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Ancient Aliens Debunked?

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posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by Imtor
Using Wikipedia as a source make your claims weak.


The articles are extensively referenced. It exposes the weakness of your claims that you immediately dismiss my sources without review.


Originally posted by Imtor
Pumapunku is an example of how ancient civs may have had precise methods of cutting or shaping, better even than today's tools.


There's nothing to indicate they had better technology than us. But they did have precise methods for cutting and shaping materials; the only people that is a mystery to are the ancient alien proponents. Their concept of ancient cultures is based on their preconceived notion, not any actual research about the ancient cultures they tell us were incapable of performing the feats they accomplished.


Originally posted by Imtor
If they jump instantly to aliens, I may disagree but I also disagree that they are not right about everything.


So, you think they are right about everything?


Originally posted by Imtor
Even if you take out all the things that are not true and exactly as AAT proponents say, the remaining is still too much to be ignored.


Unless they are wrong about everything. And they are. They have not produced a single fact they are right about. If you have one, please, share it with us.


Originally posted by ImtorAn example I can give is WW2 and Hitler's closest men who were in some cult about contacting aliens. Away from such telepathic things, according to A. Greenfield who met Werner Von Braun, Braun told him that they had help from Them.


I can say anyone told me anything. Anecdotes are not evidence.


Originally posted by Imtor
Actually a lot of the top secret military aircraft are definitely coming from more advanced technology, most likely developed by former-Nazi scientists but they also didn't get a lightning strike on their heads one day?


Why would they need to have received help, when everything the Nazis built was perfectly within the realm of human understanding and technology?


Originally posted by Imtor
I just don't have the time to argue with every single thing that you cannot deny and they are still too many


Too many? You haven't produced a single thing that has been irrefutable or undeniable.


Originally posted by Imtor How can someone even ignore all that exists


Who is ignoring anything? If you have something, present it.

The only people who ignore facts in order to promote their beliefs are the ancient alien proponents.


Originally posted by Imtor
so much that I do not have time to show and look for every single thing...


In other words, you have no evidence to support your beliefs...


Originally posted by Imtor
But hey I know happens - I'd post things here, let's say I had the time for it, you would come with your predefnied opinions from some skeptic forum


Once again, you fail to understand, that because someone is biased or has a predefined opinion, it does not mean they are wrong. If I am wrong, present the evidence showing I am wrong. Instead, you are refusing, preferring instead to discuss my character as a skeptic.


Originally posted by Imtor
none of all that exists as research here, many members did a lot of good gather of information (so why do I need to link anything?)


In other words, we should just accept your beliefs.


Originally posted by Imtor
it still won't be enough for you, you will not stop thinking otherwise, I will not stop thinking otherwise, so why bother?


More ad hominems.

edit on 27-2-2012 by WingedBull because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 03:29 AM
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("AAH" = Ancient Astronaut Hypothesis)

Originally posted by Version100
If a man of Oppenheimer's genius believed it [in AAH]...
Just saying

Oppenheimer was a hoax, he never existed. Neither did Hermann Oberth or any other "smart" guy who made strides in advancing civilization that believed in the AAH. You can't prove they did, I don't see their DNA and apparently everything short of that is irrelevant (unless it's to prove mainstream, then it's ok). Lol, I bet you're one of those people who thinks detective work actually existed before the discovery of DNA.

For those who say "if even 1 case is true then it means the phenomena is real", you think even 1 single example of millions of cases over thousands of years can be true? I never read something so absurd and impossible.

I'm now sure all of this global ancient artwork www.abovetopsecret.com... was done by grunting cavemen who all had a modern sci-fi author's imagination and intellect. Wish I realized that before.

Someone brought up cargo cults, but that's a hoax. www.youtube.com...
A reliable but anonymous source told a friend who then told another friend who then told me that they bribed these tribesmen with Snickers to construct that mock airplane, runway, control tower and ordered them to worship the planes overhead as "giant bird" gods for years on end--through storms and blistering heat.

Yes, a "giant bird" god...because these people apparently had no vocabulary to describe an "airplane" (until some were educated), can you believe it? How ignorant of them. That's like the ancients who called things "flying chariots", or "flying shields". Our ancients sure were stupid. They could build pyramids that cannot be replicated at 1/4th the scale without modern machinery and they calculated the length of the year to the same decimal point as an atomic clock...yet they thought chariots and shields could fly, lol. Autistic savants they must have been.

To top off my post, there's not even life outside of our world. The universe was created just for us. Last year NASA announced "an estimated 2,000,000,000 earthlike planets in our 1 galaxy" www.mnn.com... however, I do not believe there is even 1 and they are trying to scare us. We are special and God only bothered making 1 planet with life on it because he got tired after making the rest of the universe, so you AAH lovers need to get in line. Mainstream archaeologists are ordained by God, they are infallible (the fact there's far more mainstream textbook sales than AAH material is irrelevant too, of course). Now go think for yourself, but not really. Just remember to attack anyone's beliefs that do not correspond with your own until everyone involved is irritated, that's the way of progress.

/parody
edit on 27-2-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 05:12 AM
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reply to post by WingedBull
 


I'm really tired of this.. you are missing the difference between science and possiblity. If you're trying to say AAT is not science because there is no actual proof of aliens, I know this darn well but if you're saying absolutely for sure on the background of all the things that exist about it, that there it is absolutely certain there is no such thing, then you're wrong. Period. Best you can do is think it is possible, while rather not accepting it, but you cannot know it for sure, for me it tells a lot despite the inaccuracies and misinterpretations. No, im not saying they are right about everything, Im saying they COULD BE right about some of the things and the most important:

no matter if you dismiss AAT or not, the possibility of alien visiting Earth now or in the past or just the present is very big, I almost see it as absolute, because saying that everyone is lying, making up things, making money and everyone absolutely everyone even those who died or were chased by gov men, is absurd to think. And because AAT is just - will say again - yet to be proven, it suggests very possible things while not true about some, it could be true about others.

Don't talk about hominem attacks - trying to provoke moderators do something? I'm just saying that since it won't matter what I say, why should I post links? You know, in case I don't offer any links, they are all over ATS, you've made your mind about it, without knowing if all is not true and denying what could be.. OK. What attacks? I'm just saying that the discussion is pointless.

Also by saying 'beliefs' you are actually the one doing such hominem attacks because you put me under the same flag as true BELIEVERS for whom everything on the internet is real.. no I am being objective - I do not say for sure that this is certain, but it is very possible, all im ding is evaulating the existing things, and I just say" It is possible' not - it is so for sure and definitely not 'I know for sure it is not' .. Just because you see discrepancies doesn't mean the rest has to be dismissed either. In everything there is some truth.

If you're saying that all this is expainable and that history shouldn't be revisited on some things, and that you do not think that something is missing in the story... well then, good luck, one day all will know.
edit on 27-2-2012 by Imtor because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 06:58 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


Problem with these guys are that they never consider ANY other explanation than UFO's..



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by TheLegend
 




You can't prove they did, I don't see their DNA and apparently everything short of that is irrelevant (unless it's to prove mainstream, then it's ok).


I see the point you're trying to make and yet you're failing miserably to make it. We have Oppenheimer on film and unlike bigfoot, ghosts and UFOs Oppenheimer isn't a blurred whats-it, he's just a man. We also have records of him working for us and likely any surviving family he has has some of his personal effects. No one ever claimed that ONLY DNA would be evidence of aliens.



Lol, I bet you're one of those people who thinks detective work actually existed before the discovery of DNA.


Last I checked detectives work primarily on DEDUCTION, while from what I can tell AAH proponents typically work on INDUCTION. Either form of reasoning can be flawed however if the evidence doesn't actually point to the conclusion. Let's look at one such ancient alien argument

Premise 1. All ancient gods came down from the sky
Premise 2. Aliens would need to come down from the sky
Conclusion: Therefore accounts of ancient gods are aliens

Can you spot the error in their reasoning, here's a hint: it's premise 1.



was done by grunting cavemen who all had a modern sci-fi author's imagination and intellect. Wish I realized that before.


The issue is not WHO did the artwork or whether they were using their imaginations, the issue is WHAT THEY WERE DEPICTING or representing. People who support AAH like to interpret these pictures as aliens and pretend that's ALL they could be. I'm amazed how unimaginative some of my modern counter-parts can be.



Someone brought up cargo cults, but that's a hoax.


Who said that Cargo Cults were a hoax? The problem is they don't prove ancient aliens. Cargo cults left behind physical evidence in the form of runways and actual cargo, some of the tribes they contacted built mock planes as idols and worshiped them. If ancient people were in contact with aliens did those aliens leave no evidence? Even if the aliens were just extraterrestrial rednecks just cruising for fun you'd think they'd at least leave behind a few alien beer cans.

Ancient alien proponents like to pretend the aliens were everywhere and every-when leaving pyramids and relics and creating whole new mythologies in their wake... so where's the alien landfills, where's the food it would have taken to sustain them, or the technology they left behind? Even alien rubbish would be identifiable as not of this Earth. Some people even like to pretend that the aliens interbred with humans, messed with our DNA in other ways too... no evidence of that has been found either.

The chances of life in the Galaxy are good, but the chance that they traversed that interstellar distance are smaller. Put yourself in their shoes, leaving your home planet with millions or billions of new planets to explore, now what are the odds of them finding the Earth and then spending thousands of years here while leaving behind no physical evidence?



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull

Ancient alien proponents like to pretend the aliens were everywhere and every-when leaving pyramids and relics and creating whole new mythologies in their wake... so where's the alien landfills, where's the food it would have taken to sustain them, or the technology they left behind? Even alien rubbish would be identifiable as not of this Earth. Some people even like to pretend that the aliens interbred with humans, messed with our DNA in other ways too... no evidence of that has been found either.


Right, so I reckon that all that has to happen to get all of you skeptics believing any of the rubbish proposed by the ancient astronaut theorists is for fraud groups like NASA to bring you that "evidence". I mean, hell why not, for it seems that the only thing that matters to the skeptics is debunking the ancient astronaut theory on the obvious grounds that there is no proof of aliens even existing, much less ever visiting our planet. My number one rule in evaluating ANY piece of info no matter its source is to establish its ultmate intent, who would benifit from its dissemination, not in "debunking" it. This whole adventure in trying to debunk the ancient astronaut theory is counter productive, at the moment at least, as it obviously discredits itself by default. It has become obvious to me that this rubbish is being pushed now harder than ever for a political and religious agenda.
edit on 27-2-2012 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-2-2012 by BlackManINC because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 27 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 

The DNA skit was just highlighting how there can be video footage, photos, architectural anomalies, eyewitness accounts, modern high-profile testimonials (most notably astronauts--who also have video/audio recordings), historical/mythological accounts, artistic depictions, government cover-ups, etc. and yet still have people doubting it's even -possible- that aliens came here. When A-Y is eliminated, all that is left is Z (let's say it's DNA and/or a firsthand encounter), so you don't have to say it to indirectly imply it. Will comment on this again further in this post.

If aliens could travel the vast distances here, using some hypothetical topological feature of space-time, they wouldn't be careless enough to leave behind a weapon, a landfill or something akin to OUR schema of "civilization" (which would be potentially harmful to the environment and/or species living on it too).

And in any event, an AAH proponent would just point to the pyramids (the greater ones) as proof enough. There's no official record of the 3 being built, no writings were found on the interiors (you think a pharaoh who "built" it would leave his name), and they can't be replicated at even 1/4th their scale without modern machinery (Nippon Steel Corporation attempted). There's plenty of unlikely features of the Great Pyramids too, e.g. they're at the exact center of Earth's landmass (something 100% impossible for man to have known). Many people mistake the Great Pyramids for just big blocks randomly placed in a desert--these are the people who often don't look deep enough to appreciate their magnitude. The greater pyramids even have an unknown mortar which allows expansion/contraction throughout the year due to temperature variation. The 3 lesser pyramids built beside them (which ARE on record of being built by the Egyptians) are of far less quality, littered with writings, and have minimal enigmatic meaning in comparison. While traversing through them years ago I actually got the sense that what happened was the 3 inferior (and later constructed ones) were built to imitate the other 3 (which are so far superior it's a joke): images.inquisitr.com...
sacredsites.com...
Before anyone points to Khufu building the Great Pyramid, that's incorrect. He did repair work on it so they (egyptologists) labeled him as the "architect" to simplify the unknown. So take that as you want. Another little fact: the "Mayan Calendar" (3k~ BC) wasn't built by the Mayans (2K BC) either.

If you first assume aliens arrive here then you also project their capability in other scientific fields. A thousand years would be inconsequential for any interstellar species. Even we, as humans currently, are on the verge of obtaining biological immortality in the next 15 years. If I were immortal would I care about spending a century or two on a primitive world while being worshiped as a God + I got to experiment on flora and fauna? Nah, not really, but that's just my opinion as a young biochemist.

Don't expect any mainstream media to "prove" it for you either. Get out there, research (much more than watching a TV documentary or two) and physically visit these places to make up your own minds.
I mention the media because I remember seeing a poll and several said they'd only believe in aliens visiting Earth if the news told them to (wow). Well recently I saw these 2 things earlier....
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.youtube.com...

So you can't trust the mainstream media...and never the government (look up Operation Mockingbird and Project MKultra...and of course 9/11 was a joke). So putting those aside (along with videos, etc. and everything else mentioned first in this post) one must ask "what WOULD it take to "prove" to me aliens are or have been here?" And I think the answer for some is "only if I see + fvck an alien myself and get DNA.". I think that's really limited but that seems to be how several people are (or they're so naive to believe the mainstream and will wait until Fox, CNN, or the government tells them "aliens are here"). I'd never take a counter position to something if only a firsthand encounter would be "proof" to me. I also wouldn't discredit someone because they make a profit off their beliefs...because the door swings both ways. Plenty of non-AAH ppl make money off regurgitating the mainstream (especially to schools). It's called making a living and we're all forced to do it to survive. I could go on.

PS using "you" in a general sense through most of this post. I won't be able to get on a PC anytime soon again so ciao ya'll.
edit on 27-2-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 07:26 AM
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reply to post by TheLegend
 




If aliens could travel the vast distances here, using some hypothetical topological feature of space-time, they wouldn't be careless enough to leave behind a weapon, a landfill or something akin to OUR schema of "civilization" (which would be potentially harmful to the environment and/or species living on it too).


But how can you know that for certain? Seems to me like it's just an assumption and its one I have to question. Everything that is not of Earth can be determined to be so, that's how scientists tell the difference between meteors, moon rocks, and Earth rocks. So the idea that they flew around in the sky inspiring stories, artwork and mythology for the ancients for thousands of years without leaving behind a scrap of solid evidence. Sorry but it doesn't seem very likely.



There's plenty of unlikely features of the Great Pyramids too, e.g. they're at the exact center of Earth's landmass (something 100% impossible for man to have known).


The idea of aliens helping people build pyramids makes no sense. Merely because they didn't leave behind writings about the pyramids doesn't mean they left behind no evidence of the archaeological sort. I'm no Egyptologist but I'm pretty sure we would have heard about it if they found anti-gravity devices instead of chisels and ordinary quarries.

Even if you could strip away hundreds of years of archaeology that has taken place in Egypt and even if you discarded the numerous hypotheses on how the Pyramids were built. Even if you were left with an absolute mystery, aliens would still be a poor explanation. You'd still be relying on the Ancient Aliens of the Gaps fallacy, filling in a blank with the extraordinary without having any evidence of that explanation and explaining a mystery with an even further mystery.



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by TheLegend

If aliens could travel the vast distances here, using some hypothetical topological feature of space-time, they wouldn't be careless enough to leave behind a weapon, a landfill or something akin to OUR schema of "civilization" (which would be potentially harmful to the environment and/or species living on it too).


Yet they would travel all these distances to teach humans how to cut granite and limestone, and stack it up?


Originally posted by TheLegend
And in any event, an AAH proponent would just point to the pyramids (the greater ones) as proof enough. There's no official record of the 3 being built, no writings were found on the interiors (you think a pharaoh who "built" it would leave his name), and they can't be replicated at even 1/4th their scale without modern machinery (Nippon Steel Corporation attempted).

Factually incorrect.

Worker's graffiti has been found inside voids in the Great Pyramid that were closed off during construction. These void spaces were only discovered through the use of black powder explosives.

The graffiti mentions Khufu in several different places and contexts.


Originally posted by TheLegend
There's plenty of unlikely features of the Great Pyramids too, e.g. they're at the exact center of Earth's landmass (something 100% impossible for man to have known).

Also factually incorrect, though I'm too lazy to show you why.
You can, however, discover this for yourself, assuming you know how to find the center of "mass" of the continents on a spherical surface.


Originally posted by TheLegend
Before anyone points to Khufu building the Great Pyramid, that's incorrect. He did repair work on it so they (egyptologists) labeled him as the "architect" to simplify the unknown. So take that as you want. Another little fact: the "Mayan Calendar" (3k~ BC) wasn't built by the Mayans (2K BC) either.

While it's true that the Mayan calender is an evolution of the Olmec calendar, it is also absolutely certain that the Great Pyramid was constructed during the reign of Khufu during the 4th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.


Originally posted by TheLegend
If you first assume aliens arrive here then you also project their capability in other scientific fields.

And, of course, this is the fallacy in most fringe thinking.

"If you first assume aliens..." is not any part of a logical argument regarding anything.

I mean, you could also explain everything by saying "If you first assume giant intelligent rabbits," right?

Harte



posted on Feb, 28 2012 @ 09:14 AM
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Yet they would travel all these distances to teach humans how to cut granite and limestone, and stack it up?

If you correlate "gods" with aliens (as is the case with the AAH) then they taught mankind much more than how to build structures that could last thousands of years (and in a way are superior to our own today).

@Workmen's graffit:


The authenticity of the workmen's graffiti in the Great Pyramid is questionable. Alsford and many other authors claim that the graffiti could have been faked. It was known at the time that Colonel Vyse had expended many years and a great deal of money on expeditions to Egypt, but had failed to unearth anything of major significance until his 'amazing' discovery in the Great Pyramid. The Graffiti could have easily been fabricated by copying inscriptions which had already been discovered on other structures and in the quarries nearby. Interestingly, the graffiti was only found in the chambers broken into by the Colonel. The so called Davidson chamber, lying below the other chambers and discovered by an earlier explorer, had no such graffiti. Indeed the rest of the pyramid is strangely devoid of markings of any kind. In the absence of any attempt to radiocarbon date the ‘red ochre’ paint which was used to daub the graffiti onto the massive granite blocks in the relieving chambers, debate as to the authenticity of the graffiti will continue.

www.hallofthegods.org...

@Center of land mass, it is, in plane geometry.


it is also absolutely certain that the Great Pyramid was constructed during the reign of Khufu during the 4th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.

Because of an instance of fake graffiti? Ok, good work. Let's skip over the fact Khufu himself (and everyone during his reign) never claimed to have had a hand in building the 3 greater pyramids. Here's a recorded statement from Khufu:

The Stele describes how Khufu, ‘gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and restored her temple of stone’.

Isis = an Egyptian goddess.... That's the only direct reference Khufu gives. Here's some more of the stele which should end the debate, but I somehow doubt it *sighs*

The Stele finishes with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself, his wife, daughters and other family members, next to the Great Pyramid.

OH, so he mentions building the crap pyramids...but not the 3 magnificent ones? That makes sense!
Who are you going to believe, the pharaoh when he himself doesn't claim the greater pyramids or have any record of constructing them (when there exists plenty of evidence for the lesser ones that he said he DID order construction of)...or a single piece of unreliable (and poorly done) graffiti that was "found" by a very desperate man with no witnesses? Statisticians even show that if Khufu constructed all which modern egyptologists claim he did in the 20 yr span of time given (which includes more than just the Great Pyramids)...a stone (some weigh 50-80 tonnes) would have had to been quarried, moved, carved, and laid every 10 seconds (while maintaining machine-like precision with structural integrity). That's not even physically (humanly) possible.


"If you first assume aliens..." is not any part of a logical argument regarding anything.

In the discussion he was having with the OP, it was. The OP implied that it seemed unbelievable aliens would spend thousands of years on Earth, to first make that assumption of possibility tho you must assume they have the technology to get here first (and if they could first get here then centuries would be inconsequential to their lifespan).

Cheers,
Mason
edit on 28-2-2012 by MasonicFantom because: grammar



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 07:42 AM
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Originally posted by MasonicFantom


Yet they would travel all these distances to teach humans how to cut granite and limestone, and stack it up?

If you correlate "gods" with aliens (as is the case with the AAH) then they taught mankind much more than how to build structures that could last thousands of years (and in a way are superior to our own today).

@Workmen's graffit:


The authenticity of the workmen's graffiti in the Great Pyramid is questionable. Alsford and many other authors claim that the graffiti could have been faked. It was known at the time that Colonel Vyse had expended many years and a great deal of money on expeditions to Egypt, but had failed to unearth anything of major significance until his 'amazing' discovery in the Great Pyramid. The Graffiti could have easily been fabricated by copying inscriptions which had already been discovered on other structures and in the quarries nearby. Interestingly, the graffiti was only found in the chambers broken into by the Colonel. The so called Davidson chamber, lying below the other chambers and discovered by an earlier explorer, had no such graffiti. Indeed the rest of the pyramid is strangely devoid of markings of any kind. In the absence of any attempt to radiocarbon date the ‘red ochre’ paint which was used to daub the graffiti onto the massive granite blocks in the relieving chambers, debate as to the authenticity of the graffiti will continue.

www.hallofthegods.org...

@Center of land mass, it is, in plane geometry.

The Earth is not a plane.


Originally posted by MasonicFantom

it is also absolutely certain that the Great Pyramid was constructed during the reign of Khufu during the 4th Dynasty of the Old Kingdom in Egypt.

Because of an instance of fake graffiti? Ok, good work.

If you insist the graffiti is fake, then you'll need to explain exactly how Vyse knew the spelling of Khufu that was found there.

The name found in the chambers was unknown at the time, but was discovered years later at other locations.

Also, during Vyse's time, it was thought that Egyptian hieratic script (sort of like a "cursive" style of writing glyphs) was developed much later than the 4th dynasty. Yet the graffiti is written using hieratic script.

Like the alternate spelling of Khufu's name found elsewhere, it was decades later discovered that hieratic script developed right alongside the more formal heiroglyphic script.
So, can you explain why Vyse would try to perpetrate a hoax that he himself - and the rest of Egyptology - would instantly recognize as anacronistic?

Can we now claim that Vyse was psychic?

Sorry. You have been lied to by the fringe.

There's plenty of info on this subject here at ATS. While I realize that the search function here is somewhat limited, you can use google to find it. Simply attach this phrase to the end of your search term(s): site:abovetopsecret.com


Originally posted by MasonicFantom
The Stele describes how Khufu, ‘gave to her (Isis) an offering anew, and restored her temple of stone’. Isis = an Egyptian goddess.... That's the only direct reference Khufu gives. Here's some more of the stele which should end the debate, but I somehow doubt it *sighs*
The Stele finishes with the story of how Khufu built small pyramids for himself, his wife, daughters and other family members, next to the Great Pyramid.

Your quote is from one translation of the inventory stele, which dates to a period approximately 2000 years after Khufu's reign.

That is hardly a reference "given" by Khufu.

Originally posted by MasonicFantom

OH, so he mentions building the crap pyramids...but not the 3 magnificent ones? That makes sense!

I suggest you look more closely at what the Inventory Stele actually says:



Live the Horus: Mezer, King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Khufu, who is given life. He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, beside the house of the Sphinx of [Harmakhis] on the north-west of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rosta. He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess, and he built a pyramid for the king's-daughter Henutsen beside this temple.


The Inventory Stele dates to the 26th Dynasty of the Saite Period of Ancient Egypt (672 BC to 525 BC) and likely merely reflects what priests at that time thought.

The temple of Isis mentioned in that stele was actually constructed in the 21st dynasty, which is considered part of what's called the Third Intermediate period of Ancoient Egypt.

The 21st Dynasty covers the time period from around 1077 to about 943 B.C.

The Great Pyramid was constructed around 2600 B.C.

Harte



posted on Feb, 29 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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The Earth literally is not a plane but in spherical geometry (2D mapping of a sphere) it is. Spherical trigonometry is a branch of spherical geometry and it has extreme importance in astronomy and space navigation. That's what I meant when mentioning it is in plane geometry, I should have explained further tho (I'm use to talking to mathematicians and assume people know this).


So, can you explain why Vyse would try to perpetrate a hoax that he himself - and the rest of Egyptology - would instantly recognize as anacronistic?

Already covered why he would.

Egyptologists are renowned for ignoring parts of records (e.g. Inventory Stele) that don't fit their preconceived notions (such as Khufu repairing the pyramids/Sphinx) yet pick out parts in it that strengthen their argument when it fits what they believe.

@the Stele section you quoted, let me break this down logically:

He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, beside the house of the Sphinx of [Harmakhis] on the north-west of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rosta. He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess, and he built a pyramid for the king's-daughter Henutsen beside this temple.

The Stele finishes with the story of how Khufu built SMALL pyramids FOR HIMSELF, his wife, daughters and other family members, next to the Great Pyramid.

So according to these 2 parts, Khufu makes it clear that the pyramid he built for HIMSELF was one of the SMALLER Pyramids. There seems to have already existed a pyramid beside the Sphinx according to these since Isis is the Mistress of "THE" pyramid and the pyramid he builds his smaller ones beside is THE Great Pyramid.

Now anyone who does not want to accept this fact will discredit the stele.


Believe the actual records (the few from the Egyptians themselves), the statistics (someone already explained the impossibility of it) and engineering physics (e.g. Pi was incorporated in the Great Pyramid--something not supposedly discovered until Pythagoras of Samos 2k years later). Do NOT believe Egyptologists. Do you know how that field works? If you make a discovery then you become famous and get financed, if you don't, then you get fired and forgotten. There's far too much motive to be underhanded and none of them care to prove their predecessors incorrect, they rather regurgitate material because it makes their jobs much easier. Easily one of the most unreliable professions on the planet. Also, HOW is anyone suppose to prove them wrong? It's like the translation of the Sumerian tablets and the story of the Annunaki, do you believe in that?

If it cannot be independently verified by a majority of people = it is worthless (on top of the fact that those individuals have huge motivation to lie about their findings). That simple.

Cheers,
Fantom
edit on 29-2-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 07:42 AM
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Originally posted by MasonicFantom
The Earth literally is not a plane but in spherical geometry (2D mapping of a sphere) it is. Spherical trigonometry is a branch of spherical geometry and it has extreme importance in astronomy and space navigation. That's what I meant when mentioning it is in plane geometry, I should have explained further tho (I'm use to talking to mathematicians and assume people know this).

However, when you examine the claim that Giza is at the "center of mass" of the land area of the planet, using the proper geometry, you find that the claim is false.


Originally posted by MasonicFantom

So, can you explain why Vyse would try to perpetrate a hoax that he himself - and the rest of Egyptology - would instantly recognize as anacronistic?

Already covered why he would.

But what you didn't cover is why he would think he could get away with it.

Remember, heiratic script was, during Vyse's time, thought to have developed long after the reign of Khufu.


Originally posted by MasonicFantom
Egyptologists are renowned for ignoring parts of records (e.g. Inventory Stele) that don't fit their preconceived notions (such as Khufu repairing the pyramids/Sphinx) yet pick out parts in it that strengthen their argument when it fits what they believe.

And you are developing a "renown" for ignoring certain facts that negate your claim of a Vyse forgery. To wit - nobody (at that time) knew the version of Khufu's name that Vyse found in the G.P. Ignore this, and sure, you can slander Vyse. But it is factual, so, sorry, but you are simply incorrect here.


Originally posted by MasonicFantom

He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramid, beside the house of the Sphinx of [Harmakhis] on the north-west of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rosta. He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess, and he built a pyramid for the king's-daughter Henutsen beside this temple.

The Stele finishes with the story of how Khufu built SMALL pyramids FOR HIMSELF, his wife, daughters and other family members, next to the Great Pyramid.

So according to these 2 parts, Khufu makes it clear that the pyramid he built for HIMSELF was one of the SMALLER Pyramids. There seems to have already existed a pyramid beside the Sphinx according to these since Isis is the Mistress of "THE" pyramid and the pyramid he builds his smaller ones beside is THE Great Pyramid.

This might be your (or some con man's) interpretation of the stele.

What I quoted states explicitly that Khufu built his pyramid. Given that the stele originates from the 26th dynasty, and all of Egypt, from the time of Khufu until today, believed Khufu built the Great Pyramid (their name for it - loosely translated - means Khufu's horizon for God's sake,) it makes no sense for any 26th dynasty priest or scribe to be re-interpreted today in some way that denies the known beliefs from their time.
IOW, you don't get to use the "the stele goes on to say..." argument.

Please quote the stele itself, where it states that Khufu's pyramid is one of the lesser ones (ones, that by the way, we already know did not belong to Khufu.)

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
Believe the actual records (the few from the Egyptians themselves), the statistics (someone already explained the impossibility of it) and engineering physics (e.g. Pi was incorporated in the Great Pyramid--something not supposedly discovered until Pythagoras of Samos 2k years later).

I do believe the Egyptians. You are the one that claims they didn't know who built what monuments in their own country.

Also, pi was certainly not incorporated into the pyramid. I know the calculation you're talking about - it is merely a result of the way the AE's measured angles.
The calculation you claim is pi is actually the ratio 22/7.


Originally posted by MasonicFantom
Do NOT believe Egyptologists. Do you know how that field works? If you make a discovery then you become famous and get financed, if you don't, then you get fired and forgotten.

"A discovery" includes showing how your predecessors were wrong. Did you know that Egyptology used to have the Old Kingdom dates wrong by over a thousand years? According to your ridiculous beliefs, these dates could never have been corrected.

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
It's like the translation of the Sumerian tablets and the story of the Annunaki, do you believe in that?

They were the Anunna in Sumer. Annunaki is Babylonian.
I've read real translations. If you mean Sitchen, then I see where you're getting your erroneous ideas.

Harte



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
So the idea that they flew around in the sky inspiring stories, artwork and mythology for the ancients for thousands of years without leaving behind a scrap of solid evidence. Sorry but it doesn't seem very likely.

First, it depends on your definition of "solid evidence" (which I assume is objects that WE equate to technology, e.g. a gun, microchip, waste etc.).
Second, that's true it doesn't seem likely...WHEN compared to a human perspective and ability. Like I said before, IF anything has the means to cross the galaxy to first arrive here then they would also be efficient/careful enough to not leave behind anything IF they chose not to (what remnants of tech could they leave behind anyway? A civilization wouldn't use guns, microchips, or produce waste if they had the ability to cross interstellar space). This is just a statement of common sense, I'm not saying it proves anything one way or the other, btw.


Originally posted by MasonicFantom
The Earth literally is not a plane but in spherical geometry (2D mapping of a sphere) it is. Spherical trigonometry is a branch of spherical geometry and it has extreme importance in astronomy and space navigation.

Originally posted by Hart
However, when you examine the claim that Giza is at the "center of mass" of the land area of the planet, using the proper geometry, you find that the claim is false.


(suck at quoting)
Lol, yes...I'm sure there's only 1 form of "proper geometry"



Originally posted by Hart
Yet they would travel all these distances to teach humans how to cut granite and limestone, and stack it up?

More mythology and history you must dwell into methinks, young Skywalker.

Not gonna reply to everything I wanted to, judging from the posts about the Pyramid you rely too much on false (or unverifiable) premises to have a conversation with. Geologists (who point out the water erosion on the Sphinx and impossibilities of carving certain materials when looking at Moh's scale), statisticians (pointing out it was a physical/time impossibility), mathematicians (precision and formulas involved is beyond the people of the time), structural engineers (who can't recreate a 1/4th scale of the Great Pyramid without modern machinery), etc. (aka all VERIFIABLE fields of science) point out there's a huge inconsistency with the Egyptologist view of the Pyramids + Sphinx. You instead believe a bunch of Sitchin equivalents who (blatantly) ignore science and make unverifiable claims among themselves to present the public. I once debated with an Egyptologist who had on his site "The Great Pyramid was the tallest structure until the Eiffel Tower".... And I just did a Google search and it seems many still do! They are proven incorrect way too much on things that are verifiable by independent scientists or measurements (Lincoln Cathedral stood higher for 250 years before its spire was destroyed in a storm).

If you wonder why your low post:star ratio, that's why (no offense intended, you seem well-educated).
I rarely see Sitchin preachers make well arguments too, altho they may be quite intelligent people.

Let this thread die now, it's milked (but I know that's asking for too much, lol).
edit on 1-3-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by TheLegend

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
The Earth literally is not a plane but in spherical geometry (2D mapping of a sphere) it is. Spherical trigonometry is a branch of spherical geometry and it has extreme importance in astronomy and space navigation.

Originally posted by Hart
However, when you examine the claim that Giza is at the "center of mass" of the land area of the planet, using the proper geometry, you find that the claim is false.


(suck at quoting)
Lol, yes...I'm sure there's only 1 form of "proper geometry"

Are you saying the Earth is not a sphere?

I teach geometry. What do you know about it?

Wait, don't answer that. You've already shown us.



Not gonna reply to everything I wanted to, judging from the posts about the Pyramid you rely too much on false (or unverifiable) premises to have a conversation with. Geologists (who point out the water erosion on the Sphinx and impossibilities of carving certain materials when looking at Moh's scale), statisticians (pointing out it was a physical/time impossibility), mathematicians (precision and formulas involved is beyond the people of the time), structural engineers (who can't recreate a 1/4th scale of the Great Pyramid without modern machinery), etc. (aka all VERIFIABLE fields of science) point out there's a huge inconsistency with the Egyptologist view of the Pyramids + Sphinx. You instead believe a bunch of Sitchin equivalents who (blatantly) ignore science and make unverifiable claims among themselves to present the public. I once debated with an Egyptologist who had on his site "The Great Pyramid was the tallest structure until the Eiffel Tower".... And I just did a Google search and it seems many still do! They are proven incorrect way too much on things that are verifiable by independent scientists or measurements (Lincoln Cathedral stood higher for 250 years before its spire was destroyed in a storm).

Not sure about your trivia and I don't care.

However, there aren't a lot of geologists that agree with Schoch. None, in fact, that I'm aware of.
Also, any geologist can tell you that Moh's is not a scale that tells us how hard a stone is. It can only tell us the hardness of the various components.

As was shown, right here in this thread, investigators have actually cut limestone with sand and copper toothless weighted saws.

Are you going to deny the reality of this?

The same researchers have cut through granite with pounding stones.

Will you now put your fingers in your ears and start screaming so you don't have to hear it?

No mathematician, no statistician, and no engineer has made any of the claims you attribute to them above.

You don't get to simply make things up when you don't have any evidence. Erik VonDaniken does that.


If you wonder why your low post:star ratio, that's why (no offense intended, you seem well-educated).
I rarely see Sitchin preachers make well arguments too, altho they may be quite intelligent people.

I was here before the "star" thing was implemented, and I'll be here after it's gone.

If you think I'm here for the recognition of people like you, you should think again (assuming this is within your capabilities.)

The more stars here, the more ignorant your posts. At least in this section.

Harte



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by TheLegend

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
The Earth literally is not a plane but in spherical geometry (2D mapping of a sphere) it is. Spherical trigonometry is a branch of spherical geometry and it has extreme importance in astronomy and space navigation.

Originally posted by Hart
However, when you examine the claim that Giza is at the "center of mass" of the land area of the planet, using the proper geometry, you find that the claim is false.


(suck at quoting)
Lol, yes...I'm sure there's only 1 form of "proper geometry"

Are you saying the Earth is not a sphere?
I teach geometry. What do you know about it?
Wait, don't answer that. You've already shown us.

I feel bad for the students then, "teacher" (lol) en.wikipedia.org...

Rest of your post is not even worth replying to, it just shows you're misinformed and you already demonstrated you're unwilling to change your mind regardless.

Here ya go, "debunk" this amazing hypothesis, it's more your speed (2:51) www.youtube.com...
edit on 1-3-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by TheLegend

Originally posted by Harte

Originally posted by TheLegend

Originally posted by MasonicFantom
The Earth literally is not a plane but in spherical geometry (2D mapping of a sphere) it is. Spherical trigonometry is a branch of spherical geometry and it has extreme importance in astronomy and space navigation.

Originally posted by Hart
However, when you examine the claim that Giza is at the "center of mass" of the land area of the planet, using the proper geometry, you find that the claim is false.


(suck at quoting)
Lol, yes...I'm sure there's only 1 form of "proper geometry"

Are you saying the Earth is not a sphere?
I teach geometry. What do you know about it?
Wait, don't answer that. You've already shown us.

I feel bad for the students then, "teacher" (lol) en.wikipedia.org...

Rest of your post is not even worth replying to, it just shows you're misinformed and you already demonstrated you're unwilling to change your mind regardless.

Here ya go, "debunk" this amazing hypothesis, it's more your speed (2:51) www.youtube.com...
edit on 1-3-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)


Pretty much what I figured.

Incapable of thought.

However, I see that you do know how to link to wiki pages unrelated to the argument at hand, and that you frequent youtube (big surprise there.)

Harte



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by Harte
 


I broke it down into a lil story to help you:

Harte: "I don't see how it's related, forgive my small attention span."
Legend: "Well, the east/west parallel that crosses the most landmass and the north/south meridian that crosses the most land intersect in two places on the earth, one is the Great Pyramid."
Harte: "How is that possible to know when the Earth is a sphere?"
Legend: "Harte, you silly boy... www.e-education.psu.edu..."
Harte: "Man, you are blowing my MIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIND!"
Legend: "Calm down, you'll be ok, It's called spherical geometry. With it we can then get a 2D image of a 3D sphere (in this situation, Earth): mirror-us-ga1.gallery.hd.org... You see, there's multiple forms of geometry, not just 1 as you said."
Harte: "Holy...in all my years of faking being a geometry teacher, I never thunk it possible. I'm sorry for implying Youtube was a bad thing btw. I now realize it's just a medium of public information."
Legend: "Haha, that's ok, we all have our setbacks. *Looks at the camera* and you kids out there just remember, eat your fruits and stay in school! us.123rf.com..."

Note: This story is based on actual events (kinda). Names may have been changed in order to protect the identity of those involved (but not really). This story contains very graphic content (but not really). Viewer discretion is advised (if you're a toddler).
edit on 1-3-2012 by TheLegend because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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The verbal joust between "Harte" and "The Legend" is reminiscent of the great sword fight in "The Adventures of Robin Hood" - brilliant, absolutely brilliant with 'touche' after 'touche' followed by a 'have at you'!
You both deserve a shed load of flags and stars.
Please do not stop.



posted on Mar, 2 2012 @ 05:58 AM
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Originally posted by Harte
And you are developing a "renown" for ignoring certain facts that negate your claim of a Vyse forgery. To wit - nobody (at that time) knew the version of Khufu's name that Vyse found in the G.P. Ignore this, and sure, you can slander Vyse. But it is factual, so, sorry, but you are simply incorrect here.

The Westcar Papyrus discovered in 1823 contained Khufu's cartouche in Hieratic, 14 years before Vyse's "discovery" (1837).


If you mean Sitchen, then I see where you're getting your erroneous ideas.

You missed the point which is you're subscribing to Sitchin equivalents (aka egyptologists).

There's absolutely no evidence the ancient Egyptians built the GP. There's no physical evidence, written records of the GP constructing process, or even logical reason why they would invest decades of blood, sweat, tears, life, and an unimaginable amount of resources into constructing something in a desert which ultimately served no purpose--Khufu's tomb is not inside, there are no hieroglyphs, no treasures, and not even an entrance into it. There's even impossible parts, like supposedly ferrying 70+ ton stones across the Nile (proven literally impossible to do using barges) and highly illogical parts, like 3.5 ft tall "passageways" (I'm sure the average Egyptian was not that short). A bronze age people undertaking such a pointless (and sophisticated) feat is simply absurd. There's also extreme degradation of later built pyramids (which should have superior technique since they're built later, but they do not, which implies either they suddenly forgot how to build pyramids or they didn't build the greater ones to begin with). Interestingly, the Egyptians directly take credit for the 3 smaller, inferior pyramids (and fill them with treasures, bodies of royalty and writings), but not the 3 greater ones.

This doesn't mean aliens constructed the 3 greater pyramids, it just means the Egyptians did not. No proof, no logic, nothing. Don't believe the Sitchins of the sands--everyone has a dollar to make and a future to secure.

Cheers,
Fantom
edit on 2-3-2012 by MasonicFantom because: (no reason given)



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