No such thing as a real Christian...

If the world were actually populated with 2 billion Christians, following the teachings of Christ, there would be an epic-level push for Peace and Love For All, the likes of which the world has never seen. It would dwarf the hippy movement of the 60s, but this has not happened.

In fact many of these so-called Christians send their sons and daughters off to war. This is in direct conflict with Jesus' teachings.

I have had family members express a desire for me to join their Christian religion. My answer is always the same... if Christianity were real, if it was a movement of billions of people always pushing for love and peace, finding tolerance for all, and always gravitating toward love even in the face of their enemies and violence... Like a real life Jedi academy that taught people how to overcome judgement and anger and always find the loving solution, I'd be ALL FOR IT.

Unfortunately, it has never existed.

I'd like to hear from anyone who can actually honestly say it does exist... And how do you justify the cost of lives and hate and violence that religion brings to the world, when all any of us truly need is LOVE? Justify it, please.

reply to post by spiritualzombie


I can't agree with you fully because I imagine that there are some true Christians out there, albeit very few. I, for one, do not know any. I do agree, though, that Christianity is far from what most are taught it is, and that if all "Christians" were true Christians, the world would be much more peaceful.

reply to post by spiritualzombie


Unfortunately, there are many people who believe something and yet do nothing about it. This makes up the vast majority of the world, I think. With all of the Christians and Muslims in the world, they represent about HALF the world population. That being said, most do not demand peace now because it is much easier to wish the world better than it is to actually make it so. And with their peers and teachers not showing them to stand up no matter how hard it is for them, they think is it ok because as we know, if someone isnt doing it then why should they? A hard mindset to get out of, thats for sure.

I think Christianity turned into a club that works as a mask for the insecure and deceitful person. I don't think many church goers actually thought for themselves about reality. They accepted it for what they were told. Many people these days grow up, leave the church, and live their life. Those who stay use it as a coverup for all the crap they're trying to pull behind people's backs.

It's corrupt. It's an institution. It's a government without an army.

Whatever Christianity was supposed to be, it probably went straight down the tubes when the Romans essentially made it their new enterprise.

Originally posted by FatedAxion
Whatever Christianity was supposed to be, it probably went straight down the tubes when the Romans essentially made it their new enterprise.

Don't forget about groups like the Pharisees.

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
If the world were actually populated with 2 billion Christians, following the teachings of Christ, there would be an epic-level push for Peace and Love For All, the likes of which the world has never seen. It would dwarf the hippy movement of the 60s, but this has not happened.

True. But neither has any other group of people succeeded in their utopian promises, so I presume you aren't part of any group of such people... not even atheists, who often claim to be the best citizens. Both groups claim moral superiority and that the world would be a better place without them, but neither has been able to make good on that claim. Everybody loves idealism but everybody is human, and we all have different ideas of what this perfect society would be like.

So according to your thread title, there are indeed no real Christians--- and no real atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, or anything else. It's a rather pointless statement, when you think it through.

In fact many of these so-called Christians send their sons and daughters off to war. This is in direct conflict with Jesus' teachings.

Not exactly. For example, Jesus commended a Roman centurion for his faith, but never told him to quit the army, and never made any statement saying it was immoral to be a soldier. The apostles also mentioned fellow believers who were soldiers or served in Caesar's household and never said a thing about whether such jobs were wrong for believers.

That said, of course as individuals we are to "be at peace with everyone as much as it depends on us"; we are not to start wars or use violence for personal gain. But at the same time, we are to protect and defend, and if the attacker is violent then it takes violence to stop them. And if we fail to do so, we are traitors and cowards who care more about idealistic pacifism than the lives of innocent children or friends and neighbors. As with everything else in life, there are few things that are as clean and simple as we'd like. The important thing is our attitude and motivation. Anyone who would join the army just to kill people is wrong on many levels, Christian or not.

I have had family members express a desire for me to join their Christian religion. My answer is always the same... if Christianity were real, if it was a movement of billions of people always pushing for love and peace, finding tolerance for all, and always gravitating toward love even in the face of their enemies and violence... Like a real life Jedi academy that taught people how to overcome judgement and anger and always find the loving solution, I'd be ALL FOR IT.

Again, I would challenge you to find such a group and join it. But Christianity isn't just another good-deed movement or club, though so many have made it such for so long. Any group can do good deeds, or provide a safe and comfortable social sphere. Instead, what Jesus came to set up was an organism, a living thing, a restored relationship between God and people. All he asks us to do is to trust him, to accept him, to return the love of God. People who come to Christ for that reason will be transformed, and without even thinking about it they will be the kind of people who do all those good deeds. Many who claim to be Christians can say the right words and play the part, but precious few understand that salvation is all about getting "adopted" by God as his children, and then living a life that pleases him. The gospel has been peddled instead as "fire insurance" and a "license to sin", so it should come as no surprise that so many professing Christians don't walk the walk. I rant often about this and find myself preaching the gospel more to Christians than to non-Christians.

Unfortunately, it has never existed.

It has, but in very small numbers. There's a little-known and parallel "church history" I summarized here.

And how do you justify the cost of lives and hate and violence that religion brings to the world, when all any of us truly need is LOVE? Justify it, please.

Love does not take lives or abuse or control, I wholeheartedly agree. John 3:16, 1 John 4:7-8, and 1 Cor. 13 should be tattooed on the foreheads of everyone claiming they have an excuse to violate that principle. I agree also that "religion" does such things, but not that a true follower of Jesus does such things.

There is a fine balance between justice and mercy, and none of us walk that line perfectly. But there are many who do a fair job and sincerely endeavor to please their Savior. So the way to spot a "real Christian" is to look for someone who not only says they follow Jesus but also demonstrates that they follow Jesus. Keep in mind that we're also not all spiritually maturing at the same rate, and that it is most unfair to judge Christians as all having to reach maturity at the same time. Be considerate of individuals and their own struggles with sin, while at the same time remembering that until you've walked in their shoes you really have no right to judge them or demand they meet your unbending standards.

All of which is to say this: it is Jesus who determines a "real Christian", not you. :-)

reply to post by spiritualzombie


Dear spiritualzombie

I whole heartedly agree with you.

Not even the Roman Catholic Priests act in a Christian manor.

For them it is about the church first and the protection or other evil priests and any of the teaching of Yeshua of Nazareth are up held when it suits them and the evil club.

reply to post by spiritualzombie

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
Like a real life Jedi academy that taught people how to overcome judgement and anger and always find the loving solution, I'd be ALL FOR IT.

Unfortunately, it has never existed.

Actually, THIS at least exists!

The Guardian Academy

Their web site is not well-maintained, but I happen to know for a fact that they offer Jedi training classes at this Martial Arts studio. Interestingly, this dojo teaches a form of Christian martial arts. The Soke is also a Christian pastor.

Ahh ... but there is such a thing as a real Buddhist, or at least the best representation of a Buddhist today.

His holiness, the Dhali lama.

But I digress ...

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
If the world were actually populated with 2 billion Christians, following the teachings of Christ, there would be an epic-level push for Peace and Love For All, the likes of which the world has never seen. It would dwarf the hippy movement of the 60s, but this has not happened.

In fact many of these so-called Christians send their sons and daughters off to war. This is in direct conflict with Jesus' teachings.

I have had family members express a desire for me to join their Christian religion. My answer is always the same... if Christianity were real, if it was a movement of billions of people always pushing for love and peace, finding tolerance for all, and always gravitating toward love even in the face of their enemies and violence... Like a real life Jedi academy that taught people how to overcome judgement and anger and always find the loving solution, I'd be ALL FOR IT.

Unfortunately, it has never existed.

I'd like to hear from anyone who can actually honestly say it does exist... And how do you justify the cost of lives and hate and violence that religion brings to the world, when all any of us truly need is LOVE? Justify it, please.

Bigotry and stereotyping are alive and well in people who claim to be believers and in non-believers such as yourself. You complain that there is not enough love and show none yourself, bit a hypocritical is it not? Try reading up on Father Damien he was Catholic, I am not.

Wikipedia - Father Damien

There are plenty of threads attacking Christians and you have done nothing to add the conversation. You have done nothing to bring understanding of one another, improve relationships or find common ground. You can find no good in any believer, how sad for you to be so blind and hateful. If you only seek to see the bad, you blind yourself to the good. You ignore all the hospitals and universities built by believers and the Catholics built more than any other group. Once again, I am not Catholic, non-denominational.

With 2 billion people professing to be Christians (and most are not and have not even read the bible), you believe about 1/3 of the world is evil. When you throw in other believers, you must believe the vast majority of people are evil because they believe in a God. I guess the only people that are not evil are non-believers like Stalin? Or maybe just yourself, the only good person left, a Jedi knight in your own mind.

Unfortunately, to tell you what a believer does that isn't evil and does have love, would be pointless, you wouldn't believe it for you already know everyone in the world and how they think. You ask for responses; but, in truth you just seek to glorify yourself and attack others. Be well.

so many miss these parts in 1Corinthians13 addressing love - "rejoices with the truth..always protects"

as for the rest, here are just a few relevant-

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.-John1

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name -John1

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth -Romans9

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.-Hebrew7

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.-1Corinthians12

in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.' -Revelation

I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Corinthians2
www.biblegateway.com

Michael White, writing for the Twentieth Century Atlas, has compiled an intriguing list of body counts, attributable to the worst known acts of war, and other human atrocities, dating back to the fall of Rome. I will venture to briefly list them here by count and century:

55 million, Second World War (20C); 40 million, under Mao Zedong (20C); 40 million, Mongol Conquests(13C); 36 million, An Lushan Revolt(8C); 25 million, Fall of the Ming Dynasty(17C); 20 million, Taiping Rebellion(19C); 20 million, toll of American Indians, (15C-19C), 20 million, under Joseph Stalin(20C); 19 million, Mideast Slave Trade(7C-19C); 18 million, Atlantic Slave Trade(15C-); 17 million, Islamic Conquest of India(14C-15C); 17 million, British India(19C); 15 million, First World War(20C); 9 million, Russian Civil War(20C); 9 million, Hindu Thuggee cult killings(13C-19C); 8 million, Fall of Rome(3C-5C); 8 million, Congo Free State(19C – 20C); 7 million, Thirty Years War(17C); 5 million, Russia's Time of Troubles(16C-17C), 4 million, Napoleonic Wars(19C); 3 million, Chinese Civil War(20C); 3 million, French Wars of Religion(16C).

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

Now, what about abortion? At the low end of the Guttmacher scale, even if we ignore all abortions done prior to 1980 when accurate numbers are a little more difficult to ascertain, abortion accounts for more than twice the number of deaths by war! In just the last 25 years, the ghastly toll for abortion has totaled over 900 million dead babies. Taking the more probable mean average, the toll rises to well over 1 billion babies; or nearly three times the amount of deaths due to war.
www.covenantnews.com...

This is an incomplete listing of some very bad things that happened before the 20th Century. I've scoured the history books and collected most of the major atrocities that anyone has bothered to enumerate.However, just because an event is missing from these pages doesn't mean that it wasn't very bloody..Maybe the 20th Century really was more barbaric than previous centuries (as some people say), but you'll need more complete statistics to prove it. [n.1]
necrometrics.com...

Body Count of the Roman Empire
•(Extremely Preliminary and Debatable) TOTAL:
◦All Punic Wars: 1.0M
◦Gladiators: 1.0M
◦Slave Wars (Servile Wars): 1.0M
◦Cimbri-Teutoni War: 0.3M
◦Social War: 0.3M
◦Mithridatic Wars: ca. 0.5M
◦Gallic War: 1.0M
◦Juleo-Claudian Paranoia: 0.028M
◦Jewish Wars: 0.4M
◦Boudica's Revolt: 0.15M
◦Decline and Fall: 7.0M
◦TOTAL: over 13.0M
necrometrics.com...

Originally posted by SaberTruth
and no real atheists

Atheism = No belief in deities.

Originally posted by PieKeeper
Atheism = No belief in deities.

Originally posted by anon102
Ahh ... but there is such a thing as a real Buddhist, or at least the best representation of a Buddhist today.

His holiness, the Dhali lama.

But I digress ...

Dear anon102,

Their was a real Christian, his name was Jesus and he is still the best representation for me, not some loony on television that wants money to buy a new car. You reject the image of Buddhists who violate decency and deny they follow the teachings, I do the same with my religion.

reply to post by spiritualzombie


No human will ever overcome judgement or anger, they may appear to physically, but they will never fully overcome it. People just learn to control it. Ideally without the use of mind altering substances. Learning to control these emotions takes time, but sometimes it happens quickly. It just depends on the personality.

There is no loving solution that will please every single person at once, at that very moment. At least not at this time. Strive instead to project love on toward one person at a time. Avoid what is evil and do good. Start with people that you already have good vibes with, it's easier, then move on toward random people, then when you feel you've got the hang of it, try projecting love on someone that has done you some serious wrong.

No one is able to judge a Christian in a spiritual sense without being judged themselves, in a spiritual sense. Christians are specifically told to NOT judge one another, lest they be judged themselves. What I mean by this is where they stand with God as the standing with God is we are ALWAYS with Him because we came to Him through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It's always a win win.

If someone outside of Christianity judges a Christian's spirituality their judgement is in vain as they are not on the same spiritual "page". What ever a non-christian's judgement is toward a Christian, their judgement has no effect on that Christian's personal relationship with Jesus Christ. For example, a pagan judge may judge a person for not paying child support or for a DUI, and has rendered judgement via a harsh statement, jail time and fat fine, but this judgement would have no spiritual effect on the Christian's personal relationship with Jesus Christ... unless the Christian lets it interfere, or allows it to interfere. This goes for Muslims or Atheists as we are not even on the same spiritual "page" - it's really irrelevant what they think of us Christians because Jesus Christ still stands with us regardless what anyone else may say.

Anyone who dares to say a professed Christian doesn't walk the walk and that they are sinning fools, or what ever derogoratory comment they may make because they are rendering their personal judgment on a "human" level, would never really know their statement to be a solid truth, because the "walk" is also in the Christian's person's head, unseen to anyone else, and is between them and Jesus Christ. We need to keep in mind that the movements our physical body make or what our tounges speak, or what our hands write may not always be in tuned to what is going on in the brain. The body and brain battle against one another when one tries to follow Jesus's commandments every single moment of their lives, which they are to love one another and to love Him with all their heart, mind and soul. That battle is the journey.

Hope you decide to join the Christian family which range from Roman Catholics to protestants as we all share the Holy Spirit and is the one thing that solidifies us all even when we fight amongs ourselves. Seems the Lord is calling you hard and now you are writing about it, so that's cool. I truly wish you the best.

my opinion
Christianity is a religion for hypocrites.

-As you said, few actually follow and practice the very things Jesus asked of them.
-Some maintain their version (lots out there translated for each sect's benefit) is the literal word of God, but they select which parts they will believe in and adopt. (the correct translation is 'Sea of Reeds' not 'Red Sea').
The Jewish Tanach text, and the Qur'an's text are the same today as the earliest found copies. Stick to the closest original text of your 'words from god'.
-The ten commandments mention 'no idolitry', which they ignore (but Jews and Muslims maintain this - IE; No Idols, Images in either Synagogues or Mosques.
- There is one God. Constantine, and company rigged up the trilogy when creating the Roman Catholic(trans universal) Church to appease the 'christians' when rome was under threat.

Originally posted by CitizenNum287119327
my opinion
Christianity is a religion for hypocrites.

-As you said, few actually follow and practice the very things Jesus asked of them.
-Some maintain their version (lots out there translated for each sect's benefit) is the literal word of God, but they select which parts they will believe in and adopt. (the correct translation is 'Sea of Reeds' not 'Red Sea').
The Jewish Tanach text, and the Qur'an's text are the same today as the earliest found copies. Stick to the closest original text of your 'words from god'.
-The ten commandments mention 'no idolitry', which they ignore (but Jews and Muslims maintain this - IE; No Idols, Images in either Synagogues or Mosques.
- There is one God. Constantine, and company rigged up the trilogy when creating the Roman Catholic(trans universal) Church to appease the 'christians' when rome was under threat.

Your first eight words of your post describe your heart and your beliefs, the rest was unnecessary, you were already understood. Your heart was.

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
If the world were actually populated with 2 billion Christians, following the teachings of Christ, there would be an epic-level push for Peace and Love For All, the likes of which the world has never seen. It would dwarf the hippy movement of the 60s, but this has not happened.

Perfect example why we don't come to non-Christians to learn what Christ would do/say.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Matthew 10:34

Originally posted by FatedAxion
Whatever Christianity was supposed to be, it probably went straight down the tubes when the Romans essentially made it their new enterprise.

No, that's called "Catholicism".