Jehovah's Witnesses Founders Believed In Ancient Alien Theory

@ wearewatchingyouman……….cool thread......you are absolutely correct in your titles inquisition...Charlie was certainly a visual thinker with some insightfull perspectives....I have read some of Uncle Charleys old personal correspondences our family has held on to and they are interesting reads in some cases.


I like your passion...and your questions...if you are interested in reviving this thread then simply reply and lets get down to business.....I will gift you some answers you seek.

a reply to: JB1234

I have been a JW for a long time and I have never been taught or would listen to anything unless it was backed up by scripture. God indeed does live in a part of the Universe, but exactly where and in what form we're not told. All the Bible states is that God has a name for each individual star in the universe, whereas mankind just numbers them now as we've found so many.

Your post caught my eye as you said that -- “God indeed does live in a part of the Universe, but exactly where and in what form we're not told.” --

Are Jehovah Witnesses taught that the Spirit of all that exists both visible and invisible has His throne in this terrestrial universe?

KJV
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

NWT
4 And all those of the army of the heavens must rot away.+ And the heavens must be rolled up,+ just like a book scroll; and their army will all shrivel away, just as the leafage shrivels off the vine and like a shriveled [fig] off the fig tree.+
5 “For in the heavens my sword+ will certainly be drenched. Look! Upon Eʹdom it will descend,+ and upon the people devoted by me to destruction+ in justice.

JPS
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall moulder away, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig- tree.
Isa 34:5 For My sword hath drunk its fill in heaven; behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of My ban, to judgment.

DSS
4. the heavens [shall fall] and the heavens shall be rolled up like a book and all their hosts shall fall down like a leaf falls from a vine and as one falling from
5. a fig tree. (5) because [you shall see] my sword be drenched in heaven, behold it shall come down upon Edom and on the people of my curse for judgement.

Here I show you the very same translated interpretations of the 1611 KJV, The New World Translation, The Jewish Publishing Society, and the Dead Sea Scrolls translation interpretation of the very same Isaiah 43:4-5 scriptures.

The reason I chose these particular scriptures is that the DSS Isaiah scroll is dated as the oldest literature of all four of these translations being to about 200 BCE – The Masoretic Aleppo Codex text, which the KJV translators used, is the most accurate of all the other three translations when compared to the DSS.

When reading the DSS (34:4) interpretation of this translation, it is clear that the author declares that the host of the terrestrial heavens shall fall. It has no reference to celestial substance whatsoever. The heavens which are referenced here are this world’s first atmospheric heaven and the heaven above that heaven which is the heaven of the heavenly terrestrial host of heavenly bodies. In other words it references this world of two heavens just as the Genesis account cites.

The world’s first heaven was that heaven that was before the firmament was created. The second heaven was created as the firmament was created and became our atmospheric heaven. The references today are the atmospheric heaven is now our first heaven while our second heaven is the heaven of the host of heavenly bodies.

Where is it referenced that -- “And all those of the army of the heavens must rot away.” How in the world did our terrestrial heavens get an army and what is this army? What is meant that it rots away? I see nothing in scripture where a terrestrial army will rot away or anything remotely referenced that a terrestrial entity will rot away in the terrestrial heavens.

Our modern science will somewhat verify this with their discovery and belief that the terrestrial universe is expanding at a great rate today. Where or what is this universe expanding into? If God is God then is not His realm above that which He will roll up as a scroll? Why would God destroy His own realm if He indeed resides in this terrestrial universe?

Where is this third heaven that is mentioned in 2nd Corinthians 12:2 ? Is this third heaven the kingdom of heaven located in the celestial (spiritual) realm? If the terrestrial universe rolls up in destruction, is God and His throne also rolled up or does the very creator have to move? If He does move where does He move to? If the terrestrial realm is destroyed does that leave only the Spiritual realm?

You may think it is a bit silly to show what I have shown but please explain where the NWT bible translators get their translation and how does their imagination run amuck of the scholarly sources?

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: JB1234

I have been a JW for a long time and I have never been taught or would listen to anything unless it was backed up by scripture. God indeed does live in a part of the Universe, but exactly where and in what form we're not told. All the Bible states is that God has a name for each individual star in the universe, whereas mankind just numbers them now as we've found so many.

Your post caught my eye as you said that -- “God indeed does live in a part of the Universe, but exactly where and in what form we're not told.” --

Are Jehovah Witnesses taught that the Spirit of all that exists both visible and invisible has His throne in this terrestrial universe?

KJV
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Isa 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

NWT
4 And all those of the army of the heavens must rot away.+ And the heavens must be rolled up,+ just like a book scroll; and their army will all shrivel away, just as the leafage shrivels off the vine and like a shriveled [fig] off the fig tree.+
5 “For in the heavens my sword+ will certainly be drenched. Look! Upon Eʹdom it will descend,+ and upon the people devoted by me to destruction+ in justice.

JPS
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall moulder away, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll; and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig- tree.
Isa 34:5 For My sword hath drunk its fill in heaven; behold, it shall come down upon Edom, and upon the people of My ban, to judgment.

DSS
4. the heavens [shall fall] and the heavens shall be rolled up like a book and all their hosts shall fall down like a leaf falls from a vine and as one falling from
5. a fig tree. (5) because [you shall see] my sword be drenched in heaven, behold it shall come down upon Edom and on the people of my curse for judgement.

Here I show you the very same translated interpretations of the 1611 KJV, The New World Translation, The Jewish Publishing Society, and the Dead Sea Scrolls translation interpretation of the very same Isaiah 43:4-5 scriptures.

The reason I chose these particular scriptures is that the DSS Isaiah scroll is dated as the oldest literature of all four of these translations being to about 200 BCE – The Masoretic Aleppo Codex text, which the KJV translators used, is the most accurate of all the other three translations when compared to the DSS.

When reading the DSS (34:4) interpretation of this translation, it is clear that the author declares that the host of the terrestrial heavens shall fall. It has no reference to celestial substance whatsoever. The heavens which are referenced here are this world’s first atmospheric heaven and the heaven above that heaven which is the heaven of the heavenly terrestrial host of heavenly bodies. In other words it references this world of two heavens just as the Genesis account cites.

The world’s first heaven was that heaven that was before the firmament was created. The second heaven was created as the firmament was created and became our atmospheric heaven. The references today are the atmospheric heaven is now our first heaven while our second heaven is the heaven of the host of heavenly bodies.

Where is it referenced that -- “And all those of the army of the heavens must rot away.” How in the world did our terrestrial heavens get an army and what is this army? What is meant that it rots away? I see nothing in scripture where a terrestrial army will rot away or anything remotely referenced that a terrestrial entity will rot away in the terrestrial heavens.

Our modern science will somewhat verify this with their discovery and belief that the terrestrial universe is expanding at a great rate today. Where or what is this universe expanding into? If God is God then is not His realm above that which He will roll up as a scroll? Why would God destroy His own realm if He indeed resides in this terrestrial universe?

Where is this third heaven that is mentioned in 2nd Corinthians 12:2 ? Is this third heaven the kingdom of heaven located in the celestial (spiritual) realm? If the terrestrial universe rolls up in destruction, is God and His throne also rolled up or does the very creator have to move? If He does move where does He move to? If the terrestrial realm is destroyed does that leave only the Spiritual realm?

You may think it is a bit silly to show what I have shown but please explain where the NWT bible translators get their translation and how does their imagination run amuck of the scholarly sources?

That is Uncle Charlie again and his core values are still brightly shining through.You have to dig deeper into the onion for your answers.

After reading your comment Seed I noticed the google definition of "moulder" from the Jewish Publishing Society version of Isaiah 34:4 also includes "rot (away)" as a possible meaning. Maybe they used the JPS bible to make some of the NWT.

I wonder if Isaiah 34:4-5 has any connection to 2 Peter 3:10-13 where the "heavens pass away with a great noise." per the KJV. The gospel of Thomas 11 recorded Jesus as saying, "This heavens will pass away and the one above it will pass away."

It is possible like you said there could be three heavens:
1. Earth's atmosphere
2. Location of all stars and planets
3. Spiritual realm - God's dwelling place beyond the other two.

Was Isaiah 34, 2 Peter 3 and Thomas 11 all talking about a literal heavenly roll up, rot up, pass away or was it figurative? Which heavens was it to be?

a reply to: lostinspace

I wonder if Isaiah 34:4-5 has any connection to 2 Peter 3:10-13 where the "heavens pass away with a great noise." per the KJV. The gospel of Thomas 11 recorded Jesus as saying, "This heavens will pass away and the one above it will pass away."

Isaiah 65:17,18 also prophesied that God shall or has or is in the process of building a new heaven and a new earth. My point being that if the Creator is building a new heaven then my reasoning is that He certainly is not building it in this old heaven. My reasoning is that the celestial realm is not of this terrestrial realm just as death is the shedding of the terrestrial realm and existing in the spiritual realm. This is why the scriptures tell us that flesh and blood cannot enter the spiritual realm [1st Corinthians 50:50]--

The 1917 Tanakh and the 1988 Tanakh do use the word moulder in their renditions and do claim that their translation is from the Masoretic Aleppo Codex and yet the 1611 King James rendition translates no such word or meaning of any army rotting away and also uses the same MSS in their translation of the same OT MSS.

With this, my only other alternative is to look at the DSS and they agree with the KJV. So in that lite I must accept the DSS
which is about 1,000 years older than the Masoretic MSS. But my point is where does the NWT get --[And all those of the army of the heavens must rot away]? Is that an inference of flesh and blood entities being those of the army shall rot away?

With that I ask any one to explain.

a reply to: wearewatchingyouman

I wasn't a witness myself but there was a Kingdom Hall in my neighborhood and I knew a lot of members. None of them ever heard this either and I spent hours and hours bible studying with them because we just did stuff like that.
Kind like sleep overs but with churches instead. I went to temple with my Jewish friends and protestant churches with the Methodists and kingdom hall with the witnesses.
I was Catholic. My friends came to my church too. Heaven was always out there but not in any specific location. In the eather. A spirit place not a physical place.
As far as I know no religion that believes in heaven has the address.

a reply to: wearewatchingyouman

No an alien is a brown man looking to rape your daughter enlist your son into a gang and take your job.
Where ya been man.

Gravity worship = Satanism.. You'll find out, about 7 lifetimes too late.

Throne of God, or Cell of Satan? There's a reason you worship the prisoner...