Science fails to exclude God

reply to post by randyvs


Of course, belief that the world is going to end anyway is a large portion of the cause behind a lot of the problems currently facing theworld.

People starving? GOD'S WILL! They're going to die anyway, so what? besides, it makes jesus coem faster!
Bombs tearing people apart? Meh, who cares? Just nother sign of prophecy coming true, we're helpless to not drop those bombs; it's part of god's plan!
Rampant destruction of the environment? We won't need it later, because the world's going to end any day now. besides, god will be upset if we didn't use it all up!

etc, etc.

This sort of ignorant, apathetic fatalism of which you seem a vocal adherent, is pretty much why we're in the fix we're in. congratulations, you've ruined it for the rest of us. You and your other Eschatology-humping buddies.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


The end is coming soon(TM)!

The slogan believers have been using for hundreds of years...we're still waiting

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


But you're completely wrong about that Fox. Gods message to us in the Bible directs us to do the exact opposite of everything you just mentioned. Jesus Christ lived his life and is the only model for us to live by.
From what I know of you Fox, you are not one who likes being wrong. What you say in your post is just that.

Originally posted by Flint2011
reply to post by bogomil

 

Or perhaps you but no matter. We have good intentions here. At least I think we do. No harm, no fowl. People cannot always agree with one another or communicate everything they desire to. We make the efforts and that more than some do.

No hard feelings on my part, and possibly my blame for communication-problems. Such is not issues for me.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

But you're completely wrong about that Fox. Gods message to us in the Bible directs us to do the exact opposite of everything you just mentioned. Jesus Christ lived his life and is the only model for us to live by.
From what I know of you Fox, you are not one who likes being wrong. What you say in your post is just that.

It's somewhat significant, that all the 'TRUE' christians can't agree amongst themselves on, exactly how that role-model is supposed to be.

It is the same ignorance their father has that drives them today, hence they deny God: their sensibilty has been covered with insensibility. Any one that seeks to understand what I just said can read it up at Revelations:the secret of life, as revealed to John by the Only-begotten Light; you will find this in OFF TOPIC: Religion, Faith and theology.

Find peace by seeking the Truth!!!

reply to post by Olise


Bible prophecy, has nothing to do with how those who truely try to follow Christ, are supposed to live their lives.
I am absolutly certain that I have never said, "the end is near" in my own words. At the same time I can't help
but point out, when prophecy correlates perfectly with todays events. No one gets upset with hopi prophecy tho do they ? It's never my intent to promote fear. Just trying to deny ignorance. It's the refusal of many to see that as the truth that it is. The problems are mans. Not mine, not Christians, not Gods, not yours, not the Bibles ! They are mankinds problems and no one else's. The blame is with all of us and how perposterous it is for anyone to suggest anything else. Sorry if that ruins peoples lives but that is the truth.

Sorry if that ruins peoples lives but that is the truth.

I agree that mankind has problems. Religion is still a big part of that. A lingering vestigial relic of the dark ages. One of the great shames of modern society is that deluded people still forcefully indoctrinate (brainwash) the young and impressionable into bizarre religious/ doomsday cults. Not only happy to do it, but quite proudly pass on their own delusions and neurotic phobias. The same people would cry foul if Scientology, the Orange People, Theosophists or the thousands of other cultish groups were given such access. Yet there is no real difference. In fact, Christianity is even more ridiculous and bizarre than many.

This would seem closer to the truth for most with a genuinely enquiring and open mind and at least a few brain cells to rub together. Unless of course you truly can substantiate any of the claims of your religion? Virgin birth, a chap who was both his own father and his own son (WTF?) who got his own mother pregnant to give birth to himself, zombies breaking out of tombs, people resurrecting after 3 days, a supreme magical psychotic in the sky, walking on water etc. This is being kind, if we were to start on the old testament............. Though you probably can't do that, as there is absolutely no way you can verify the central character (as portrayed in the good book of exaggerated myths and outright lies) as having even existed.

Once again..........


Delusion - A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated and is held with very strong feelings or opinions and expressed forcefully.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

the young and impressionable into bizarre religious/ doomsday cults.

You mean cults headed up by atheists like Jim Jones, who pretend to be Christians to suck people in ? Atheist wolves in sheeps clothing ? Who then in turn are pointed to by other blind followers of atheism ? To say now see what Those blood thirsty Christians did ? I mean really, your rederick is fascinating, humorous even. Atheism really does know no humility at all.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

 

the young and impressionable into bizarre religious/ doomsday cults.

You mean cults headed up by atheists like Jim Jones, who pretend to be Christians to suck people in ? Atheist wolves in sheeps clothing ? Who then in turn are pointed to by other blind followers of atheism ? To say now see what Those blood thirsty Christians did ?

I mean really, your rederick is fascinating, humorous even. Atheism really does know no humility at all.

edit on 10-7-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-7-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

An inner-christian (long-lasting and often violent) conflict about who are the 'true christians', now brought up to discredit the whole group of atheists. You'll have to do better.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

 

the young and impressionable into bizarre religious/ doomsday cults.

You mean cults headed up by atheists like Jim Jones, who pretend to be Christians to suck people in ? Atheist wolves in sheeps clothing ? Who then in turn are pointed to by other blind followers of atheism ? To say now see what Those blood thirsty Christians did ?

I mean really, your rederick is fascinating, humorous even. Atheism really does know no humility at all.

edit on 10-7-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-7-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

That really is quite a stretch Randy. You appear to be intelligent enough, that I doubt you actually believe that.

So now atheists in disguise are heading up Christian religious cults, to make Christians look bad?

I was talking about the many, often contradictory though always bizarre mainstream Christian religious cults in this instance. Though you could probably insert the name of any other fanatical man made religion. Especially if they seek to indoctrinate young minds, give false promises, tell blatant lies, use fear based manipulation, impose false morality,revolve around power and money, stifle education and genuine science etc etc etc.

I don't consider myself a genuine Atheist. I don't claim to know the ultimate nature of existence. Though when it comes to obviously fake man made superstitions/ religious cults dedicated to a fairy tale, I am as Atheist as it gets.

I am also happy to fascinate and amuse you. Though what I would prefer to do is to make you question and apply a little critical thinking.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

I was talking about the many, often contradictory though always bizarre mainstream Christian religious cults in this instance

Exactly like the Peoples Temple.
I simply submit to you that no true follower of Christ would commit the abominable act's of Jones.
Intelegence ? It dosn't take much to find and see there is evidence to that. I don't just believe it. I know it.

reply to post by randyvs

I take your point that you feel not all who claim to be Christians, are so. Though this would make them misguided Christians, not Atheists. Not an uncommon condition for Christianity, which has a long and sordid history of misguided followers that continues to this day. The crusades, the inquisition, missionaries wiping out cultures are some of their more spectacular religious "successes".

Yet it seems Christians are misguided by definition, as are all who believe wholeheartedly in a lie. The potential for disaster is always there when people who already suffer delusions, become fanatical. Jones particular cult is an interesting one, did you know his group originally also did good works and offered racial integration ahead of general religious community acceptance. Good old Christian charity. You can disown him if you like, yet he will remain one of your bretheren. A good example of paranoia based delusional belief (religion) taken to the extreme. The study of cults and cult psychology is an interesting one. Cult members can see the truth of other cults, but never their own. As I once read from a leader of such a group, as if to illustrate the point, fish never see the water they swim in. It is quite ironic that many cult watch groups are also Christian. Ironic because they themselves belong to a cult dedicated to superstitious paranormal belief and ritual magic practices. What sets them apart from practitioners of things like Voodoo is simply the belief that the unfounded myth that inhabits their imagination is right and all others are wrong. That their unfounded myth should supersede all others. This is the effect religious cult indoctrination and brainwashing can have on the psyche.

When people make various ridiculous claims about a certain figure returning, it reminds me of the same story told by certain melanesians.............John Frum, he will come. Enjoy the cool-aid.

We are back to square one of this thread, where the author without much discrimination picks and chooses between various positions, and then use those most suitable for his/her 'answer', by letting these positions be representatives of a group (or groups), he/she constructs for the purpose.

This way practically ANYTHING can be 'demonstrated', but actually only leading to pre-concieved conclusions.

reply to post by bogomil


This is not uncommon for indoctrinated cult members. In all instances cult doctrine holds sway, it is seen as infallible. Logic and critical thought are bypassed. Evidence based conclusions are a no no if they conflict. The conclusion/belief (god, John Frum, Sphagetti Monster, whatever) is the important thing and all evidence, thought and opinion must be made to fit or rejected out of hand. Facts are often "reverse engineered" to suit. Any philosophical position that can support the conclusion is accepted, there is no conflict in change of position this way.

Well known and observed scientific facts, the knowledge of medicine, biology, history, archaeology etc are all discounted in favour of ancient mythical superstitious belief. It is part of the "always right" cult mentality.

Agree with me= I am right.
Disagree with me and you are simply an ignorant being fooled by Satan. Disagreement amounts to you persecuting Christians = I am right.
Show me proof - Magic overcomes any genuinely observed and documented knowledge anyway = I am right.
Show me harmful instances as example (Jones, Koresh, The Inquisition etc) - These Were athiest in disguise = I am right.
ie. I am always right and there can never be a situation where I won't be.

It might be true that notions of God, Christ cannot be falsified as they are not yet within the remit of science. Yet their rumoured portrayal in the so called "good" book has been falsified as a corollary, by extension. There may have been a Christ figure (in itself unsubstantiated), there may be a God. The rumoured ones portrayed in the bible however are based on known lies. The rest is largely unsubstantiated ancient gossip and the Chinese whispers of superstitious illiterate peasants, collected centuries later in an anthology by politically motivated believers. To become....."the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people".

It would be more apt to put forward (one of the many often conflicting) notions of religion/God as personal faith based belief, rather than a fact of existence. To begin statements with ....In my belief.....In my experience....I feel that..... would be more accurate. There would be no problem there.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum


Where did everything come from then ? If God didn't make it?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

Of course, belief that the world is going to end anyway is a large portion of the cause behind a lot of the problems currently facing the world.

Wow, and I thought it was because of greed and materialism.

People starving? GOD'S WILL! They're going to die anyway, so what? besides, it makes jesus coem faster! Bombs tearing people apart? Meh, who cares? Just nother sign of prophecy coming true, we're helpless to not drop those bombs; it's part of god's plan! Rampant destruction of the environment? We won't need it later, because the world's going to end any day now. besides, god will be upset if we didn't use it all up!

Yeah, you pretty much just made that up.

This sort of ignorant, apathetic fatalism of which you seem a vocal adherent, is pretty much why we're in the fix we're in. congratulations, you've ruined it for the rest of us. You and your other Eschatology-humping buddies.

Et tu Nero?

I have a few questions for you.

Where did all the pollution come from? Did Science create it, or did God?

Who created the nuclear bomb, scientists or clergymen?

Are Christians or Scientists responsible for genetically modified foods?

If all people followed the Bibles guidelines on morality, what would happen to the AIDS epidemic?

Is it the Bible or the Mass Media that promotes materialism and consumerism?

Do multinational corporations adhere to a policy of "loving your neighbor as yourself", or do they seem to follow a "survival of the fittest" mindset?

Did Christians or Scientists invent High Fructose Corn Syrup?

Which system seems most fair to you? The current practice of high interest rate loans to poor people by lending institutions today, or what is found in Exodus 22:25 ?

25 “If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not treat it like a business deal; charge no interest. 26

Link


BTW Randy,

Science does fail to exclude God, in my opinion.

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum


You wrote:

["It would be more apt to put forward (one of the many often conflicting) notions of religion/God as personal faith based belief, rather than a fact of existence. To begin statements with ....In my belief.....In my experience....I feel that..... would be more accurate. There would be no problem there."]

Being a rather steady critic of invasive missionary activities and tactics myself, I have actually suggested such (as you write above) to my opponents several times, when the persecution-of-christians gambit manifests. Ofcourse never with any response whatsoever.

A missionary has self-imagined 'privileges', so it's only right, that he/she preaches/gives sermons, whereas it's deeply wrong and immoral to oppose such a missionary use of a forum.

I have also suggested a debate on the difference between what's 'offering' and what's 'pushing'. The same silence.

I have even gone so far as to claim, that the invasiveness (usually inverse to the amount of rational arguments used) of christian missionaries, in the context of contemporary society, mainly has the opposite effect of the desired, ranging from scaring people away to labelling christians in derogative ways.

It's as if the missionary christians lost the ability to communicate with general mankind a century or two ago.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum

 

Where did everything come from then ? If God didn't make it?

From Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu ofcourse. Where else?

If you're interested in the esoteric version of that (this is the exoteric), I am at your service also.

reply to post by dusty1


You wrote:

["BTW Randy,

Science does fail to exclude God, in my opinion."]

Not more than Randys has failed to exclude the flying spaghetti monster. (Or the tea-pot on Saturn claim).

A statement not quite so nonsense-like as it may seem at first. If it still seems nonsense-like after some consideration, I can suggest making yourself acquainted with what's called 'agnostic' and 'gnostic' positions.

If you do, you will be a great example to christians and theists on this thread, who sofar have refused, because introducing rational elements may limit the preaching-options.