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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
reply to post by Frankidealist35
Well, I'm not sure how useful I am. I got burned a LOT when I was younger. A lot of my current attitude comes from that. I am happily married for a decade and a half now.
The women I hung out with in college encouraged me to "open up" and "be honest" about my feelings---yet when those feeling included being sexually enamoured of them, they always rebuffed me. They wanted me for a friend, not a lover. And yet I took their advice, when they wouldn't sleep with me anyway. (Not that sex was my only goal; but, well, it was in the mix. Things got better after I went with the old fashioned, 'no sex before marriage' program.)
Look, I think that gender roles are a social construct--they are not innate, since they vary by culture. And yet there are is a short list of gender prototypes that cultures choose, over and over again. I think that parhaps this is because it's what works.
Now here is the question
People are fundamentally illogical. We can all wish that we would be completely honest with each other. But the truth is that we as individuals are hardly ever honest with ourselves. I think there is something in the feminine social construct that enjoys flirting, enjoys the construction of a facade, etc. In the vast majority of cultures, it is females who use make-up, not men (there ARE exceptions, as always.)
#1- Part of what is making modern society so dysfunctional, is that we have de-constructed all the traditional mores, without completing a new set of functional rules. We have told "today's woman" that she can be anything she wants (but she must be "Strong Woman" and a "Leader for tomorrow.").
#2- On the other hand, we've told boys that they must not be rude, or so smart that they become geeks; but they mustn't pursue a woman, because that is putting her on a pedastal. Besides; just having sex is a lot less work.
Yet as a society, we've quit teaching boys how to be men. Peublo Indians initiated their boys in a Kiva Lodge. Medieval europeans initiated their sons into guilds or orders of chivalry. Plains indians had warrior societies, as did Kalahari bushmen and the classical Chinese. Greece and Rome had the mystery religions with their secret initiations. The Aztecs had the cheetah and eagle warrior cults. But not in the modern West. Male organizations are laughed at or sued for being chauvanistic old-boy netwworks. From the Freemasons to the Boy scouts are culture is actively demolishing the last remnants of male initiation.
So, violence is illegal, and initiatiory societies are anti-feminist. And many little boys don't even have a father present to tell them what it means to be a man. So all they are left with is TV images.
The reason for this rant is just to point out to you that many men today don't really have any idea of what it means to be a man; just as many women today don't know what kind of man they want, and would not want to admit that what they want might not be exactly what the culture tells them to want.
Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Okay, but why should opening up about one's feeling be a gender construct? Shouldn't guys talk about their feelings too? I think society focuses too much about gender and not about the people that you're with or about who you are and the values you pick up from those people.
#1- I see nothing wrong with this. Why shouldn't women be as capable leaders just like us men?
As far as pursuing a women-- I agree that society has taken somewhat more of a conservative belief with regards to sex. What has caused this?
I really fail to see what the Boy Scouts is demolishing the last remnants of male initiations. Both the boy scouts and cub scouts organizations has helped make me who I am today.
I actually think that Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts teaches people to become men more than you think it does.
I'm glad violence is illegal. I think rather than live through gender codes people should live through value codes and use them as a manner of their living. It might be hard to actually uphold them but it would be worth a shot!
Nowadays being a man means that you need to be a jerk to other people as much as possible and only be mature in public.
Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Honestly, I think most of the trouble is all the psychobabble that showed up in our society in the wake of WWI.
No one wants to see a man cry. Just ask Ed Muskie.
No one wants to hear a man complain about suffering from personal injustice, or physical pain. So don't waste your breath. The people who tell you that these things are important are simply trying to control your responses, and get you to emasculate yourself so they don't have to.
You don't telegraph your feelings or plans, except to your wife---and then only what matters to her.
Otherwise, you are simply showing your cards.
No one will ever love you for being weak; anyone who says they do is merely trying to make you dependent upon their approval. Women (probably men as well, but I'm only interested in the female) want a lover they can respect. Being strong and helpful will get you that respect. There's no reason to act like a caveman. But people can withhold love; while they will respect you whether they like you or not.
Jerks still breed. Whiners often don't. What else do you need to know?