It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Assisted suicide advocate Kevorkian dies at age 83

page: 3
13
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 09:59 PM
link   
The guy was odd,and these are a few things I didnt know about him..........................

First, it neglects the way in which his own psyche might have colored that view. Kevorkian was utterly fascinated by death. His mother had fled and survived the Armenian death marches organized by Muslim Turks during the early part of the 20th century.

He decided to become a pathologist. That means that he elected a medical specialty focused on diseased tissues and ones from dead bodies. Pathology is a fascinating and important field, but, when one adds to Kevorkian’s specialty interest the fact that he photographed the eyes of dying patients while a pathology resident, one can legitimately wonder whether his interest in dying bordered on unhealthy obsession.

LINK


Was he really "assisting" or was there something more sinister??????




posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 10:02 PM
link   
reply to post by dontreally
 


My education is not in question as my answer was not based in intellectual arm wrestling tactics, you of course would win that no doubt. What I am saying is that your conditioning is what causes you to make these assumptions about the death and dying processes in both humans and animals of which in many ways are not so different.

Even more so than birth, our death is a fundamental right, one which we should be in complete responsibility of not the politician or the church.

The problem arises when those who have not lived make the decisions for the dying, in essence they themselves on a very deep level are stopping their own death by creating laws and rules to govern others choice to chose.

There should be death centers all around the world, a place where the conscious death can happen in an atmosphere which welcomes it as another part of life's journey and not the finality.

A place where even if you are not at deaths door due to aging or disease, you can choose the moment of your final breath, surrounded by loving people of a higher consciousness, people who understand deeply and have a connectivity to the divine presence in all individuals, who help in the transition and stay with the energy of awareness to aid the person out of the body in a non dead way, in a high Spiritual crossing over.



posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 10:47 PM
link   
That's a shame. Kevorkian was savior to many people. Authorities were going to let him keep doing assisted suicides as long as he promised not to advertise. So he televised the next assisted suicide. hahah, great man. Damn good artist too. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of his paintings.



posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 10:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by antar
 


After an animal gets its neck slit and loses consciousness, its muscles begin to fidget. This is a automatic response and it isnt a sign of the animals continued pain. It isnt the nicest sight, but its a basic fact of human anatomy.



I edited your edit, to be nice, but this I had to draw to your attention:
edit on 3-6-2011 by antar because: edit



posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 11:26 PM
link   
reply to post by antar
 


I dont get what you mean by that edit.

Its a common muscular response after the animal is killed. It happens POST lost of consciousness. .



posted on Jun, 3 2011 @ 11:35 PM
link   
reply to post by antar
 


Were both entitled to our own views. However, just understand that yours are no more of a "higher consciousness" - since i myself am a spiritually educated person - then mine. Thats the insulting tone im getting from your post, as if im just viewing things from a 'lower' perspective.

Now, i thought my post was well thought out. If you analyzed the logic, and the sensibility in choosing to prolong your sufferring because its 1) a part of the natural cycle 2) strengthens the individual, 3) strengthens your faith and connection to the infinite, and 4th) its a capacity unique to human beings to rise above the limitations of sufferring, you would actually realize the great merit in choosing to suffer for the sake of sanctifying the creators name.

It is by no means coincidence that Christian and Jewish mystics are against abortion, assisted suicide (bearing the qualification i made above) while "Easterners" and hippy liberals exult in their freedom to do just do, irreverent of the deeper theological questions.

Just get that what you too believe, is ALSO human theology, and dogma. There is no difference.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 12:12 AM
link   
reply to post by dreamingawake
 

He was one of the bravest men in the country.
He wasnt a sheeple like most.
RIP



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:06 AM
link   
I recently watched a movie called, "Guzaarish." It's a Bollywood movie, but most of it was in English. It focused on a man who was a quadriplegic and he was petitioning to die. India's laws are against Euthanasia as are the laws here in the US. But the overall message was simple. He wanted to die because he felt that up to that point, he had lived a full life (14 years of having no movement, and no improvement in his situation was medically possible).
Kind of a weird movie, but it struck a chord with me. I've always been on the fence about this particular issue. The right to die has never been on my mind until quite recently, while facing my own mortality possibly. It makes you think.
Dr. Kervorkian was not an evil man (in my opinion). I don't think I could do what he did. So it does take a particular kind of person to carry out those deeds.. But he did help people end their suffering in a dignified way. That, to me, says a lot. I know I don't want to get the point where I'm suffering so much pain, and I don't look the way I do anymore, and nothing can be medically done to save me. I want to live my life, and if it comes to a point that it's just not feasible for me to live anymore, then I would hope someone would be able to carry this out. Kinda morbid, yeah, but it's true.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:41 AM
link   
reply to post by dreams n chains
 


God Bless Him.

As a healthcare worker and having witnessed first hand the suffering that most do not know until they may reach it.... God Bless Dr. Kevorkian and his attempts to enlighten everyone at great expense to himself.


Very well put, I second that.

I also believe the good Doctor at the moment still hasn't finished shaking hands and taking hugs and praise from all those he aided - the others he helped 'rest in peace'...

Thank you Dr. K for showing us what a true doctor should be capable of doing.

peace



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:05 AM
link   
reply to post by dontreally
 


Have you ever watched as an ant struggles...dying... upon the last remaining dew drop of the early morning sun on a leaf of the mighty bamboo?

Just one step more and his misery, his conflict ends.

He simply stops battling the inevitable and steps out on to the vast leaf into the ultimate oasis of the towering and mighty bamboo forest.

This is let go, this is trust.
edit on 4-6-2011 by antar because: To You



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:46 AM
link   
reply to post by dontreally
 

Sorry but I do not believe in God or any "after life state". I find it all to be a bunch of nonsense and I will continue to do so until someone, some where can prove other wise and it will have to be some better evidence than some mistranslated book of fairytales.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 08:26 AM
link   
reply to post by dontreally
 


Spirituality and 'education' are diametrically opposed. When you speak of education it is of the old knowledge which for centuries has been useless to your Spirituality. Even Buddha had to drop the knowledge before he could ascend to his fullest potential and that was thousands of years ago.

The Spirituality which is outside the intellect is one that cannot be found through education. It is found only after all education and foolish knowledge has been dropped.

First you have to understand that intellect and intuition are gateways, one leads to knowledge and the other to the divine. You cannot attain to intuition through intellect but you can find absolute intelligence through intuition.

The most wise and intelligent people of the past have discovered this. Intellect is limited, intuition is uninhibited, limitless.

Socrates was a perfect example of how Dr Kavorkian gained his intuitive insight into death.

Much like Dr. Kavorkian, Socrates was accused by Athenian courts of being a threat to the youth and society of Athens, he was a free thinker, way ahead of his times. He lived his life from the intuitive level and was a freeman. In this freedom he could not even have the awareness of death take away that freedom.

He was given the chance to recant his free thinking ways and to conform, to live out the rest of his life if only he would resend his teachings and philosophies, and leave Athens. In refusing to conform to the educated and accepted societal rules and allegiances towards their dogma, he was sentenced to death by poisoning, hemlock.

As he lie on his death bed, Socrates did something so amazing, when his best friend offered to help him escape, to chose life and not death, to steal him away and to help him escape, Socrates refused.

Why did Socrates refuse? It is simple, had he run he would have given away his freedom, he would have been running from death itself, and having totally lived, he saw death not as something at the end of life but a continuation of life!

Socrates had lived his life in awareness, fully alive alert aware, so what better way to leave his body than in complete and total alertness? His intuition as his only guide, he took the hemlock and lay fully alert, awake waiting for the transition, he died greeting death on his own terms...



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 08:32 AM
link   
reply to post by dontreally
 


What I meant by that edit is that I now wonder how many HUMANs you have seen this basic physiology happen to???


We were talking about cows and you accidentally said "human"



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 08:34 AM
link   
reply to post by MrWendal
 


So what are your views on DR Kavorkian and the right for a person to chose their time of death?



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 04:19 PM
link   
reply to post by antar
 





Have you ever watched as an ant struggles...dying... upon the last remaining dew drop of the early morning sun on a leaf of the mighty bamboo?


Nope, i live in Canada. Bamboo doesnt grow here. Though, the sentiment you are trying to convey.... of an ant, or any creature sufferring, or in pain...what is your point?




He simply stops battling the inevitable and steps out on to the vast leaf into the ultimate oasis of the towering and mighty bamboo forest.


Uh huh. Forgive me for not quite understanding your metaphor. How exactly does this relate to the post i made?

Im seeing a very umbalanced, and frankly illogical back and forth here. Im trying to explain my views using logic and reason, and you respond with some poetic allegory; as if to.....? This is not how you debate.




Spirituality and 'education' are diametrically opposed. When you speak of education it is of the old knowledge which for centuries has been useless to your Spirituality. Even Buddha had to drop the knowledge before he could ascend to his fullest potential and that was thousands of years ago.


Right..... Umm....First. Spirituality and "education", by which you probably mean rationality, are NOT opposed. In kabbalistic thought this issue is explained much more cogently then in Buddhism. Have you seen the "tree of life" diagram? With the 10 sefiroth? Well, the first two sefiroth at the top which emanate from Kether (crown) are Hokmah (wisdom) and Binah (understanding) . In kabbalah they are called Abba (father) and Imma (Mother) in the resconstructed state because there purpose is to work together.. The former represents what you mean by spirituality. It is above all differentiation, and so above 'logic'. The latter, Binah, is a differentiation of the former. It derives from the former, and its purpose is to give EXPRESSION to its undifferentiated, supralogical nature. In this layout, called 'partzufim', the sefiroth of Hokmah (which itself is made up of 10 sefiroth) are interincluded and present within the sefirah of Binah. This is a rectification. It shows a 'working together' dynamic, where the former, wisdom, does not oppose and nullify the latter. This is a true unity.

So, they unite, like a man and a woman. To continue this 'mythology', when they couple (zivug in kabbalistic terminology). they produce a child - called Zeir Anpin in Kabbalistic thought (which translates as small face). These are the 6 emotive powers which extend from the union of Abba and Imma, personified as one compound unit - because as in the case of Abba and imma, these 6 sefiroth are all interincluded.

My point with this explanation is to point out that Spirituality and Reason, or Rationality and Irrationality, or Intellect and Emotion (this is more or less expressing the same thing) are supposed to complement, and not compete, or cancel out one another.

An example is this. There is a 'universal truth' and this would be the 'wisdom', because it is an undifferentiated, general concept. This is what you keep talking about. On the other hand, there are particulars - this is Binah, this is a differentiation of the particulars within the general reality. Now, when i make distinctions between man and animal, and how man is beyond Animal by virtue of his possessing Binah - understanding/reason, whereas an animal does not, shows that man is able to unify reality - the contradictions between infinite and finite and so forth - that an animal is by definition incapable to understand or know. An animals sufferring in my opinion should be ended if it will bring it ease.

There is no 'goal' in its continued sufferring. It cannot understand anything beyond its basic, instinctive programming. An animal eats/drinks, it sleeps, its relieves itself, and it plays. And that is ALL it does. Just now i was outside playing with my dog, and i noticed she had some eye crusties. So, i got a kleenex and wiped it from her eyes. I then show it to her as a joke. What does she do? She licks it. This cannot be anymore obvious a proof of how irrational, and overall stupid animals are. Do they display a degree of intelligence? Yes. But it is incredibly paltry and inferior when compared to the human being. Any comparison that seeks to put us on their same level is an insult to our dignity and ultimately seeks to undermine human morality(These sort of ideas are coming mostly out of the east which failed to appreciate the monotheistic doctrines of Judaism).

Back to the point. An animals sufferring is pointless. There is no merit, or reason in its sufferring. Lacking reason (Binah) they cannot find reason. Humans on the other hand CAN percieve reason becase we do experience a differentiation between the original unity. This isnt a bad thing in itself, contrary to whats taught by other teachers. So, being in the midst of sufferring, we unlike animals have a higher, transcendental capacity to RISE ABOVE the sufferring. It is a profoundly mystical capacity that all clear thinkers should be appreciative of. So, this 'union' between what is - the sufferring ie; the differentiated sensation of pain percieved by the ego, and what isnt ie; the perception of an undifferentiated unity, which precedes all differentiation, actually unifies the individual intellect with its transcendental source, and on a deeper level, overcomes the paradox between uncreated and created, finite and eternity, human being, and being at one with G-d.

All this is ultimately for the benefit of the individual to grow, and achieve a higher level - to go from 'strength to strength - is how its called in Kabbalistic thought. And ultimately, the more we understand this, the more we know G-d, and our able to imitate his ways, and essentially to be a more clear minded, loving, patient, and responsible individual.

So, your mistake is your not properly anlyzing created reality. You fail to appreciate the distinctions that exist. You fail to understand the purpose of THIS world..... All of this gives explanation for why sufferring is for our ultimate good.
edit on 4-6-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 04:28 PM
link   
reply to post by antar
 


Oh, did I?



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:12 PM
link   
reply to post by dontreally
 


Thats an awful lot of cerebral taxation for an intuitive Goddess...

Ok lets try it this way:

Birth, Sex, Death...



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 08:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by MrWendal
 


So what are your views on DR Kavorkian and the right for a person to chose their time of death?


I already answered this question earlier on the thread. My post is around the middle of page 2.


I support this man's decisions. If I ever had a terminal illness that left me in constant pain and suffering with no hope at all for any type of recovery or life without pain, I would end my own life and end my own suffering and there is nothing anyone can do about that. You certainly would not be able to stop me. So now the question becomes, which is more humane? Is it more humane that I should put a gun in my mouth and pull the trigger or is it more humane to have a Dr. give me a shot and let me go peacefully without scarring my loved ones by having to clean up my brain matter off the wall?



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 06:46 PM
link   
reply to post by MrWendal
 


Well, thanks for that. I did miss your post. Just remember your loved ones. Not saying you will ever have to make that decision, but just in case. I do not think that the people DR Kavorkian worked with did it in a violent way, it was done in great respect and dignity.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 06:57 PM
link   
reply to post by antar
 


Suicide is up to the individual,although I find it wrong,when it comes to someone fit and healthy. Dr K helped those with death sentences,but I still think he was a little off. Taking pictures of the "eyes" while someone is dying,while studying for pathology,is a little on the "off" side. MHO



new topics

top topics



 
13
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join