2000 Year-old NEWSFLASH! Anti-homosexuality is Anti-Christianity; More Accurately Pro-Judaism.

reply to post by TheOrangeBrood

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776 Matthew 19:4-5: "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"

Can you please stop saying this as if it is relevant? He is talking about adultery and this doesn't even remotely relate. Be happy that this mod isn't snipping it for being completely off-topic. If you're going to be the literal-police on the "male and female" term as if he isn't just describing the time when God created man and woman (which is a leap to say the least), then I hope you don't masturbate or use birth control, neither of those are the opposite gender from you.

It is completely relevant. As the old saying goes "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Whether you choose to accept it or not(and you do have the right to not accept God's laws) God is quite clear on his stance regarding homosexuality. You can choose not to accept God's laws. He will not force you. You have free will. However all choices have a cost. It is not for me to collect the cost from you, or to punish you. However, the truth is the truth whether you choose to believe it or not. Your relationship with God is between you and God, but I will not sit by and allow a lie to be portrayed as truth. I will point out the truth and leave you to make you own decision what you do or do not do about the truth.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
As the old saying goes "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

I'm out. Once it gets to EXCELLENT analogies like that I know I'm wasting my time. Good luck with that.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
As the old saying goes "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Ad hominem nonsense. I just told you, that verse he is just referencing where in the creation timeline God set sexual morality regarding adultery, it was at the same time that he created man and woman. Look at the older versions of the excerpt, as well. My explanations parallels, yours does not. Now keep arguing this "point" of yours as if it held any weight... ever.

Whether you choose to accept it or not(and you do have the right to not accept God's laws) God is quite clear on his stance regarding homosexuality.

As he was on Kosher laws... yet you revoke them... why? Jesus never denounced the importance of remaining Kosher. Answer this question or don't bother replying, you're tiptoeing around the relevant points that also condemn YOUR actions, and all I can say about that is "typical".

but I will not sit by and allow a lie to be portrayed as truth. I will point out the truth and leave you to make you own decision what you do or do not do about the truth.

You're the one pushing the lies, here. Posting excerpts about adultery to make homosexuality look bad... and handily leaving out the verse right before which explains the context of the excerpt. Sorry, you shall not pass unscathed with this regurgitated tripe that ruined this religion.

Thank you for only being able to find Jewish laws to try and push your 'point', though; thus proving my title.

I think it was Eric Hoeffer (?) who wrote True Believer and would most likely be nodding his head towards our good friend here who so staunchly defendsHis Beliefs and until he has an epiphany of insight into his trapped in the box thinking,,, it will be like talking to a robot. A True Believer never recants.
I have always thought it sad that people have such a hard time seeing anothers point of view,,, mainly because they do not listen,,, they're too busy thinking what verse to say next...
You know the Bible told them so.
When I was a child I was a reader,,, yep a virtual Bookworm,,, and being in a ''good christian family' one reads the Bible. Over and Over and Over again and again,,,,, then some more.
,,,
It is so good I read and as a child I Asked my Guardian Angel
(My own Brain,, little did I know then) to be my guide.
Hitting home with some Natural NLP,,, I made a breakthrough to my Super/unconscious self,,, some would say.

I understood enough of logic even then to realize that this book is a MindTrap set to explode in some peoples heart like a stick of dynamite. Blows the Sense out of most of the Flock. Sheep will be sheep. Thank God/dess I got the 'real' meaning of the parable of the Wolf.

Thank the Deities,
(Yes Virginia there are more than One Deity,,, Just ask jehovah/yahweh/the Elohim,,,,
[which is a plural word for Gods] ) that I saw the Light..
and the Light shined on these facts.

God is supposed to be Love.
and is,,,, if you let him/her/it. or

God is a Jealous and Vengeful God.

Again,,, if you let him/her/it Be understood this way.

If we,,, like we are told in the Bible are Reflections of him/her/it,,, made in It's Image.

I think that means I have a portion of divinity in me,,, and I would agree,,, and am sure most atheist too would,,,, as we do have Brains. Sure is a masterpiece of God/Evolution/ the Universe Big Banging throughout Eternity's, Creation maybe,, even. If nothing else,,, if you let it,,, it works pretty damn well. The brain is Divine, we could all agree?
Then,,,we,,,,,, (well,,, Damn Eve and Stupid follow the Leader Adam,, (didn't get his kahonies until after the Fall?) well they did eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil,,,,,, that has to point to a brain somewhere in this story,,, right? Except they were slow back then,,, brains being new and all,,,, and didn't grab the Fruit of the Tree of Immortality,,,,, which would have really miffed the deity off,,, and he/she/it even says so in that Book ,,, you so easily could forget,,,, the Bible. Holy? Don't think so,,, my brain tells me so.
Anyway,,,,, I hope No one Leaves this Conversation,,, (it is still a open conversation,,, right/?) because we need the brains here,,, now more than ever.

and Lets all take a breathe and image for a moment just Listening and Opening up.
I too ,,, agree,,, Christians tend to know less about the Bible than pagans and atheist or agnostics,,, but myself,,, I still read what they say,,,, so I can understand how they think (if such is actually happening) and am better able to see how most of the time they are Trapped by ignorance.

What is ATS slogan again?
Something about Ignorance?
I say we can disagree,,, but still learn alot about each other as humans,,, if we first admit the ''other'' we are talking to,,,, is Human,,, Right.

God only knows how those Aliens are having Sex,,,
,, Getting Christians used to Homosexuality is good for the Faith,,, because it might prepare them for some even Bigger Shocks when the day comes that Gggrappp from planet Nixelsnark,,,,wants to have a night with the Whole Family to show his/her/its,,, love,,, and spread the word of His/her/its' God/dess/thingy ma jiggy diety.
He/She/It is a Missionary you know...... spreading the faith.

reply to post by EarthCitizen23


Dear Jesus,,,
I knew no one else would see my letter to you here, but I thought that it was worth the try.

Still Spreading your Love,,,,

and Thanks for not comiing Back Rapturous and all Blondie Like a few weeks ago,,, I knew you said sometime in December 2012,,,, not May 2011.
you always could be counted on for keeping dates with Destiny on time and punctual like. God your Great!

Love always,
Your Heretic friend, (and possible blasphemer)

EarthCitizen23

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
As the old saying goes "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Whether you choose to accept it or not(and you do have the right to not accept God's laws) God is quite clear on his stance regarding homosexuality. You can choose not to accept God's laws. He will not force you. You have free will. However all choices have a cost. It is not for me to collect the cost from you, or to punish you. However, the truth is the truth whether you choose to believe it or not. Your relationship with God is between you and God, but I will not sit by and allow a lie to be portrayed as truth. I will point out the truth and leave you to make you own decision what you do or do not do about the truth.

I'm just curious. Where does Hermaphrodites fit in this little box of yours? It must be exceptionally boring living in a black and white world, completely unaware of all the shades of gray in between. Not to mention gossamer pink, mint frost green, tidal depth blue, lemon crust yellow, njabulo red and not to forget baccarat orange.

Are you sure you know which laws God created and which laws were created by man? And perhaps while you're looking into that perhaps you should read ALL of them, and not just randomly pick those that fit in the black or white boxes?

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Consider that the sin of homosexuality was so horrid that Lot offered to allow the men of Sodom to rape his virginal daughters rather then molest the angels under his roof.

I was ready for this one.

So god is OK with fornication if it suits his purpose? No logic there.

No, Lot was making this call. Not God.

Actually, had there been 20 righteous men in Sodom, Sodom could have been spared.

Right. It doesn't say 20 righteous STRAIGHT men. Thus they were dispatched because they were godless.

Straight is implied, or at least non-sinful.

I still didn't see what I asked for. Jesus in his own words condemning homosexuality. Got any?

To answer your question no specific sermon or story that Jesus may have given about specific homosexual behavior is found in Scripture. Nor does the Bible specifically use the word "homosexual" or "gay" or "faggot" or any other appellation that we would recognize in scripture. But an argument from silence would be wrong. The Bible does not record that Jesus ever mentioned rape, incest, pedophilia, or other blatant sins by name either. But just because Jesus does not mention them, does not imply that we should commit these offenses against God and each other.

Jesus is very clear on the proper marriage relationship as mentioned in

Matthew 19:4-5:
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"

Jesus was also very clear about the concept of sexual immorality been an evil thought from within one own heart

Mark 7:21:
"For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery"

Additionaly Jesus did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it. While Jesus abolished the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament the moral laws of the Old Testament remain applicable.

The Bible also contains specific references to sexual immorality here are some examples; in fact in the Old Testament it was so serious it was a capital offense.

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13
"'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

I Cor 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God"

Jude 1:7
"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire"

So, was Jesus supposed to address each and every single possible sin by name before you would understand the intent? Or could it be that homosexuals(and all other sinners to be sure) are reaching for any possible justification?

Read about Ruth and Naomi. Naomi CLAVE to Ruth. The interpretation of the word "clave" is the same used in the relationship between a man and his wife.

reply to post by intrepid


The men of the day , who wrote the Bible, had no idea that homosexuality could be an "in utero" anomally. No more so than then knew that epilepsy is a disorder, not a demon possession. Epilepsy is treated and controlled by modern medicine and today we know far more about sexual orientation then they could have ever known then.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Love the sinner, hate the sin. There is nothing more or less sinful about homosexuality than any other sin. Sin = Sin. There are no greater or lesser sins in the eyes of God. Lying, theft, murder, sex outside of marriage(homo or hetero) it is all the same.

Let's not forget protected sex, eating McDonalds, and Laser hair removal.

What? Please explain... (Your OP is pretty non-sensical, BTW)

Originally posted by AdamsMurmur


When using the book as an excuse to exercise the above words, most (if not all) of it stems from the Hebrew Bible ("Old Testament"). It's not Christian, it's Jewish. Why is it included? Probably because predicts his coming, is useful for some back-story, and some of it has good teachings, and that good still applies, but not some of its "laws" (like stoning prostitutes and so on) and the things that contradict with what Christ taught.

The OT is speckled with hate, bigotry, ignorance, and intolerance, as you said. It is not a proper representation of Christianity because it's not Christian. It does a good job at confusing people though.

edit on 4/6/11 by AdamsMurmur because: (no reason given)

And angry-atheists love to use the OT to hammer Christians... lots of meaty stuff they can use, and they love to pretend not to understand the existemce, meaning and purpose of the New Testament... (I get the general impression that the OT is considered much more important to American Christians than to us outside the USA. Do you guys even have copies of the NT pubbed separately?

reply to post by Vicky32


"All scripture is beneficial".

I'm not religiouse and i disagree with homosexuality, i can tolerate being around homosexual people as long as they don't bother me, i think homosexuality and religion are equally as bad, both are wrong, both cause problems and both make me feel sick.

This is purely my belief and i'm not afraid to admit it on and off the internet, everyone is entitled to a belief and an opinion.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776

Originally posted by 547000
. To the point where it says none who know Him can sin.

I am not aware of that verse. Can you give me chapter and verse? Peter knew him well and fell prey to sin. We all fall short of the glory of God. There is none who is without sin, no not one. The difference is that we repent and ask forgiveness. We try to live sin free lives, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. We sinners are like recovering alcoholics. You cannot say "I will never drink again" you try to go one hour, then one day at a time. When you fall, you seek his forgiveness; then you get back up and try again.

I believe he's talking about 1 John, where it says that no one who knows God willfully continues to sin. That's the point - the continuing. Although the words aren't used, a pastor I knew said it's something like 'with reckless disregard', I think...
(I am looking for but can't find the precise reference..)
Found it! 1 John 3 v 6 : "6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. "
Bible Gateway

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
reply to post by TheIrvy

 

I do not consider catholicism to be Christianity.

Nevertheless, it is.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776 Catholicism is a religion that worships the pope and various saints and idols.

You're wrong, it doesn't.
I've had this argument with many fundamentalists on ATS. I assume, perhaps too kindly, that they simply need to be told the facts, but like the atheist fundamentalists, they too, won't accept anything they don't want to believe! (Even though the atheists are far worse, as their egos are at stake.)

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood

Romans was written by the Apostle Paul, who was a footlet for turning the Church into a corporation of greed, demanding "tithes" for prayer.

What does 'footlet' mean? Is that one of those sock-thingy made of the same material as pantyhose that some girls wear?
Paul demanded nothing, certainly not tithes.
You claim to have had a Christian education - but what was it really? The Dawkins site and American Atheists?

When Christianity says that homosexuality is wrong,then its wrong,(for them at least)but the only way it can be anti-Christian is if Christians go around judging people for it due to the fact that god basically said that he will judge those at the end and that no others should judge.

I have been on ATS now for a while. Not once have I read a post against homosexuals. The only negative comments I have ever read are against Christians, in judgment of their message. Please link to the threads you are speaking of. Give a few quotes with links so we can all verify what you are saying.

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
So much arbitrary, "moral", hating on ATS as of late.

Let's get a few points out of the way first, for clarity's sake, should you even care:

I have no fuss with Jewish people here, this thread is being created because of people trying to claim some sort of Christian moral high-ground over homosexuals by condemning their feelings and actions and making them feel like they are lesser than heterosexuals.

I am an atheist by education. Two private Christian primary schools "Baptist ("Protestant") and Catholic", one of which we read the entire Bible fully by the sixth grade. I attended a catholic High School, I had one deeply religious parent and one passively religious parent. I grew up thinking I was Christian, was encouraged and enrolled in Ministry school. It wasn't until my second-last semester that an instructor encouraged me to question my faith. I eventually quit and enrolled in Web Design.

Anyways, Christianity is the belief that Christ is the Son of God, and as such, a servant sent by God to show the people His teachings, a vessel to instill the moral fiber of a shaky ancient-Mesopotamian culture. Anyways, here we go, these are all quotes from Jesus Christ:

Mark 12: 28-31

One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'

The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is NO COMMANDMENT GREATER THAN THESE."

"Love your neighbor as yourself", somehow the most misunderstood commandment concerning this issue, yet just as clear as the next.

John 8:4,5

and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.

In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"

Pray, does this not sound familiar to the kind of arguments that "Christians" come up with against homosexuality regarding harsh punishments for homosexuality in Levitican Law?

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

This is not a very cryptic metaphor.

Getting beyond the obvious ones, if a maintenance of "but they are the enemy, the indulgers of sin" is lurking in the ignorance from which it spawned:

Matthew 5: 43-44

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

...

John 3:10-16

"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony.

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

I'll invite any arguments for now.

Do not judge 4 you shall be judged 1 day yourself!!!

reply to post by TheOrangeBrood


When a person is hearing impaired, they cannot hear at all or too well, same for when a person is vision impaired. So what do you think happens when a person becomes morally impaired? (without using religion as the foundation of morals) I would just like to seeyour opinion as to what you think happens to a person who is morally impaired. This does pertain to the topic and I promise to elaborate further if you choose, or for that matter, anyone else chooses to give their opinion.

We get it, you're pro-homo and trying to shove your beliefs down everybody else's throat...forgive the repulsive figure of speech, and will scour to the ends of the earth to "prove" yourself right. You don't believe in the bible but you believe other random "2000 year old" "proof". You deny the intention of nature for man and woman to procreate but believe it is perfectly natural for men to fornicate.

The bottom line is, this mindset cannot be reasoned with. It is a neurotic mindset that is in direct opposition with itself making it impossible to carry on a conversation with. It's much like trying to debate with a rock, except the rock talks back. I suggest you go about your homo business in private like the rest of humanity does with it''s private life and you'll have much fewer arguments.