Science fails to exclude God

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
Delusion - A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated and is held with very strong feelings or opinions and expressed forcefully.


en.wikipedia.org...

That pretty much sums it up. The thing is, people are at freedom to delude themselves as much as they want to if it makes them feel good. It's a free country.

It stops when they try to influence how the rest of us should live based on their delusion. Unless they can objectively back up their claims, they shouldn't be allowed to use religion as an excuse to shape public laws and policies...or even worse, hold back scientific progress.

reply to post by MrXYZ


I agree MrXYZ. Religion should have no influence in shaping any decisions the rest of us have to abide.

Apart from that as you say, it's people's own choice what they believe. Though if people are to proclaim it a truth, it isn't unfair to challenge it.

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
Delusion - A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated and is held with very strong feelings or opinions and expressed forcefully.


en.wikipedia.org...

That pretty much sums it up. The thing is, people are at freedom to delude themselves as much as they want to if it makes them feel good. It's a free country.

It stops when they try to influence how the rest of us should live based on their delusion. Unless they can objectively back up their claims, they shouldn't be allowed to use religion as an excuse to shape public laws and policies...or even worse, hold back scientific progress.

Yes people should be allowed to believe what ever they want as long as they dont force others to believe in something that dosent make sense to them.

I am not forcing anyone to believe what i do. But i like to argue my beliefs with others, maybe i will get some inspiration from other peoples point of view. And maybe see things differently.

The joy with life is the travel you choose to take to reach your destination. That is my motto.

Originally posted by MrXYZ

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
Delusion - A delusion is a belief that is either mistaken or not substantiated and is held with very strong feelings or opinions and expressed forcefully.


en.wikipedia.org...

That pretty much sums it up. The thing is, people are at freedom to delude themselves as much as they want to if it makes them feel good. It's a free country.

It stops when they try to influence how the rest of us should live based on their delusion. Unless they can objectively back up their claims, they shouldn't be allowed to use religion as an excuse to shape public laws and policies...or even worse, hold back scientific progress.

I also want to join the merry group of liberals here by adding my support of the above. But the recent development on ATS in the theist camp has shown me something. Theists appear to be unable to grasp the basic principles of liberalism.

When their missionary efforts are opposed, many of them seem take it as an attack on their personal faith and their right to have a faith. That I can join a forum with the intention of defending general liberal principles, but without any intentions of converting anyone is outside their own MO, and critics of missioning are believed to be missionaries also.

Originally posted by randyvs
reply to post by bogomil

 

I'm saving all my explanations to you for a superduper climactic end to the thread. Which upon reading you will immediatly convert to Christianity and be left with drop jaw.

Stay tuned.

I'm still eagerly awaiting for this grand finale (which hopefully will be less about my character-deficiences, than what this thread is about).

If u go to any country in africa and ask if god exists they would agree he does. I've been readin your replies to certain topics on religion & its sad cause u guys think u know it all but you've got no idea. I live in johannesburg, south africa & this side most people know God on a 1st name basis & those that don't, they know of him. Things that science cannot explain happen everyday; people turnin to snakes, alien objects being found in human bodies - my point is that, evil exists & the only way to fight is through Jesus Christ & everybody knows that here. And dont think i'm some malnutritioned person from some village wit no water either. The devil exists & he fears Christ & no one else. If u wanna know God u reach out to him & he'll lead u to him. But hey, u guys have got your pop culture & hollywood, knowin God is way down on the to-do list for most of u.

If u go to any country in africa and ask if god exists they would agree he does. I've been readin your replies to certain topics on religion & its sad cause u guys think u know it all but you've got no idea. I live in johannesburg, south africa & this side most people know God on a 1st name basis & those that don't, they know of him. Things that science cannot explain happen everyday; people turnin to snakes, alien objects being found in human bodies - my point is that, evil exists & the only way to fight is through Jesus Christ & everybody knows that here. And dont think i'm some malnutritioned person from some village wit no water either. The devil exists & he fears Christ & no one else. If u wanna know God u reach out to him & he'll lead u to him. But hey, u guys have got your pop culture & hollywood, knowin God is way down on the to-do list for most of u.

Originally posted by taly09
If u go to any country in africa and ask if god exists they would agree he does.

I guess that settles it then.

Things that science cannot explain happen everyday; people turnin to snakes, alien objects being found in human bodies - my point is that, evil exists & the only way to fight is through Jesus Christ

No, people do not turn into snakes. There are claims of alien objects, yet claims don't always equal reality. Because science might fail to understand something (as yet), does not mean that we should turn to superstitious nonsense. Realization of ignorance is the beginning of knowledge. I don't understand that, God must have done it...I don't think so. Christ is/was a myth.

The devil exists & he fears Christ & no one else. If u wanna know God u reach out to him & he'll lead u to him. But hey, u guys have got your pop culture & hollywood, knowin God is way down on the to-do list for most of u.

It would be nice if the Devil existed. In contrast to the completely insane, genocidal, sadistic, homophobic, fear mongering, misogynist, proud peacock with schizophrenia and narcissistic personality disorder (God), the devil doesn't ask too much and seems to understand the human condition quite well. I have yet to hear of anyone forcing their beliefs, waging war, wiping out cultures, torturing those who choose not to believe, stifling science etc. in the name of the Devil. Perhaps the Christian view of him is simply based on unfounded gossip, a practice often synonymous with self righteousness. It would be nice to think there is also a place (hell) where people could exist for eternity, minus the delusions and fake morals of religion.

Yet the whole thing has as much reality as Santa, the fairies. These things exist only in peoples beliefs, imagination and delusions.

reply to post by taly09


There is far more evidence that this fellow was the son of God. The simple fact that we know he existed puts him way ahead of the fictional character of the Gospels. Though he also seems to have around 0% chance of being who he claimed to be.

www.youtube.com...

It would be nice if the Devil existed. In contrast to the completely insane, genocidal, sadistic, homophobic, fear mongering, misogynist, proud peacock with schizophrenia and narcissistic personality disorder (God), the devil doesn't ask too much and seems to understand the human condition quite well. I have yet to hear of anyone forcing their beliefs, waging war, wiping out cultures, torturing those who choose not to believe, stifling science etc. in the name of the Devil. Perhaps the Christian view of him is simply based on unfounded gossip, a practice often synonymous with self righteousness. It would be nice to think there is also a place (hell) where people could exist for eternity, minus the delusions and fake morals of religion. The greatest trick ever pulled was the devil convincing the world that he doesn't exist. If u want a detailed explaination of the stuff i've seen & witnessed hit me on my email that's if you're curious enough.

That's . People make it sound like believin in a higher power is just being ignorant. Evolution is not science, its a bunch of unproven theories. Science has never been against religion, evolution has. Whoever disagrees should give me scientific-proven facts that disprove the existance of a creator.

Originally posted by taly09
That's . People make it sound like believin in a higher power is just being ignorant. Evolution is not science, its a bunch of unproven theories. Science has never been against religion, evolution has. Whoever disagrees should give me scientific-proven facts that disprove the existance of a creator.

Your position seems rather uncertain.

But in any case you would benefit greatly from learning the difference between 'gnostic' and 'agnostic' positions in general instead of being unaware of them (something which has been a major problem on this thread from its start).

Then you wouldn't ask questions like: "Disprove 'god' ", which is meaningless and which very few atheists or non-believers would be the least interested in. (Though you can sometimes deny a specific 'god', because of the mundane implications of his/her/its alleged cosmic footsteps).

Originally posted by taly09
That's . People make it sound like believin in a higher power is just being ignorant. Evolution is not science, its a bunch of unproven theories. Science has never been against religion, evolution has. Whoever disagrees should give me scientific-proven facts that disprove the existance of a creator.

Evolution is a fact. Its mechanism (natural selection) is a scientific theory. Religion doesn't influence science, nor should it, observable facts do. Religion often rejects facts in favor of superstitious belief.

It isn't necessarily ignorant to believe in a higher power. It is ignorant to resort to paranormal deity explanations simply because something isn't, as yet, understood. Or even worse, to favor unfounded superstition over what is explainable and understood. This points to delusion.

I see no reason to believe in a god, nor any necessity for such a thing. In fact the world would be a far better place without such nonsense IMO. Particularly the completely man made god of religion. Thankfully he does not exist as a reality, outside of people's imaginations, as he appears obviously to be a completely cruel and insane tyrant in need of usurping. God cannot be proven to not exist, neither can Santa, yet both have all of the attributes you would expect for something that is actually non existent. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.........

I thank you for your kind offer, as I can see that you are genuine. Without wishing to make light of what you claim to know, I lost interest in other peoples versions of the truth long ago. Unless of course they can be substantiated in some way?

Thanks anyway.

reply to post by bogomil


you right, i'm obviously unaware of how things are done here & in retrospect that was a dumb question. My aim here was just to share reasons on why i believe in God. I'd like to think i know enough about evolution to draw reasonable conclusions & i still dont buy it but at the expense of sounding ignorant, can someone provide a fact that cannot be scientifically doubted about evolution. Just one, one you feel carries the most weight. This is not to convince me of evolution but to make me understand why some people are so convinced of it. I know you guys are not obligated but whoever feels like sharin, please do.

Originally posted by taly09
reply to post by bogomil

 

you right, i'm obviously unaware of how things are done here & in retrospect that was a dumb question. My aim here was just to share reasons on why i believe in God. I'd like to think i know enough about evolution to draw reasonable conclusions & i still dont buy it but at the expense of sounding ignorant, can someone provide a fact that cannot be scientifically doubted about evolution. Just one, one you feel carries the most weight. This is not to convince me of evolution but to make me understand why some people are so convinced of it. I know you guys are not obligated but whoever feels like sharin, please do.

Unfortunately I'm not so informed on biology and geology, that I can present much for or against evolution-theory. My own competence (as a relatively well-informed layperson) is with physics and the application of science in metaphysical contexts.

The special interest in evolution-theory has become a mootpoint between creationists and hard-core science-oriented atheists, but is far from THE issue between christianity and science, as it sometimes appears to be. Personally I find other faith/science divergences more interesting, because there really is a 'reality-check' possible (as I have suggested earlier on this thread; an offer the OP author declined on the basis of the religious non-permissibility of such).

The heading of the thread remains true dosn't it ? Science very simply and predictably can not by any stretch of the imagination exclude the possibility of a loving God. That everyone will bow to on the great day of judgement.
I have successfuly shown the shroud makes belief in the resurrection completely plausible not absurd by any means.
It matters not that there is no objective evidence. I don't need to know anything about the nostic or agnostic.
To suggest that I do is just misleading bull crap. I would rather those trying to lead a discussion this way continue to assume I don't know anything and need schooling.

reply to post by randyvs


You wrote:

["The heading of the thread remains true dosn't it ?"]

To my knowledge it does, mainly for the reason which was pointed out early, that it's rather obsolete. You are fighting windmills.

Quote: [" That everyone will bow to on the great day of judgement."]

You have some special reasoning-chains. 'God' is not disproved, so now it's a certainty, that everyone will bow to him. Didn't you skip a few steps?

Quote: ["I have successfuly shown the shroud makes belief in the resurrection completely plausible not absurd by any means."]

Successfully to whom? You appear still to use the christian habit of being both participant and referee and declaring yourself 'winner'.

Quote: ["It matters not that there is no objective evidence. I don't need to know anything about the nostic or agnostic."]

Nonetheless (obviously without knowing, what you're doing), you do flip back and forth between gnostic and agnostic positions, depending on your immediate needs.

E.g. do you claim agnosticism as a protection against the bad scientists, and gnosticism trying to 'prove' your own religious claims.

Quote: ["To suggest that I do is just misleading bull crap."]

It's more likely, that it would be useful knowledge for you in the future. 90% + of the ATS threads on religion run on such a background, which is understood by most of the regular participants.

Quote: ["I would rather those trying to lead a discussion this way continue to assume I don't know anything and need schooling."]

What's so bad about learning something new. And in this case something very simple.

reply to post by randyvs


I believe science should leave the possibility that a creator exists for the sake of not knowing definitively. It really comes down to how mainstream science would define a god/creator. They seem more to reject the existing definition held by most religions.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in any god/creator etc. I know for a fact I don't believe it nor accept it but I have to be honest and say that without being able to define something absolute I cannot absolutely disregard the potential for it either. It's so complicated to balance and acknowledge in certain terms.

Originally posted by Flint2011
reply to post by randyvs

 

I believe science should leave the possibility that a creator exists for the sake of not knowing definitively. It really comes down to how mainstream science would define a god/creator. They seem more to reject the existing definition held by most religions.

I am an atheist. I do not believe in any god/creator etc. I know for a fact I don't believe it nor accept it but I have to be honest and say that without being able to define something absolute I cannot absolutely disregard the potential for it either. It's so complicated to balance and acknowledge in certain terms.

Huh ! That's got to be one of the most sensible evaluations I've come across with in these confines.