The issue of the omniscient God

reply to post by AQuestion


In my own beliefs I do agree with you that this is more or less an opportunity of growth for this God being. However, again this brings into question our own existence. Are we, in any way shape or form, real? For if this is all God's doing for the sake of growth then heavy truth lies in the teaching of pantheism and the Law Of One. If we are all more or less learning tools for God, created by God then we are in no way separate from God. God is essentially in all, and is in no way separate....meaning this is all, more or less, an illusion of separation for the sake or experience and learning. It is one thing to know something, but is it another to directly live it?

But wait, isn't experience covered in all knowing? To know an event in its entirety is to live it, breathe it, and to feel it. Wouldn't God in some way understand all of this before hand?

Interesting responses everyone, continue please

Originally posted by davethebear
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Yes, I did read what you wrote and found it most interesting what you had to say.

Did you read my post?

I wrote what I did, this is mainly from the viewpoint I had as a child when you are still developing in both mind and body. A thirteen year old boy I talked to a few years ago actually brought this up in conversation from a religious education class he had been involved in and he could not get his head around what was being taught within the lesson, the same way as I had trouble getting to grips with it.

So although I understand what you wrote, from a child's point of view within an environment where they want you to believe in something in a certain way, especially within Sunday School, things don't always seem to make sense do they?

I am presuming that you are older than 13 years of age, so therefore you have grown mentally and able to come to the decision of how to decipher the belief that you have now. Did you think about this in the way that you do now, when you were 13 years of age? I think I can safely say that you didn't........

So when I wrote what I did, that is the viewpoint from what it was written....

Cheers

Dear davethebear,

You did not say in your post that it was answer that could be learned or that you did learn it. The OP asked who it could be, you answered that you always wondered that. If you were only saying that you didn't understand as a kid then you were not responsive to his question, I assumed you were trying to answer his question.

We are now left with two assumptions for me to make. Either A you understand the answer to his question now but couldn't when you were a child or B, you still can't answer the question and never have. Based on your response you are asking A, if not then consider my answer that I already gave answers B. Therefore I will respond to A.

As children we don't understand quite a lot and even when we are told the answers, we are incapable of understanding. I am also assuming you are not 13 and no longer a child, I am assuming you know more now then when you were, I am assuming we are capable of growing and that means knowledge can grow. If your answer is B, let me know.

You're here to climb a mountain with love (and other virtues) as your gear. How you reach the top is up to you - free will - and you will remain here until you do. You can't climb the mountain carrying all your belongings, so if you want to reach the top, remember to be able to let go of everything in this life. You can't climb the mountain by acting in hate and selfishness either. Only by love and lack of selfishness can one traverse the slippery slopes and aid himself and those around him, because what you do to others you do to yourself, so love everyone equally and in great amounts. All is One...

Some enjoy being near the bottom, and some enjoy hanging around the middle. Ultimately, the top is the goal, but it comes with the "sacrifice" of one's Self (ego), especially for others - the crucifixion is an extreme example of this. It's supremely worthwhile in the end, and you'll learn that "I" equates to "you", "me", and "us." You can say we are divine beings learning to love; learning to become like God; learning to reach the super-consciousness of the divine (like a Christ, or a Buddha).

The top of the mountain is complete enlightenment -- salvation from this world. It is the union of the feminine and the male (the Bridal Chamber in Gnosticism, Kundalini Awakening in Hinduism, etc.) that leads to it.


Bottom line: it's a learning process. This is our school; this is our quest. One of many, I'm sure. He can be omniscient and all this can take place just fine.

every time that God uttered a prophesy he became Biff in back to the future with the sports almanac. he knew the future so he inserted a seed to make it come out different. he altered the timeline, so he altered the choices, making other possibilities that ignorance of the future would have brought. he removed future free will by manipulating the people with prophesy. maybe men where destined to all die out in the mythical garden of Eden, and that one act of defiance propagated us into 10's of thousands of human existence. every time god offered advice and it was followed he has purposely altered the future. that negates free will again.

by placing laws upon men god again interferes in mankind's free will by demonizing behavior etc. free will is the ability to choose your path no matter what it may be good or evil god demands that its his path or your will be tormented forever... that is by no stretch free will.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
reply to post by AQuestion

 

In my own beliefs I do agree with you that this is more or less an opportunity of growth for this God being. However, again this brings into question our own existence. Are we, in any way shape or form, real? For if this is all God's doing for the sake of growth then heavy truth lies in the teaching of pantheism and the Law Of One. If we are all more or less learning tools for God, created by God then we are in no way separate from God. God is essentially in all, and is in no way separate....meaning this is all, more or less, an illusion of separation for the sake or experience and learning. It is one thing to know something, but is it another to directly live it?

But wait, isn't experience covered in all knowing? To know an event in its entirety is to live it, breathe it, and to feel it. Wouldn't God in some way understand all of this before hand?

Interesting responses everyone, continue please

Dear TheOneElectric,

I will answer; but, you are cheating. What you ask now should probably be a separate thread for it is a completely separate question and people may mix the two, that could get confusing.

In answering your question, we must assume that my previous answer is correct. If I do so, I am at a great disadvantage (or so it may seem) because I have already built my base. I can play with it also.

These are good questions; but, I don't want you to think that this is the first time in 2,000 years that they have been asked, heck, they used to argue over how many angels could sit on the tip of a needle. While people may believe that all Christians are deluded and stupid, I do hope you see that the answer I gave took some thought and was not stupid. Even if we may disagree on there being a God, I do hope you understand that my answer was not.

You say that if we are God's creation then we are all one. That is the part that you define, one. I don't know what you are thinking and you do not know what I am thinking, if you did then you would have asked this question first rather than your original question because you would have known my answer. Actually, everyone on this thread would have known my answer in advance. We are parts of a whole, not the whole, does that mean there is no whole? The whole of humanity knows more than any one individual can know. If we are a part of God (creation?) then are knowledge is limited; but, that doesn't mean I direct all parts of my body.

There used to be a series in Readers Digest, it would say, "I am Joe's Bladder" or whatever part of a human you could think of. Let us assume for the moment that the Bible is mostly accurate (I am not speaking as a Muslim regarding how they see God and don't wish to speak for their beliefs, I am speaking as a Christian). The bible says that God created us in his image, lets think about that. Hey, he said us, not each. Hmmm, perhaps he meant our combined abilities. What we are capable as an entirety in doing and knowing. Now lets look back at the tower of Babel.

He said that they would confuse our language because we were capable of anything. "Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do; and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech."

Think about it, he said we were capable of anything. He created us and had to hold us back. That free will thing does create growth. Hmmm, this is getting interesting. Hey, that's not the first time he talked about what we were capable of. The Garden of Eden. Eve ate from the tree of knowledge, not life, interesting choice on her part is it not? Most people would choose life, that would make them lesser gods. All the life and not all the knowledge, Eve chose well. Now we get to learn.

I am trying real hard to make this amusing and light because, lets face it, this is a pretty deep question and requires much to answer it. Consider that the first thing God understood was that he was, next step would be to examine oneself ("the unexamined life is not worth living"). What if the first step a true God would do was to know self, to attempt to understand self. Was to look at the individual parts? Babies do that, they learn their body parts are theirs and hey aren't we made in his image? We are parts, he is the understanding in the middle, not in complete control, learning.

reply to post by TheOneElectric


Like all other posters on this and similar subjects, you equate belief with truth.

You believe in a god, but you have no proof that one exists.

reply to post by TheOneElectric


I think free will is a gift...the greatest gift really. For without it, what would we be?

reply to post by Sailor Sam


Dear Sailor Sam,

You misunderstand, he is asking this to prove that God is not a logical answer.

reply to post by AQuestion


I admire your rebuttal, and it's quite entertaining when you throw in the fact that the "Father" could be an advanced being beyond our current understanding, at that time.

It's interesting to note, that "God" destroyed all of mankind except for Noah and his family and directly afterward stated that a flood would not be used again for the heart of man is inclined to evil. I read that as saying, that lesson didn't work, let me try something else.

Perhaps this is a multi-dimensional being that sees all outcomes and the potential of each person. Leaving us the free will to do as we want, but at the same time trying to persuade us to arrive at the desired goal? Kind of like a 4th dimensional being playing with a chemistry set in our 3rd dimensional perspective.

Originally posted by QuietSpeech
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I admire your rebuttal, and it's quite entertaining when you throw in the fact that the "Father" could be an advanced being beyond our current understanding, at that time.

It's interesting to note, that "God" destroyed all of mankind except for Noah and his family and directly afterward stated that a flood would not be used again for the heart of man is inclined to evil. I read that as saying, that lesson didn't work, let me try something else.

Perhaps this is a multi-dimensional being that sees all outcomes and the potential of each person. Leaving us the free will to do as we want, but at the same time trying to persuade us to arrive at the desired goal? Kind of like a 4th dimensional being playing with a chemistry set in our 3rd dimensional perspective.

Dear QuietSpeech,

I really loved your question. It is very intelligent. I might argue that this should be a new thread; but, again, will not at this time as long as the OP lets us follow this logic. I am very agreeable with your Noah statements. As for the number of dimensions, what if there are but two? What if we experience and learn, then we do it again. Not so much dimensions as thought, a one thing that is all.

If we can have a thought then which thought can't we have? Then one should ask what thoughts should we have. Look at God as a being that became self aware, what process of evaluation of reality would you follow?

reply to post by AQuestion


Close.
The post was made to examine the possibility God is outside of our understanding AND no separate from ourselves. Our choices seems to have been its choices all along.

reply to post by The One Electric


What you are saying is very interesting, have you heard of non-duality?
It is about there not being two. That there is no- thing separate.
We separate 'things' to understand 'things'.
Eventually it is realized that there are no- things.
The presence that you are is all knowing. It is awareness.

It is the field of experience that is the 'one'.
'Things' appear to you (the presence).
But the 'ten thousand things' are just colors and patterns, movement.
The 'one' that experiences (which is you-your presence-awareness itself) is ever present, all knowing (not needing to understand- not in words), it is what is here, the real you behind the curtain.

It is the human mind that fragments the world into pieces, chops it up into 'things'.
The mind makes the 'ten thousand things' out of 'not' a thing.
God is seen in the colors, patterns and movement and God sees it all.
It is the mind (what we think of as our individual selves) that gets scared by the 'things' it has created.

What is seen is no more that a firework display, a work of art for our viewing pleasure.
But like going to the movies, we get immersed in the story and believe it and get scared.

reply to post by The One Electric


Imagine that you have a light attached to your forehead, it is dark and the light is off. You see nothing, no 'thing'.
Switch the light on to wide beam and every 'thing' appears at once, the scene is lit. The scene is seen, boom, then each 'thing' can be separated out of the whole, if we choose to name and label each 'thing. The labelling of each individual 'thing' makes objects. But there really are no objects as such.
When the eyes open, what is seen is instant and intimately one 'thing' - it is your field of vision.
'Your' field of vision and what is seen are not separate.
Try it with touch, touch something, a table, can you feel the table or can you feel your hand. No, they can not be separated, the sensation table can not be known without the sensation hand.

reply to post by The One Electric


The presence is what you are, presence awareness.
Presence is always present within the present moment.
Presence can never go anywhere, because there is no other time and no other place.
It is now.
When you consciously know that it is never not now and it is never not here, you will be home.
It is ok to play with past or play with future as long as you KNOW it is just a thought appearing presently.

When you always know where you are (here and now) you will feel grounded, whole, not fragmented. Here and now it is 'known' before it has to be understood by the human mind.
This is the place of all knowing.
Nowhere (now - here).

double post

Well it wasn't random. Randomness does not exist in the absolute, as there is only one thing and thus it can not be disorganized in any way. Even in the material universe we use the term randomness but its really based on probabilities of known events as opposed to events originating from nothing or randomness.

Originally posted by davethebear
This has always baffled me, the question of God and the 3 O's............

If God did create the world and everything else around us, then why did he bother. Apparently or supposedly, God created man on the sixth day. Then he created Eve from Adam's rib, apparently, supposedly.

Now if God is all knowing, when he created Eve, God already knew that she was going to eat from the tree that he told them not to eat from. So why bother creating everything when he knew it was going to be all messed up a little over six days later anyway.

This even puzzled me as child who regularly went to Sunday school, due to my father being the Sunday School Superintendent, I just couldn't work out what the point of it all was. It's a bit like hitting yourself over the head with a hammer when you know it's going to hurt. You just wouldn't do it, would you?

"Why did God bother" is a question many have asked, and I made my own feeble attempt at answering here. Let me know if it helps.

Hey all! I had to get in on this one.....its a passion of mine! Whoooo Hooooo! Ok....here goes!

One of my favorite people in History is Edgar Cayce. He was such a sweet humble man as he worked for others all of his life and prominent people were calling on him in every way to help them as well. He was a Baptist and was a big time God Lover. He was suffering from pain and had a friend of his put him in a trance to help relieve his suffering and that is when his life changed.

He was known as the "sleeping prophet". He helped heal people as when he was "asleep" he could see things like no other and explain to the individual how to eliminate their problem. He did thousands of "readings", even for the President (and Government). He was truly a great selfless man of his time!!

I think the stories of History can help form some sort of opinion about a creator force. Not only was Jesus words spoken with love but so was Edgar Cayce. The poor man could barely feed his family and in the end he died young because each time he went into trance his energy was depleted.

Here is a link that describes in detail his take on Human Origin. Its quite fascinating to me as he was the only man who was not only loving but lived accordingly to be a teacher of our existence in such detail.

He takes you into another way of thinking that is truly based on the Energy of the Cosmos.

His take on it makes sense to ME. It may not make sense to anyone else but so far he has my full attention outside the Bible.

If I could explain all that he describes I would, but I can't nor do I have the time today...sorry.

Pretty Please (with sugar on it) check out the link and let me know your thoughts...


www.near-death.com...

Thanks!!

Peace and Love !!! xoxox

reply to post by TheOneElectric


Oh my gosh I am so happy you posted this OP, because I found the perfect answer for this last night while chatting with my loving significant other.

SO. I am religious (I'll just throw that out there) and I was troubled for a bit thinking about what you have stated... that if "God" is all knowing and our lives are already "pre written" there is obviously no chance of "free will" existing. But let's take a deeper meaning at the existence of an omnipotent being.

I'm going to refer to this being as God because it is the most common word for this being.

An omnipotent god would exist at all times, in all times and at any time. Sure time is merely a perception that we have but it still exists to us. Now God exists in each beginning and God exists in each end. When we look at our universe, we can see that there are an almost infinity of choices we can choose to do every day - we can choose to jump off of a building, call our mother up, tell someone we love them or punch someone in the face at any time we feel like choosing. God would have to exist in each one of these universes, which he would (being an omnipotent being and all).

Is this starting to make a little more sense? Let me progress:

So all of these choices exist for us to take different paths along our life, and God exists in each of those paths. What we get to choose is what path we follow. God is wanting us to gravitate towards his favored path that he has set out for us by influencing us benevolently and hoping all that God can that we make the right choices in God's eyes (or "eyes" haha). All possibilities exist at the same time but in some other universes (which we could exist in by making that choice) we are making different choices than what we are in our current experience of our universe. We are constantly floating through all existences of our life and this way we CAN choose what we feel like doing through our own defined free will. Yes there are boundaries to what our physical bodies and minds can do while existing here, so that is what we have to work with.

This is the only way that God can exist / an omnipotent, benevolent being can exist. And it TOTALLY makes sense if you get metaphysical about it, which you should be because you're talking about God

So once again...
- We exist in a "multiverse" defined by every possible choice
- God exists in every universe in the multiverse and knows everything about each one
- We can choose which path (or universe) to follow based off of our choices/actions in each universe (all exist at the same time)

Please ask me questions if that's confusing, because I got excited when I was able to figure this out last night!

Peace


P.S. I just read QuietSpeech's quote above (I just hit reply as soon as I read the first post) and it relates exactly to my idea.

Perhaps this is a multi-dimensional being that sees all outcomes and the potential of each person. Leaving us the free will to do as we want, but at the same time trying to persuade us to arrive at the desired goal? Kind of like a 4th dimensional being playing with a chemistry set in our 3rd dimensional perspective.

Originally posted by TheOneElectric
As many of ponder upon the great depth of the Universe, the Multiverse, and Reality, we find ourselves perplexed with the question of existence. What brought forth creation? Was it pure will, a random expansion of energy, a random birth of a powerful being? We sit, contemplate, and answers to these questions come not in this stage of existence. So we live, and we make assumptions as to the origins of things.

Taking for granted that there is a source, a creator, a God of sorts, or a presence an issue arises. If we are to skip the argument of infinite regression and assume that there is a source in which all originates, we have a conundrum on our hands. In many spiritual teachings, choice plays a major part in development. However, never enough do we question the validity of free will. What factors allow us to choose? Is it an evolutionary development that assists our brains in higher levels of cognition? Is it a benevolent gift from the source? What is choice? Well, to be honest, I'm not here to answer what choice is exactly, I'm just here to state a fact of the third dimensional plane of thought.

Under our rules and understanding, if a Omniscient, Omnipotent god being existed then the idea of free will and choice are more or less fictional ideas; at least in our level of understanding. It takes merely simple logic to question the validity of free will under Omniscience. If such an all knowing being existed, outside of space and time, all of our actions would be known to it. All of choices, before we were even here to make them, are known by our assumed God. This being knows all, it knows when all will be born and when all will die. It knows what a person will choose to have for breakfast and it knows what a person will have for dinner. It knows what route one will take to work, and what route one will take to return home. It knows all. It knows what exact words, down to the awkward verbal punctuation, one will say to their co-workers on that given day. All of our choices were known, thought of, and contemplated long before we existed under this assumed God.

How is free will or choice to be considered valid under an Omniscient God? How can our decisions make a difference to our well being if they were already crafted, like a computer program in play. Are our individual experiences and choices meaningless on a personal level? Are our choices the choices of God, therefore giving more credence to the idea of all of reality just being God experiencing?

Remember...it's omniscience we are discussing, and nothing short of it. If it exists, and God is all powerful, then God has it. If God has it, then our individual free will is automatically in question.

What exactly is going on here? What are our choices if we are to believe in an omniscient source?

Individuals, separatism from Truth/God is illusion. That is the extent of your free-will as a seemingly separate entity from God. You have the will, as God, to be deluded into believing you are separate, to believe that time is unfolding, evolving.

There is only ONE valid WILL, and that is the will of GOD. Time, with it's boundaries exist WITHIN God. So if you are not under any illusion you will be aligned with that one free Will (God's) and will understand what free will is. But if you are under the delusion that you are some person contemplating God within the boundaries of finite time, you are right in assuming "you" have no free will. Does your finger have free will?

People arguing morals, right and wrong are missing the bigger picture. Are your white blood cells evil for killing pathogens? Is a fox evil for killing a rabbit?

This world is illusion, separatism is a fantasy that results in an almost infinite illusory drama. You, as illusion have no free will. WE, as the one God/Truth/Reality have the only Will in infinite eternity.