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Being Gay is a Gift from God

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posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by CouncilOfNine
 


Tell me in which ways my Bible is flawed? Ill correct your view.

Name a few for me.

Just because our Bible doesnt bend to your idea of how things were created , doesnt mean the bible is wrong , you could be just as wrong as the Bible. If you are wrong , im sure you know what the Bible says about that.
edit on 04/30/2011 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)


See how you just said the Bible is truth but then also said it "bends" to peoples ideas? Do you live your life exactly as the words in the Bible are written? And by that I mean, do you live and act on every verse as it is literally written? And if not, are you going to use your excuse of "God will forgive me for sinning?" Or will you just cop out and post a bunch of verses about forgiveness because you can't really think for yourself?

Also, PLEASE stop saying "your" when you obviously mean "you're", the contraction of the words "you" and "are". You have done it repeatedly and it's really not helping if you want to be taken seriously in a debate.




posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by CouncilOfNine

Originally posted by 547000

Originally posted by CouncilOfNine
reply to post by 547000
 





What if the ruler of the universe said follow me and you may live in my kingdom, and don't follow me and be cast out?


First of all there is no ruler of this or any other universe only the one infinite creator in the form of intelligent infinity.
Secondly this would never happen because there is no imaginary kingdom (unless you create it yourself) that you long to go to.
And last of all no entity would be cast out of any where, everyone has a place you are not special because you are a christian!!

You guys are so into the fire and brimstone thing, still living in the dark ages, just try to accept that everyone gets the chance to move forward it just depends on your choices how you will do this.



My experiences tell me quite the opposite. The Christian God is called the Lord for a reason and there is also a horrible spiritual inferno. He seems to have special rules and regulations people need to follow or accept before He'll allow them in His kingdom.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion this is free will at work, however this is not to say that your thinking is correct.
You can call the creator what ever you like I prefer infinite creator as I have never been one for organised religion, to me it is only a form of manipulation to keep the masses under control.
Have you seen this "horrible spiritual inferno" I think not, you have just been told it exists.......have you ever asked why you were told this?? maybe so you will abide by church doctrine?? or this is where you will go?

There are no special rules or regulations as there are no mistakes under the Law Of One there is only free will and choice of polarity......then comes love/light and spiritual progression through 7 octave's of reality where we are all gods for lack of better word.
You should understand, we are already in the creators kingdom we are a part of it as it is us as All Is One.
edit on 4-6-2011 by CouncilOfNine because: (no reason given)


I've actually felt the burning of that horrible fire, around the time when I had stigmata. There is a hell. I foolishly tried to deny it because of the nonsense I used to think was spiritual. There is a horrid fire and those who tell you there isn't are ignorant of it.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by aero56
reply to post by 547000
 



For those of you espousing "free will", probably christians, please provide one single scripture of your bible that supports that belief? If God knows everything, and has appointed a time and place for everything, how is it that you have a "free will'?


Because you have to choose to heed the advice of the prophets and apostles or ignore them. The entire bible supports the notion that one must resist sin. If one doesn't have the option to resist or succumb to it there is no free will.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:19 AM
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Originally posted by DB340
reply to post by 547000
 


A 'belief' cannot possibly at all, ever be a fact. I think it's fair to say that a 'belief' is two levels below a fact, like an opinion could be said to be one level below a fact.

A belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true. Taking it further, Plato, for example, said that knowledge was 'justified true belief', more commonly known as a 'fact'. Religion is not a 'justified, true belief', it is merely a belief, leading to it not being knowledge, thus, not a fact.

This is logical.

If what happened 2,000+ years ago had many sources, was verified by all in art of the time, in many scriptures/songs/paintings/poems, etc., then it would hold more verifiably 'true' and it would even perhaps be considered 'stupid' to not 'believe' in something that was 'factually documented by many, many a time'. The bible and all the versions (a case in point, no?) shoots itself in the foot by merely being a 'belief' of many 'beliefs' centred around one 'belief'. Thus, religious people are so closed as to the prospect of incorrectness (look at Harold Camping), that they will go to the greatest of extremes to justify the 'belief', since no 'factually, undeniable data in any form' exists... otherwise it would not have so may versions and be so twisted in so many ways.

Thus, all being said and understood, religion being a belief, itself in turn irrefutably settles the argument that it cannot possibly be true; true in as much as 'what was written and quoted to have been said, really happened or was really said'.
edit on 4-6-2011 by DB340 because: (no reason given)


So if you believe something it is most definitely not a fact? I believe facts are statements which are true. With your argument one could say that people believe the world is round so it it definitely not a fact. Does that make any sense to you? Whether you believe it is irrelevant as to whether its true or not.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 07:37 AM
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Well I quite concur, sir! So, let's highlight the two premises:

1. A fact is a fact, no matter whether you choose to 'believe' in its validity.

2. Religion and all that pertains to it (the Bible, what Jesus said to whom, etc.,) is a belief.

Those who believe the Earth is round can be equalled with those who believe everything in the Bible is true; such as 2.

Science, in its many forms (planetary orbiting, the mere fact of flight paths for aircraft and magnetic deviation occuring to 'prove' beyond any (reasonable) doubt that the Earth is round), categorically and proveably demonstrates, without fail, that the Earth is round. This can be equalled with those of us who do NOT seek solace in the Bible; such as 1.

Why? Because, whereas science can prove beyond any doubt that the Earth is round, and people can go and look for themselves, or perform Earth-bound experiments which undeniably prove the Earth is round, hardcore religious folk cannot similarly perform experiements, or even indisputable research provisions, as to the verifiably true nature of the Bible and all that happened during its time of writing.

Thus, yes, a belief does not change whether or not the fact is true, because the fact will always be a fact (justifiably true knowledge, as per Plato), but, and this is the KEY to what I am saying being a fact (following logic, and not my own opinion), the 'fact' that there are so many religions with different interpretations of the Bible (a piece of justifiable true knowledge - just look at the amount of religious groups in the world, so this is undeniably true), renders the whole idea of religion and all that pertains to it (what was said to whom as per the Bible, etc...), as undeniably farcical.

That said, and following my own logic, I am not saying or trying to 'disprove' that anything happened and that all the Bible's words are utter nonsense; no! I am simply stating that, a fact is 'justifiably true knowledge', and considering there is absolutely nothing near to this is the world of religion, only responses (mixed and distored, I might add - à la Harold Camping and other folk), or opinions or interpretations of an already incredibly distorted, rewritten (proveable fact) book, to consider religion or biblical study as a foundation for a way of life or way of thinking, is so beyond incomprehensibly unsafe, that is begs belief!

What a beautifully poetic ending, there. Surely I deserve a star for that.
edit on 4-6-2011 by DB340 because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-6-2011 by DB340 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:13 AM
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reply to post by DB340
 


Whether something is provable or not doesn't effect whether it's factual. Something can be factual in spite of not being provable. In your original post you said belief can not be fact. Then by that logic scientists who believed the world revolves around the Sun were unquestionably wrong if what you stated is true, because they believed in something they hypothesized. But whether they had substantial evidence or not their beliefs were still factual.
edit on 4-6-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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You're 50% on the way to understanding me.

As I have demonstrated, a belief is a belief, no matter if the fact is a fact.

But, the mere fact of believing something means that the required 'justifiably true knowledge' (the proof of the fact) has not been satisfied.

Using your example of the round/flat Earth:

If the year were 330BC, when Aristole was content with the round Earth theory, and we were having this discussion (without undeniably factual, justifiably true knowledge - such as the Bible is, nowadays), I would still say the same thing and it would still hold true; satisfying both your comments and mine.

If I jump across the fence to 'fantasy land', for the sake of argument, (i.e, the land of non-presence of justifiably true knowledge), regarding the flat Earth, I would thus believe the Earth is flat (and, in the present day, believe in all the Bible says as correct).

I would say "You think the Earth is round? Prove it!". You would say, as a 'scientific person', "No. You prove that the Earth is flat!". I would be unable; thus, we would BOTH be 'believers' in our own sides of the fence, both unable to prove the other wrong. But, if I lived my life and taught everybody that the Earth was flat 'because someone in this book a few hundred years ago said so' (assuming the year is 330BC), you would be very just in saying "But you have no concrete evidence - you have a book which you cannot clarify, justify or prove to be true". I would say, just like the present-day Bible enthusiasts, "But in the book, it says that 'blablala, the Earth is flat". This would continue ad nauseum (as it does today), until someone says "Here is your justifiably true knowledge - religion and everything in the Bible is..... true/false" - whatever it may be.

So, I find that my approach to this subject is very educated and thought-provoking, rather than the regular nosh nosh of inbalance, bias and fruitcake-ed-ness, for want of a very better word.

I cannot possibly say that "Everything in the Bible is rubbish", because I simply do not have justifiably true knowledge to clarify this... the same goes to Bible enthusiasts and 'believers'; there simply is absolutely no, nada, nill proof of anything in the bible being undisputedly true... only theories, just like the flat or round Earth.

So, as I said in the very first place: the mere fact of something being a belief, automatically and autonomously renders itself as non-factual... until justifiably true knowledge supports the 'belief' and promotes it to 'fact'.

As for the thread subject which is still closely related to this discussion, a gay person is 'most likely, according to a very large index of scientific and demonstrable evidence, gay from birth'. This scientific data can be enforced by the endless testimony of gay people personally and categorically stating that being gay is not a choice, going on to explain how they would not have chosen such a 'repressed' lifestyle, one thwarted with difficulties and daily judgement by the media and society.

As for what the Bible says about homosexuality is neither here nor there since, as I have somewhat irrefutably demonstrated using logic and factual commentary, the Bible's words have no ground in argument for the sheer fact that they are unfounded and unproven beyond any (reasonable) doubt.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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I don't think a fact has to be demonstrable to be true. Often times we do not have the means needed to show a fact is true. From a logical perspective, as opposed to a rationalist perspective, it's possible that to prove something true you have to prove the opposite false. There's nothing illogical about that. If you drag in a rational perspective there might be.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by MJZoo
 


Ok , the thing about the your bit. Im to lazy to type you're , so i type your. Obviously if you were a teacher and if i was going to hand in an Essay , i would type you're and your in its propper conext , i dont use ' period when i am typing generally on a forum as i am not trying to impress you. I type very unformally.

O , and why would i not type the forgiveness BS? Its a MAJOR part of God's word. It tells us many times , you will not make it to heaven on your works alone , but be blessed through your works , and faith will get you into heaven. Even our most good works here on Earth is but Filthy rags in God's eyes , for he is a PERFECT and JUST God , meaning there is no exception to his Law , he even follow's his law as in the Cross Jesus died on , blood must be shed for our sins....and God sent the sacrifice of his son. So all we have to do is ask , thats it , faith thats it , but yet as you notice its hard just to believe, thats why we are rewarded and the Bible says few will enter heaven , those that thing they know God

Romans 3:10-11 “.. as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; "11" THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;”

Your Ideas of God are Null for you couldnt even concieve God , however Jesus ... you can.

Romans 8:7-8 Because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Sin is to overpowering , the only way is FORGIVENESS while you try and discount it , you can NOT , NOT SIN. Thats why forgiveness and Faith is so important ..... dont know why you tried to block out the most important part of the bible. Righteousness and following the Laws brings blessings in this life and crowns in heaven , however it does not get you to heaven , only Jesus will for he is our Link to God in my faith.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and
responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt.
11:28).

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He
predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35;
Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place)
to save every soul who "fears God and works righteousness" (Acts 10:34-35).
That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in
Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption
(cf. Eph. 3:10-11).
edit on 04/30/2011 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Xandyr101
reply to post by RMFX1
 


It is not a curse. This is a pathetic argument to say the least. As usual as a Christian you judge other people from a book that was written by man and not God himself. And don't bring that whole argument that man was inspired by God to write the book because I was inspired by the Beatles to start singing, doesn't mean they wrote my songs. Man is flawed and loves to control other people and what better way to control people than with religion and scaring them about hell if they do not follow their laws and commandments. The Bible is contradictory and yet people still seem to follow it.

Like George Carlin said, "If you do any of the ten commandments that God doesn't want you to do he will send you to a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."

I can't help but see the truth in that quote because coming from the religion and seeing the behind-the-scenes as you could put it, I can tell you that its not a great religion.

So when it comes to gay marriage, being gay, gay rights I would absolutely love it if you keep religion out of it. That would be awesome!


I'm the most un-religeous person you'll ever come across. What on earth made you think that I was a christian? If it was my avatar then I suggest you take another look.

So to be clear, I am not religeous at all and my opinion is that people who are "born homosexual" are flawed. To be "born homosexual" then that in itself would suggest that there is something different to normal human beings on a genetic level that causes the homosexual malfunction. It's a flaw.
edit on 4-6-2011 by RMFX1 because: spelling



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by 547000
I don't think a fact has to be demonstrable to be true.


So how can you know the fact even exists upon which to propose an opinion if it is not necessary to demonstrate that it is a fact once identified?

I consider this notion very flawed.

A fact can only be a 'fact' if it is acknowledged, or at the very least, perceived to be absolutely and undeniably valid if it is something more distant and/or complex (such as astrophysics and cosmology), to even exist in the first place and about which one may discuss.

Water boils at 100 degrees (ignoring the fact of reduced boil temperature at higher altitudes). I could 'tell' you that it does, in the same way that the Bible 'tells you' that such and such is 'true'. What ground does it have to base incredibly important personal/scientific decisions on? None. A tragic error of judgement.

The mere realisation that we do indeed know that water boils at 100degrees, and we can prove it, means that we can act in the correct way for matters related (cook books, other experiments, temperature products, health warnings, etc...). Whereas, if everybody took someones word for it (or anything for that matter), without asking for justifiably true knowledge (factual evidence, autrement dit), the most terrible of outcomes will be more commonplace and when they do not happen, it will be merely fortunate rather than an educated decision (since there would be no fact upon which to base your direction) - such is the Bible.
edit on 4-6-2011 by DB340 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by DB340
 


The Bible tells you the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible. If you dont believe that , then you arnt a Chrisitan and you might as well not debate about the Bible ... because the people that believe in the Bible , believe its words , those who dont...do not , so if you dont believe in the Bible you cant talk about it as you have nothing to interrupt that isnt already warned about in the Bible that can be thrown back at you as the Holy Spirit provides us the meaning or ways to obtain meaning of the verses.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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Clearly you read absolutely NOTHING that I wrote.

Nevermind.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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reply to post by DB340
 


Experience can give you facts that science is nowhere close to proving. You can not prove that the man known as Jesus walked the earth, but if you had experiences you would know that is a fact, just not a fact that can be demonstrated.
edit on 4-6-2011 by 547000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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Unfortunately, that doesn't cut the mustard.

I could tell you that everytime it rains, I see fairies flying around my room. It may well be an experience, and absolutely true (!!), but when will science prove that fairies fly around my room when it rains? Tough luck, science, you won't be proving it so until then, it's a FACT! I even wrote a book about it!!


Nonsensically unfounded tripe. A very poor response.

I mentioned in a former response that those who follow the Bible (or just look for circular discussions - both groups falling under the 'no justifiably true knowledge' category), will scrape the bottom of the barrel to support their beliefs.

It's interesting to know the reason why they deem it necessary to scrape from the bottom. The reason is simply because no facts exist. Now, I'm not one of those bandwagon members, a stereotypical ass, I hope you have noticed that even to some minor extent, who will say "Yea you have no proof so shut up". I like to think of myself as more informed and intellectual than that. To whit, I will conclude with the following:

The religious gentleman on here who quotes from the Bible (and who read, clearly, absolutely nothing that I wrote), is a prime example of those who miss the point of discussion. I am happy to be informed that everything in the Bible is at least 95% true, accurate and what is said to have happened, really happened, and what was said, really was indeed said. We both know that this will never happen, unless we discover a) time travel and bring back absolutely undeniable truth with our iPhone cameras and dictophones, or b) we discover a sort of stockpile, a warehouse if you will, of ancient literature which supports absolutely everything ever written in the Bible. We find scores and scores of eyewitness testimony, poetry, songs, etc... all speaking of this Jesus figure, all speaking of the various events which took place.

You and I both know that this will not happen. So, what are we to do?

We are to come to the joint acceptance and realisation that; a fact is justifiably true knowledge. You cannot prove that what your book says is true, accurate and absolutely undeniably correct, and I cannot prove otherwise. So, the mere fact that we are both, ironically, in the same boat, on the same planet, we must jointly accept the 'fact' that what I have written is both accurate and true, it takes not one side but encompasses both our interests, and that until the day comes when your book is proven beyond all doubt to be true, it is no more than a belief, one of thousands of beliefs of what happend 2,000 years ago, and is thus not a book of facts.

I am sorry about that, for both you and I. You because Bible followers must accept, despite what they 'believe', that it is not factually accurate and is merely thus a belief, and I because my people (non-believers) will have to put up with religion dictating how we live when we do not want it to; we who must be invovled directly or indirectly in religious war, sexual indecency, hijackings, and the list is endless.

Whereas, if you chose to live a normal, good life like we do and are capable of doing, without the need for a book of stories (which is all it is, factually, a book of stories) good in your life and in others life, we could cut out war, poverty for religious reasons, stupid conversations about being gay is a gift from God and the such.

But again, as we all know, this day of clarification will never come, and those who believe they will meet God once they die are in a slightly difficult position to report back to us to give us the thumbs up or down.
edit on 4-6-2011 by DB340 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by RMFX1
 

So to be clear, I am not religeous at all and my opinion is that people who are "born homosexual" are flawed. To be "born homosexual" then that in itself would suggest that there is something different to normal human beings on a genetic level that causes the homosexual malfunction. It's a flaw.

Just rejoined the thread, and your post looks quite ineteresting.

Currently there is a disjuncture between academia, and the majority of gay people outside it.
Most self-identified gay men would claim to be born gay, thus using a very essentialist argument based on their personal experiences.
However, in the academy many argue for social constructions of gender roles, and that homosexuality developed into the modern role, just like masculinity and femininity changed over time.
The fact that homosexual behavior is not limited to the gay identity, and becomes dominant in some homosocial settings (prison, for example) is used to reinforce this. This view was influenced by feminist theory, although lesbianism in women seems more fluid than homosexuality in men.

The social constructionists also caution against finding the "gay gene" (which has already been partially done in males, although it involves a complex cluster of genes, along with birth order and influences in the mother's womb).
They argue some will see gay genes as flawed, and use the discovery to terminate gay babies, or to alter and exclude gay people.
They therefore urge gay people not to co-operate with such research.
I've even heard it called "Nazi science".
They also question the social theories behind the essentialist argument.
What will it benefit gay people to become a kind of new race?
Will we be pushed on to reservations like the Native Americans?
Being born gay only gives one the right to be gay, but it doesn't provide for equality in society.

The fact is that although nobody even remembers being born, a lot of gays and some lesbians firmly believe they were born gay (including myself), and that is just honesty.

Social constructionists never make moral judgments, or say that anything is a conscious choice.

However, I'm wondering why a non-religious person would call a gay orientation a flaw?
In what sense do you mean this?
What defines a "flaw"? What defines"normal"?
Do you base it on yourself?
By my experience straight people are very varied in their fetishes and tastes, and many prefer not to make unwanted babies. There is hardly a straight "norm".

From my position it seems like being gay is a vital part of natural human variation.
Were Alan Turing and Michaelangelo human flaws?
Did gay people contribute nothing to culture, technology and civilization?

There's been so much focus on religion, that heterosexism with its woman-abusing slums of unwanted and uneducated children seem like the flawed price of male dominance in post-colonialism.
So your post reminds me that homophobia is not only religious, and that many religious people tolerate gays.

It is rarely mentioned that Stalin reversed Lenin's liberal laws on homosexuality, and that all kinds of non-religious persecutions of gay people existed.

I've become quite impressed with Christian heterosexists, and I know where I stand with them, and they mostly tolerate me as a person.
I see increasingly that dangers lie elsewhere.

edit on 4-6-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 12:35 PM
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reply to post by DB340
 


Yes i did , you just ignored it. You look for proof , non will be given in the way your looking for it. You either believe or you dont.

Its that simple. Only facts worth arguing with a non believer is if not Jesus is real , but what the Bible teachs. your looking for proof and when you see it in the way your looking for , itll be to late. Thats what im saying.
edit on 04/30/2011 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 12:38 PM
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Originally posted by BioStatistic
Maybe the bigots are jealous because we have great sex, awesome parties, beautiful homes, are happy with our true inner selves, love who it is in our hearts to love, and our disposable incomes are bigger.



It's all envy when you look at it this way. I love who I am, and I refuse to let some social moron try to take it away. The world would be a much better place if people worried more about cleaning up their own lives before meddling in the lives of others.


Is that why they need to advertise on billboards? What are they actually promoting?

If your words were true, then the billboard would not exist.

I think you are big on your self . I have everything you describe above. So what.



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:02 PM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


I am Atheist - - so I really do not care what the bible says - - at all. (I was raised Christian - I did not have a bad experience that made me turn against God/religion - I am Atheist because of education and knowledge outside religious teachings.)

However - - as I've said - - the bible is interpreted many ways. Those who choose to believe negative aspects that teach condemnation of a group of people - - do so by choice.

It is no different then those who used the Mark of Cain to justify their treatment of black people.

You can choose to believe the interpretations of: Walter Wink, Professor of Biblical Interpretation at Auburn Theological Seminary in New York City.

It is YOUR CHOICE - - and Yours alone. No one is making you believe/choose the negative interpretation.

www.soulforce.org...



posted on Jun, 4 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by DB340
2. Religion and all that pertains to it (the Bible, what Jesus said to whom, etc.,) is a belief.


Ya know - if there was any proof at all of Jesus - Christians might have something concrete to stand on.

But there isn't. There is nothing. Nothing but hearsay.

You can't even go by ancient scripts - - because "talk" could get you imprisoned or even hung. That's why stuff was written in parables and other ways of coding.



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