Cold Fusion #1 Claims NASA Chief!

page: 5
74
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join

posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:15 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by AmmonSeth
 


That's not viable. Monsanto seems to be doing pretty well for themselves under the same circumstances. Not that that's a logical business practice. It's just not a viable statement that "because normal folk can make it, they can't make money".

Fact is that if normal folk could make it, it would be made already. And somewhere out there leaked on the net. There is none, so It cannot be true.

Hell, the legal gains from suing the hell out of anyone stealing their patents alone would finance a company even if the product itself didn't.
edit on 3-6-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)


The problem is that without pooling people together to work on this tech we can't catch up.. imagine trying to make a nuke without the Manhattan project. The government is essentially accelerating time by putting brilliant people together and using huge sums of money. So in reality, compared to us, our government is a future civilization. Without the brainpower and cash we can't catch up. If someone released a DETAILED explanation of this tech then we could maybe figure it out.. but they have protected it so well it hasn't gotten out. I am convinced they have actively slowed education as well.. and I know of one major disinfo agent that infiltrates groups trying to attempt to make progress in this kind of tech.




posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:41 AM
link   
reply to post by 8311-XHT
 


Your post is a contradiction. There is no logical reason to slow things down if they know most people would buy it rather than make it themselves. In addition to this, like I said before, equipment is taxable. Just like with Monsanto suing farmers they catch with their crops, or with media companies suing people who pirate their software, the government would sue groups using their equipment without a license. It's really that simple. Most people do what the law says. And as such, would pay the license for free energy. We do it with water already, and with food, and with transportation, and a host of other things that we could, if we wanted, make ourselves and have free. But most people are lazy, and so the explanation that they couldn't make money off it is simply not viable.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 05:25 AM
link   
reply to post by Gorman91
 


I disagree with your premise. People would not pay it.. we live in a democracy.. what you are talking about is a dictatorship. People would not pay these oil companies if they had an alternative just so they can live high on the hog. If what you are saying was true the reverse would be true.. we could pay as little as we want for gas. do you realize people in third world countries die because they don't have money for clean water/elrcrity etc? This technology would completely change society. If we had this technology the auto and aviation industries would go in the toilet. Imagine a car that lasts your whole life because the engine doesn't wear out... you don't have to buy a ultra expensive battery or replace it... same with the aviation indutry. Those people that invested so much to become the leaders in their industry would become oboslete because the alternatives require little discimpline to make them work.

Then you have the implications for the military. Our military superiority is enabled by our financial dominance. And how do you defend against someone elses military capability when you have no edge? It would be like giving our enemy the ability to make a military just as dangeorus and powerful as our own... more so in China's case.

This tech may just be the tip of the iceberg as well. There could be implications we aren't even aware of.. there may be spin off technologies we can't even imagine. This is why I feel they assumed they had to take these steps to slow technological development.

edit on 4-6-2011 by 8311-XHT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 05:40 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by CouncilOfNine
 


One of the things I don't understand is that if big oil is in control of it, why don't they just produce a product and sell it? The funds and public support to the first company to make it would surely make them able to control the united states and many other nations indefinably. Considering the type of people who control big oil: racist Muslims and christians, I'd expect them to have it on top priority to extend their control.


If you dig deeper you will find that these people do not control the oil, why do you think the US went into Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Saudi Arabia is next!!



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 08:50 AM
link   
reply to post by Gorman91
 


Thanks for a refresher on the standard model. I will say that the standard model is not the be-all and end-all, and I strongly suspect, since the standard model is based on half of Maxwell's quaternions only, that the model needs revision. [shrug] (Plus, I don't understand why they need "inflation" when all was one to begin with and would explain therefore the evenness of the CMB...)

As for taxation... As energy freely enters the arena of Human society, the need for money (which represents energy) will dissipate...and then taxes will be moot.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:04 AM
link   
reply to post by 8311-XHT
 


And do you realize that people in 3rd world societies would not have such technology en mass? We HAVE clean energy and methods of clean air and water production now. But people don't implement it because of cost. Hell, if you boosted solar panel efficiency by 50%, you'd have your solution right there to a great deal of the world. But people still would suffer and die because it costs money. Literally, it's a plank you put on a wall and it makes electricity, but it's expensive. How do you think the money would be on a 100% clean energy tech that makes lots more electricity.

Yes, it is a dictatorship. That's exactly what it is. And free energy is just that. A Deus ex machina one way ticket to ultimate power for whatever nation implements it. Ergo, it doesn't exist.

reply to post by CouncilOfNine
 


That's irrelevant to the ability of them to produce a product. In fact, I much less can't see the point of your reply at all.
edit on 4-6-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:10 AM
link   
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


It's just an interesting concept is all I'm saying. Virtual particles represent a flow of information from an item. Literally the freaking things are saying "Ah fook reality, imma go float around in quantum dust cause I feel like it". Now in theory, if you could "touch" information, you could affect it. But there's one rule in science. If you can see it, you can change it. if you can change it, it's an energy source. Maybe in a thousand years when we discover the means by which information transmits and we can create our own means of transmitting it we could literally create atomic viruses that change matter into whatever we want. But for now it's just not likely. And it certainly isn't something even remotely understood, let alone capable of being understood with 1950s tech.

Not so fast on taxation. For there is another way to have money without materiality. Tell me, if you care to dwell in such hypothesis, but what would happen if you backed the currency on the GDP? If the very labor of a man was his means of buying and selling products? No gold, no energy. Just his ability to be someone was his wealth? That, I strongly think, is the future currency. You cannot get rid of money. It will always be there. But in what form?



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Gorman91
 


Do you realize how easy these cold fusion reactors are to make? Do a search for rossi's cold fusion.. it's a freakin pipe. All you need is some cheap nickel and you are in business. When they figure it out even more you will probably be able to use anything. And this doesn't even count zero point energy.

Just realize how much money we spend feeding poor people.. with this technoology we could afford to buy people in third world countries this tech and they in tern could build their civilization and do the same for others in their country.

And no country is going to ahev an advantage.. because everyone would ahve access to it.. that is what these people are terrified of.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:38 AM
link   
reply to post by 8311-XHT
 


A wise man once said. If it's so easy, where is it?

I mean, An Ipod is just a brick, and a computer just a box. Surely anyone on Earth could just make it themselves.


You do realize how dumb it is to say because it looks easy on the outside it's easy on the inside? Fact is, that's ignorance.
edit on 4-6-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


It's just an interesting concept is all I'm saying. Virtual particles represent a flow of information from an item.


I'm not seeing that... VP pop into and out of existence everywhere - in all places where permanent particles are not. In what was (and still is) called the "vacuum." They are not carrying info from any item permanently here... Maybe from whence they came, though... Unknown.


Literally the freaking things are saying "Ah fook reality, imma go float around in quantum dust cause I feel like it".


I suspect you mean "figuratively." "Literally" means an actuality, the things are actually and truly saying things... Which I doubt, eh?


Now in theory, if you could "touch" information, you could affect it. But there's one rule in science. If you can see it, you can change it. if you can change it, it's an energy source. Maybe in a thousand years when we discover the means by which information transmits and we can create our own means of transmitting it we could literally create atomic viruses that change matter into whatever we want. But for now it's just not likely. And it certainly isn't something even remotely understood, let alone capable of being understood with 1950s tech.


While the above may be true, I never said that in the 1950's what You're talking about was taking place. I said that in the 1950's We DID have the capability of achieving antigravity and overunity. Take a look at My post here to see how easy really it was:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


Not so fast on taxation. For there is another way to have money without materiality. Tell me, if you care to dwell in such hypothesis, but what would happen if you backed the currency on the GDP? If the very labor of a man was his means of buying and selling products? No gold, no energy. Just his ability to be someone was his wealth? That, I strongly think, is the future currency. You cannot get rid of money. It will always be there. But in what form?


Well, it is correct that Humans must have currency - but with abundant energy, and the need for money dissipating, social status through education, skill, betterment efforts, and wisdom will be the currency. With this as currency, there is no soil for the root of evil to grow in. No money to love.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I said that in the 1950's We DID have the capability of achieving antigravity and overunity. Take a look at My post here to see how easy really it was:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
I looked at your post and I didn't see anything about antigravity and overunity, did you link to the wrong post? And I didn't even see any sources for the claim in that post about non-linear high-k dielectrics.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:28 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by 8311-XHT
 


A wise man once said. If it's so easy, where is it?

I mean, An Ipod is just a brick, and a computer just a box. Surely anyone on Earth could just make it themselves.


You do realize how dumb it is to say because it looks easy on the outside it's easy on the inside? Fact is, that's ignorance.
edit on 4-6-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)


A cooking recipe has to be made precisely to turn out right.. that doesn't mean cooking is hard.. it's only hard if you don't have the recipe. If this tech goes public it won't take people long to reverse engineer it and crack how it works and it will be a piece of cake to replicate. do you realize how simple the Pons and Felischmann cold fusion reactor was? This was a big reason people thought it could never actually work..



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by 8311-XHT
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


I was wondering about scarabs too. Egyptian heiroglyphics have scarabs with wings all over Maybe we should start a thread where some people familiar with Egypt and their history and language may be able to find some connections between antigravity and scarabs.

Been looking all over to see if someone did some DNA testing on the bugs found in the pyramid to see what type they were.

I wonder if it is possible someone could manufacture some chitin like material using the same geometry.


I hope We can find more info on all this!


Also.. something else you might be interested in.. Have you read Paul laViolette's book - Secrets of antigravity Propulsion? It's a must read. It has ALL the info we need to replicate this tech. We just need thethe people power and money IMO.


LOL! Funny You should mention that. It was because of that book that My memories of my toddlerhood cleared up. You see, My father was a CalTech grad in electrical engineering who worked for one of those aerospace companies mentioned in the book. When I encountered the term, "electrogravitics," at first a distant bell went off.

Then, as I read and pondered, a series of memories cleared up. I always had memories of My dad trying to teach Me something, beaming at Me for some reason, waking Me up late at night for some reason. The memories, once clear, were of Him trying to teach Me how electrogravitics worked, what the world I would grow up in would look like because of EG, Him beaming at me for enunciating well the word "electrogravitics" at about 22 months (I remember back to about 1 year old...), and Him waking Me to tell Me We couldn't talk about EG anymore. "They want it secret for now." That was late 1959, early 1960.

So I attribute My recall of some very important work that went into black ops to having read Secrets.


In his book he talks a lot about the B-2 bomber.. he shows that the B-2 is the tangible result of all TT Brown's work. What is really interesting about this to me is the recent discovery of the unknown stealth helicopter supposedly used in the Bin laden raid. I started to think about the rumors we hear of "stealth" silent helicopters. . It made me think.. what if the military is using this antigrav tech in a way we wouldn't expect.. what if they use electrogavitics in standard type aircraft so when we see it we dont suspect it is really antigrav tech. And this way even if the crafts crash the people who recover them would not even understand what it's capabiltities were.. this goes for the people who even manufactured the vehicles - such as the B-2 who weren't on a need to know basis.


Oh, I do not doubt that AG is being used in MANY military craft - I suspect most UFO's are black ops craft. And that other "not secret" vehicles have hidden AG.


Imagine if you had an electrogravitic helicopter? If you look at TT Brown's work he had a rig for testing electrogravitics that really was a helicopter rotor essentially. It had a pole that spun around with saucers on the end of it. Supposedly this operated as a type of perpetual motion magine. so just uimagine using this on a helicopter rotor. Because the electrogravitics soften the air when they move through it it would also make the rotors make no noise. Imagine if you cherged the front of the helicopter too.. who knows how fast the helicopter could travel..


Oh, I am sure many a helicopter has AG. "Perpetual motion," is really a misnomer. Parts break and wear down, so PM is a poor descriptor. Overunity. Yes, EG can produce overunity.

In fact, what My dad told Me back in those halcyon days before EG went into black ops was that cars would fly, houses and cities would float, and there would be plenty of energy for everyOne. Even "jet packs" (without jets) would be available. Imagine My fury now when I look out and see how We have been deprived.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:42 AM
link   

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I said that in the 1950's We DID have the capability of achieving antigravity and overunity. Take a look at My post here to see how easy really it was:

www.abovetopsecret.com...
I looked at your post and I didn't see anything about antigravity and overunity, did you link to the wrong post? And I didn't even see any sources for the claim in that post about non-linear high-k dielectrics.


Read Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion. And TT Brown's work. I only pointed to that post because it gives the basic description of how thrust is produced - a thrust that could be counter to earth gravity.

And that was what They had back in the 1950's. That was the only point to offering that post.
edit on 6/4/2011 by Amaterasu because: typo



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:52 AM
link   
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


In our vacuums, there are walls. These walls are made of matter. That's where they're coming from. The video explained it all. Where there is matter, there are VP. On Earth, with gravity and mass, there are going to be VPs. Travel out into the cosmos, far far away from any gravity, and you would see a greatly lowered number, if any at all.


Your post did not describe anti gravity. It was not the opposite of a graviton. It was repulsive force. Now maybe you are using incorrect terms. We do know of things which do the opposite of gravity. But like I said before. If you had 7 billion people using it, with floating cities and cars, you would destabilize the Earth. In as much as if you could build a warp drive, you would destabilize the Earth. In fact, I could tell you how to use photon collisions to create gravity fields around a ship and then spin some of these generators to create an ergosphere, thus creating a temporal distortion and effectively making a warp drive. But once you actually tried to built a craft that could hold people with that capacity, you would pull the Earth out of orbit. You can test such things, but there is no way to mass produce them, and no way in hell that they would be stable. Floating cities entitles enough antigravity to not only counter the Earth's entire gravitational pull, but add repulsive force to keep it up. This is bad. Those wave-particles are going to hit the Earth with the same force as the Earth itself.

Gravity is a product of density, and thus anti gravity would be no different. The denser things get, the more you get. The energy requirements to generate such a compressive force onto something trying to explode are huge, and the consequences on the Earth devastating. This is why, if what you say is true, the government destroyed all work. Because it's like playing with antimatter.


Your social views are called wishful thinking. Now Roddenberry believed the same. He even created a cultural icon to try and get it started. But it simply isn't working. because most people, myself included, are content to do the one or two skills we like to do and not care about anything else in terms of knowledge and education. The education system I was brought up in did NOT teach me. it told me to remember things till a test, then forget it. That's exactly what I did. And thus, besides the things I was interested in, those being art, history, and the conceptual side of science, I don't remember anything. I used to get As in calculus. Now I don't remember a single rule. Fact is most people won't either. Because people just want to do what they like and not be bothered.

Thus the world will always have the idiots, the dreams (myself), and the geniuses. The idiots rule because the geniuses don't care to, the geniuses make stuff and get money, and the dreams dream, doing their work and enjoying life. This is the way the world has been since the beginning of civilization and there is no sign of it changing. Do you not realize that right now, we as American citizens could paint our farms with solar panels, build hydro power plants, and wind farms (not wind mills, but rather high efficiency cable systems), and be scott free off oil. But why don't we? Because people would rather just sit down, do what they like, have a cup of tea, and relax. Having free energy won't change that.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:53 AM
link   
reply to post by 8311-XHT
 


And you know what else about cooking? There's a fractal crap ton of copy-offs. People randomly rediscover things all the time. I see no such event with cold fusion. One would think that in an era where anyone on Earth could upload a 50 mb blue print in 30 seconds and put it on the net such plans would be leaked. But they're not. because they don't exist.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 11:30 AM
link   

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


In our vacuums, there are walls. These walls are made of matter. That's where they're coming from. The video explained it all. Where there is matter, there are VP. On Earth, with gravity and mass, there are going to be VPs. Travel out into the cosmos, far far away from any gravity, and you would see a greatly lowered number, if any at all.


And You know this how? I have read a number of papers that surmise that VP's are just as prevalent in deepest space as they are here on Earth. And it would seem that the VP's do not come from matter - though some claim that some have such a relationship - most VP's are "stand-alone" particles in that they are not related to any matter but appear from nowhere and go to nowhere.


Your post did not describe anti gravity. It was not the opposite of a graviton. It was repulsive force.


Not exactly. If the THRUST is placed counter to gravity, it is anitgravity.


Now maybe you are using incorrect terms. We do know of things which do the opposite of gravity. But like I said before. If you had 7 billion people using it, with floating cities and cars, you would destabilize the Earth.


And you know this how?


In as much as if you could build a warp drive, you would destabilize the Earth. In fact, I could tell you how to use photon collisions to create gravity fields around a ship and then spin some of these generators to create an ergosphere, thus creating a temporal distortion and effectively making a warp drive. But once you actually tried to built a craft that could hold people with that capacity, you would pull the Earth out of orbit. You can test such things, but there is no way to mass produce them, and no way in hell that they would be stable. Floating cities entitles enough antigravity to not only counter the Earth's entire gravitational pull, but add repulsive force to keep it up. This is bad. Those wave-particles are going to hit the Earth with the same force as the Earth itself.


Where do You derive this information from??? In EG I see nothing of which You speak. The potential creates a gravity differential, in essence producing a "gravity bubble, where gravity is now pulling from the positive end and things "fall" in that direction.


Gravity is a product of density, and thus anti gravity would be no different.


Or so the theory goes. There is some evidence that gravity is NOT a product of density per se.


The denser things get, the more you get. The energy requirements to generate such a compressive force onto something trying to explode are huge, and the consequences on the Earth devastating. This is why, if what you say is true, the government destroyed all work. Because it's like playing with antimatter.


The government did NOT destroy all work. They made the work secret. They kept at it, though.


Your social views are called wishful thinking.


Or the wave of the (near) future...


Now Roddenberry believed the same. He even created a cultural icon to try and get it started. But it simply isn't working. because most people, myself included, are content to do the one or two skills we like to do and not care about anything else in terms of knowledge and education.


That's not WHY it's not working - in the world I see coming, everyOne can do what They please. It's not working because the scarcity of money/power/energy (three manifestations of the same thing) is kept in place and the overunity devices are suppressed.


The education system I was brought up in did NOT teach me. it told me to remember things till a test, then forget it. That's exactly what I did. And thus, besides the things I was interested in, those being art, history, and the conceptual side of science, I don't remember anything. I used to get As in calculus. Now I don't remember a single rule. Fact is most people won't either. Because people just want to do what they like and not be bothered.


Yeah. I agree.


Thus the world will always have the idiots, the dreams (myself), and the geniuses. The idiots rule because the geniuses don't care to, the geniuses make stuff and get money, and the dreams dream, doing their work and enjoying life. This is the way the world has been since the beginning of civilization and there is no sign of it changing.


Well, yes there is. Up until now We did not have three crucial things: the Interweb for planetary communication, robotics at a level where We could build one to do all the necessary jobs no One wants to do, and overunity in the public's hands. The last item to bring this about is the overunity, and that is coming.


Do you not realize that right now, we as American citizens could paint our farms with solar panels, build hydro power plants, and wind farms (not wind mills, but rather high efficiency cable systems), and be scott free off oil. But why don't we? Because people would rather just sit down, do what they like, have a cup of tea, and relax. Having free energy won't change that.


That's not at all why. The why begins and ends with a scarcity of money/power/energy. Many would get a whole bunch of solar panels but for the cost to get them.

And given what You're saying, that We are all too lazy... How in the heck did things ever move past cave dwelling?
edit on 6/4/2011 by Amaterasu because: Bloody tags



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 11:57 AM
link   
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


It's not that I know it, it's that nobody knows, and it's a perfectly viable possibility under the current standard model. That ambiguity is enough to make nobody right. because nobody knows. There is simply no way to know with any technology available, let alone in the 50s.

Fact is we simply don't know. You papers you're reading is based off hypothesis, because we simply don't know. besides, as I showed in the video before, most agree that the VPs come from the parent particle. Because mass cannot be created or destroyed. We've got plenty of mass with plenty of decay to equate for every VP. We just have no way to prove anything at all.

No, thrust is not gravity. Gravity is not thrust. Gravity is the tendency for matter to clump together through unknown forces. Antigravity is the barely-observed counter-reaction we see at small scale, and at the mega-scale. It is not visible. In fact, we still don't exactly know how gravity works, because it entails that space time is both a liquid and a solid, and neither at the same time. Because it's constantly flowing into the center of a mass, yet never moving. Hence Miguel Alcubierre's many theories on it.

How do I know antigravity en mass would destabilize the Earth? Because gravity en mass would destabilize the Earth. Really simple, actually. I think I explained that in the last post.

If gravity wasn't the product of density, then it makes no sense at all. because the more you compress things, the more gravity you get. This is why the most dense places in the universe are also the most gravity-centered places. And this is also why once said places explode, there is no longer gravity.

How did things ever move past cave dwellings? The concept of individuality did not exist prior to about 200 years ago, and did not come to totality that it has today until a few decades ago. This concept alone is why. In cave days, you did what you were told because you were not your own, you were your masters. In the modern world, you are your own master. Only problem is, we're not good masters to ourselves, and only a few people are. I'm not saying that's good, and I'm not saying that's bad. The best architecture, art, and media has come about because of the awareness of the individual. But the fact remains that the trade off is nobody works anymore. Nobody cares anymore. We are in a generational "F it all" mood, myself included.

The social view of the world you describe will not happen for another 200 years. People will have free energy, and then they'll fight over it for some God-knows what reason. Before electricity, people cared about land. There was all the land in the world. That's why people migrated. Yet they still fought over it. Why would free energy be any different.

The three things you mentioned simply do not comply to human nature. People will always find value in something, and that creates a wealth system. If money was destroyed tomorrow, people would have it back in a week. People should view themselves as equals, but people are not equal beyond their humanity. Everyone has skills, and people want things for those skills to be used. I, as an architect in training, want a house and food. Nothing more. I could hardly care for money. I just want a house and some food. But if you do not give me those things, or the means to supply them, in this time period that's money, then I will not work for you. When Money is destroyed, and yes it will be, people will value themselves and their skills rather than the paper and gold they have. All that means is a person becomes a unit of currency, and his skills his value in currency. It doesn't make money dead. It just makes it in a different form.

Money, unfortunately, will never be gone. Because even in a world where robots did everything, power was free, and money didn't exist, there's still repairmen and technicians for those things, and they'll want something for their services. As John Galt once said, when the last light goes out in the biggest cities, they'll cry for help.

"You have heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis. You have said it yourself, half in fear, half in hope that the words had no meaning. You have cried that man's sins are destroying the world and you have cursed human nature for its unwillingness to practice the virtues you demanded. Since virtue, to you, consists of sacrifice, you have demanded more sacrifices at every successive disaster."
edit on 4-6-2011 by Gorman91 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 04:44 PM
link   
reply to post by Amaterasu
 


...2

Here, read up on why your world will never work.

www.working-minds.com...



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 05:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by 8311-XHT
 


And you know what else about cooking? There's a fractal crap ton of copy-offs. People randomly rediscover things all the time. I see no such event with cold fusion. One would think that in an era where anyone on Earth could upload a 50 mb blue print in 30 seconds and put it on the net such plans would be leaked. But they're not. because they don't exist.


I think you vastly underestimate the lengths our government wil go to to keep a secret. Watch a video online called Billion Dollar Secret and see what an aviation designer says about them keeping secrets... and waht happens to the person who attempts to let this info out.. or their families.... If our country would do somehting like 9-11 in the name of protecting national security..... Or assasiante presidents... or experiment on their own citizens..





new topics
 
74
<< 2  3  4    6  7  8 >>

log in

join