nothing but reports from the Ministery of Truth. If they say it is so it is.


Raist


Why, is Wikileaks not credible?

Maybe you people who think wikileaks is some psyop campaign need to step back and breathe for a moment.
Frankly, I think all those naysayers who can't get on board with wikileaks and anonymous are just afraid to do anything. They have been provided a path that can organize an entire global resistance to the establishment and they claim "oh, they must be CIA so I'm just going to sit on my ass and bitch some more".

This is my era, my generation. Anonymous and wikileaks are two international movements that I never thought I would ever see, but they are here. They provide opportunity. It doesn't matter who is behind them because they are provoking rational thought among all capable-thinking people the world over.

People have been getting the message forever. Now, especially with something like anonymous, we are ALL able to step onto the frontlines of the class war. We don't need faces or names, just information and action.

What do we have to lose? What better time than now? What better place than anywhere?



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:07 AM
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reply to post by Cryptonomicon
 


those are the reports from BBC aren't they not? which i recall BBC was very anti russian,anti china back in the early 80s,90s.


And i assume you believe the mainstream news claim that rebels are really libyans fighting for there freedom?

The rebels are hired western terrorist goons.





Those videos bring back some horrible memories as I remeber watching the NEWS on the nights that the protests started building up back when I was 12. I bet you a million dollars 99% of the people in China have never even seen those images or videos, and if they attempted to show them were probably either shot or taken off to prison.



thats the problem, you believe everything you see on the news as a fact? and without ever asking,questioning the authority why have all these supposed pro western revolutions have happened right on Cue?


Just look now at greece,spain,pairs,Portugal why aren't the BBC reporting any of the protesting?

simple because the boss of the mainstream news outlets dont have any interest of showing the public any protests or revolutions that are agaisnt pro western polices, ideals.


But if you have a saddam type leader, communist party running the country you can be sure the mainstream news dogs will jump right on the news to broadcast it in selected places of the protests.


dont forget ATS China is a nation of 1 Billion people.


edit on 6-6-2011 by Agent_USA_Supporter because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:31 AM
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Just noticed this on the daily history column of -------------------------:

"Jun 4 1989

Chinese troops, firing a few warning shots, manage to push tens of thousands of student protesters out of Tiananmen Square without killing any of them. This changes once they're out of the Square, however. In the end, hundreds of unarmed citizens on the streets of Beijing are massacred by the army. Later, several leaders of the pro-democracy demonstration are publicly executed. "

Dunno how many people from ATS go to that site but this is what they've had on there for years (even though it only shows up a few days per year, they also have a database for historical events and other stuff). Usually they're pretty blunt in their content on this site. I just find it interesting that the wikileaks article claims the same thing that ------------------------- has had posted for like a decade.

EDIT: wow, didn't know typing up the name of a website invokes censorship here

edit on 6-6-2011 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:54 AM
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china will never tell the truth about that.

the only people that know are the parents and relatives of the official dead and missing.

yes, still no accounting of them from the gov.

the student leaders are still being hunted.

every year in HK, is a protest. can't do that there.

hundred or so soldiers were killed and only 300 unarmed students????

lol! guess we don't have to worry about china being #1, eh?


i don't care for wikileaks.



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 02:19 AM
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I don't know how true this article is, in fact I didn't read through most of the posts. All I remember back in highschool we had an exchange student who experienced tianaman square massacre first hand. Everytime someone brought it up, her tears would start up.

To me, that was enough proof that whatever happened there was not fun and games; it was an experience that seemed to shake her up a lot (mind you, this is about 1 year after the event). At that time, I don't think she had any reason to fabricate anything, and those emotions sure seemed real. I'm 32 now, and I still remember sitting in study hall, first hearing about Tianaman Square like it was yesterday.



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 03:37 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 






you either lie or forget what you write, you continually accuse me of listening to govt/media bs, even though I have put you straight on several occasions



You have not "put me straight" on anything. And yes, i was making asumptions, and thats why i asked you straight. Anything wrong with that? And the only reason i made those asumptions because you were coming out with typical stuff that many propaganda whores say, esp one who have been brainwashed to think communist. countries are the devil, and can never ever work





Who is as bad as each other? Communism is always at the WORST end of the scale, never forget that


How the hell is it? So, western countires going into the middle east and kill thousands of people is not as bad? When you going to realise that it is all bad. Please tell me what country China has gone into and basically took over with force, killing thousands of people? No, they have not. China's problem comes from inside its own country. And while still bad, i just don't know how you can say its wose than the wars that westerns have caused, and still are causing.




point me to where I suggested otherwise


I don't, im just telling you




Yes, but you singularly miss the point that Communism in principle makes this more likely to happen and has a more or less 100% proven track record of doing so when it leaps from a text book


So, in your eyes, it can never work? Even though China is on the up, and basically has eceryone by the balls, you think it can't work. Yes, like i said before, and i will say it again, they have issues within their own country. They need to really work out their human rights problem, and other things. But, i am sure they can, and will do this. They have come leaps and bounds in the last 20 years, so why will this not continue?




It is not a question of belief, I am aware that westerners live in China and have stated so, there is just not a significant minority of them there, we are not talking tens of millions for example (bearing in mind this is a country of one billion plus)


Im not saying there are millions and millions of westerners living in China. Im saying there is alot. Everywhere i went in China, i saw many westerners. In Beijing alone there was many. The friends i made from China, who are from the uk, had been living there for years and def would rather live in China than the uk because its safer in China. I felt safer in China.




Move outside the cities Mr China man, and read a little, you waffled about google earlier, go google it


iI don't have to google it, as i have seen some of it. My wife was brought up in a small town on the border of russia and north korea. I have been there three times. And while life is different than in the cities, and while my wifes family were poor, they always had food on the table, they always had a roof over their heads, and they always had water, heating etc. While you will get people with no money, living in crappy places etc, its not as bad as you have been told. I have seen it, you have not
I am not saying there are no people living in China like that, just not as many as you think.




Let me get this straight, you are not a communist, but question why having a choice is better? Seriously?


You only get to vote for the party you want in Charge, thats it. Whats so great about that when the party you vote for, gets elected, and completly changes their plans once they are in. Oh yeah, that choice is great. What the point in choosing a party, that are all the same? They make a habbit of just disagreeing with eachother, thats what they do. Im not saying that communist is better, i never have done. I have said they are all as bad as eachother, and they are.




I do not support war in the middle east and do not care if they are the next super power- it shows how stunted their system is that a country with over a billion people is not already the superpower, because, once again, most people live much poorer than their western equivalents- the only thing I will concede is that at least they have some social order which is sadly lacking in the west


Shows how stinted their system is lol. You think that they should have been superpowers overnight as soon as they became communist lol Remember, remember, China is the oldest Civilisation in the world. They don't plan for the next ten years, they plan for the next hundred years.




I do, there you go with those false assumptions again


Well, you have fooled me into believing that you don't




I am aware of this and I agree, and I hope they improve further and move away from their repressive one party communist state with neither free right to assembly, protest, judiciary, media etc


Sorry, but thats not going to happen. As for the right to protest, judiciary, media etc that is something they def have to change, and i am sure they will in the long run, just like other things that have changed in China




see above about communism, and again, at least Americans have more sources of income and freedom when arrested, freedom to protest etc (however imperfect) which Chinese people do not


America is on the brink of going under. Americans are losing their jobs, Americans are having these so called freedoms taken away from them. Americans have been brainwashed with patrioism that tells them its ok to invade other countries because you are doing it for your country. Don't you get it yet! You ask alot of Americans how they feel about there country at the moment, and see what they say. But its not just America, its everywhere.




Step off the assumptions, my kith and kin should not be dying in those hell holes


Well, they are dying in those hell holes. Take Iraq as an example. We went into Iraq to get rid of saddam ( so they say) and free the Iraq people. Iraq is in fact a worse place now, with still many people dying each day. We have alot of blood on our hands





What I was doing was putting your point that because you had been there, and weirdly think China has a better system than the UK, that it does not trump the obvious facts and two can play that game, I know several people who left China for asylum reasons- British people are not fleeing to China for asylum



So, if China is so bad, then why are western people living there, and loving living there? If life is so bad in China, surely they would have left?




Two points- they are not fleeing a repressive regime, whilst the opposite is true for those coming from China, HENCE they seek asylum. For sure there is business oppportunities for well connected westerners, but we are not talking about a mass flow of westerners living in China- once again, give me these numbers, you seem to think there are huge numbers of westerners there- China has a population of one billion plus, would westerners even make up 1% of the population?



Like i said before, alot of people want to come and live in the UK because its so damn easy to live here. But that i mean you get get most things free once you are here. Hence the reason why our country is going down hill fast. and hence the reason why we can't handle all the people coming into this country. Example, how many other countries have things like the NHS?

As for the numbers of westerners living in China, i don't know that. I can only tell you what i have seen while living in China. Its not like i saw the odd westerner here and there, i saw many.




Our imperfect system, whilst better than China, needs improving, must I repeat my disgust for the lib/lab/tory consensus


But you are talking about this choice we have when it comes to our governemnt. What choice? We have a choice to elect parties that are pretty much the same, and spend most of their time disagreeing with eachother. Well, thats great that is!
what a choice!




You are indulging in too much Chinese communist worship, think for yourself man, blaming the massacre on the students themselves ffs


I have not once said i love communist . I have always stated that governments are as bad as eachother, and in their own way, have done terrible things. I have not stated once that the students were to blame for the massacre, as no one deserves to be massacred. Read what i said! That day was a horrible day, and i believe that there were many factors that turned this into what it was. Because i said the police were attacked and killed too, does not make it right!




Don't get angry because I don't agree with your Chinese communist love in, settle yourself, though with that sort of totalitarian attitude, you might shoot up the ranks of the communist party comrade, dealing with counter revolutionaries like me!



There you go again, putting words in my mouth. Please tell me were i said i loved communist? The differnce between you and me is, i see how they are all bad, and as bad as eachother. Obviously you don't.




Nothing wrong with the term "some"- the next step up would be "many", and I doubt there are tens of millions of westerners living there............


Er no, there are many




you questioned why multi party systems are better than one party communist systems, and said "well said" to someone who suggested "small govt"


Bonus points there fella


Sigh


Please read my posts very very very carefully!



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 03:46 AM
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reply to post by Jay-morris
 


dont bother to debate with these disnfo agents, Jay i agree with you on this




You only get to vote for the party you want in Charge, thats it. Whats so great about that when the party you vote for, gets elected, and completly changes their plans once they are in. Oh yeah, that choice is great. What the point in choosing a party, that are all the same? They make a habbit of just disagreeing with eachother, thats what they do. Im not saying that communist is better, i never have done. I have said they are all as bad as eachother, and they are.



Just like Bill Clinton,Bush obama and the Canadian prime minsters they are all the same, follow the same elite agenda theres no difference what party they belong to if they share the same agenda, the same goes for the euporean elected pro western leaders.

No difference i wonder when will some of people ever wake up and realize that?



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 07:21 AM
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Originally posted by Agent_USA_Supporter
reply to post by Cryptonomicon
 


those are the reports from BBC aren't they not? which i recall BBC was very anti russian,anti china back in the early 80s,90s.



you think you know lots but you don't ha ha, the BBC has been left wing for decades



edit on 6-6-2011 by blueorder because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


If you think the BBC is left wing then you don't know what left wing is. Left-minded people in the west aren't involved in the media unless portrayed as rioters, commies or terrorists. If you see someone claiming to be left wing in western media, they are probably actors reading from a script like everyone else in western media.



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
 


I just look at what is handed to us and go with my gut on credibility.

They have never handed anything extremely useful to us and I find them to be as credible as any government agency or state run media. Facts are they did not produce evidence of stories from citizens but evidence of state run media and government accounts. You can choose to believe government lies all you wish.

As for you generation and all the other blah, blah, blah stuff you can have it. You will learn that you politicians and those placed in power are just as corrupt as the last generations was and the one before that. You can live in fairy land with rosy glasses all you wish I will not stop you. In fact when we are all screwed I will even not say I told you so. One reason is I will be busy making sure my family gets by and possibly some friends as well.


This utopian ideology that people insist is going to come because of anonymous or wikileaks is just that, nothing more than a dream. They are feeding you stuff that means little to take your eyes off the big picture.

If anonymous was all that they would have gotten some real information or given all those who need it help though their "powers". Instead they want to play with game places and things like that. Yeah go after Sony forget helping the world. Wikileaks, what good have they really given us yet? Where is the real stories even if they official was true on things like JFK, 9/11, or many other big hitters. They could give people so much stuff. They could have put it out there all the politicians that are in the pockets of those with the money. However, they hand us crumbs to keep you interested.

If either are worth the time they would produce something to show whose side they really are on. If they were on our side they would take the heads (not literally) of TPTB and hand them to us on a platter.


I love dreams, but I also need to focus on reality.


Raist



posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


More from article:

""He watched the military enter the square and did not observe any mass firing of weapons into the crowds, although sporadic gunfire was heard. He said that most of the troops which entered the square were actually armed only with anti-riot gear – truncheons and wooden clubs; they were backed up by armed soldiers," a cable from July 1989 said.

The diplomat, who was positioned next to a Red Cross station inside Tiananmen Square, said a line of troops surrounded him and "panicked" medical staff into fleeing. However, he said that there was "no mass firing into the crowd of students at the monument". "

So it turns out that the Tiananmen massacre was another Western fabrication. It was even standard education to be taught this when I was in highschool.

It's hard to trust anything about modern history...

[url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html]www.telegraph.co.uk[ /url]
(visit the link for the full news article)




CBS Dan Rather was there reporting live, could he have gotten this story wrong? Oh wait, that is the same guy who was pushed out for getting the story wrong on the eve of a national election.



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