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Conservatism (and neo-conservatism) is the root of all of our problems in America.

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posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by SG-17
 


I'm hoping that during the elections of 2012, we'll see the death of progressivism. The foolish policies of progressives lead to nothing but utter ruin. I never want to see the likes of Dubya, Carter or Obama hold a public office ever again. Yep, GWB was progressive lite, but still progressive IMO.




posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by DerbyCityLights

Originally posted by SG-17
reply to post by DerbyCityLights
 


How does social welfare impact personal freedoms? You are still free to drive cars in Sweden, you are still free to use private health care in Sweden, you are still free to overpay for housing and utilities in Sweden, you are still free to not vote in Sweden, etc. Social welfare of the democratic socialist variety doesn't impact personal freedoms at all, if anything it increases them. No one is going to "take your guns", no one is going to abridge your right to free speech, right to assembly, or anything else defined by the Constitution or common law.


If you really feel that way, renounce your citizenshiop and move to sweden. Cause Im telling you right now, your belief is no longer the majority in this country.


Instead of telling him to move, why don't you explain how Swedes (or Norwegians or Danes or etc) have their rights removed in the interests of societal services? Last I checked, their police aren't allowed to beat them mercilessly or grope them at airports or spy on their citizens and justifying it with boogeymen.

Freedom is an exclusive concept completely unattached to either capitalism or socialism. The US will either continue to have its freedoms stripped or it will rebel. Neither economic ideology will change that, no matter what the politicians want you to think.



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by SG-17
Once upon a time the United States was the most progressive nation in the world and the best place possible to live. No more.


Progressive because at the time what America was founded on was considered progress.


prog·ress    [n. prog-res, -ruhs or, especially Brit., proh-gres; v. pruh-gres] –noun
1. a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage: the progress of a student toward a degree.
2. developmental activity in science, technology, etc., especially with reference to the commercial opportunities created thereby or to the promotion of the material well-being of the public through the goods, techniques, or facilities created.
3. advancement in general.


So what conservatives believe (real conservatives, not the NeoCons or the religious right who you are actually attacking) was once what was progressive. Now, progressive has changed.

That doesn't mean progressive is good. Progress is just progress, advancement towards a goal. Progressives could adopt the beliefs of Nazi Germany, they'd still be "progressive".



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by SG-17
reply to post by DerbyCityLights
 


Why don't you actually explain how democratic socialism negatively impacts our personal freedoms, or can't you?


It might not impact personal freedom directly but it does make it cost a ton of money making personal freedom something for the rich. I might be able to buy a car but that purchase will be taxed heavily and the gas to run it will be taxed heavily.

Throw in something like illegal immigrant that don't pay income taxes but get subsidies, and things get a lot more expensive.

Throw in the political correctness that normally comes with socialism then I am branded as a racist for complaining about things.



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by SG-17
 





No, the true failing of this country is that too many people, both in power and the voters, can't see what is best for the people....


OH good grief!


Are you guys reading from the bankers handbook on how to divide a country???

The problem is FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING or more accurately ZERO RESERVE and the power hungry bankers who have BOUGHT our politicians for at least a hundred years.

The bankers are NOT capitalists they are Fabian socialists. (See the London School of Economics and The Rhodes Scholarship Program)
www.alternet.org...

centurean2.wordpress.com...


This is the best short explanation of Keynesian Economics, the economic model the Bankers have foisted off on the American people and others around the world. It is the "economic theory" that is used to cover their FRAUD.

The Irresponsibility of Ben Bernanke and How He Will Destroy the Dollar

...Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke’s Quantitative Easing approach is immoral, failed Keynesianism and harmful. ..... It is a deliberate but hidden default on government obligations. It steals from taxpayers because it is a hidden tax on income and wealth. In all of these respects, it is outright theft!

...All economists know the solution to unemployment is lower real wages.

All economists know the solution to unemployment is lower real wages. A central part of Keynes’ theory was the notion of money illusion. Keynes believed that workers would not accept nominal decreases in wages but that they could be fooled via inflation, a belief that only an elitist could have. If the cost of living goes up and wages stay the same, then real wages go down and presumably employment goes up (or down less than it otherwise would). Inflation, the critical tool in the Keynesian paradigm, has been used regularly. Since the formation of the Federal Reserve, the purchasing power of the dollar has fallen almost 96%.




Inflation, the critical tool in the Keynesian paradigm, has been used regularly. Since the formation of the Federal Reserve, the purchasing power of the dollar has fallen almost 96%.

Could Bernanke Spark a Run on the Dollar?

...QE2′s greatest shortcoming is that is really doesn’t create jobs as advertised. It’s just more supply side, “trickle down” monetary theory designed to goose the market while workers languish in unemployment lines. Here’s how the Wall Street journal’s Kelly Evans summed it up: ”…the limits of monetary policy are becoming clearer. History suggests any further easing probably would do too much for the stock market and asset prices, and too little for jobs.The only real fix is to lower the cost of U.S. workers relative to foreign rivals and machines, or else raise their bang for the buck. The latter, while clearly preferable, requires education and training that won’t turn things around overnight.” (“The Fed’s Magic Show Appears to Be Over”, Wall Street Journal)

In other words, the Fed is planning to give every working man and woman in the US a big pay-cut so they can go nose-to-nose with foreign labor.


You can see how this blends seamlessly with Obama’s State of the Union Speech where he focused on “competition” as his central theme. More importantly, Obama reiterated his pledge to double exports in the next 5 years. The only way that can be achieved is by destroying the dollar.






edit on 26-5-2011 by crimvelvet because: fumble fingers



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:36 PM
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all the progressive agenda is take and take from people

sure you will never see it but it does and it has

for social programs to work you need stupid people to want them and you need rich people to steal from to pay for it.

once you run out of the rich then who pays for all that stupidity.

pretty much like this country today.

pick your label liberalism,socialism,progressivism doesnt matter.

once you get under the government dime they have complete control over you they give something they can take it away and you become a slave to them and your only job is too keep them in power with your vote

give that vote up or withhold it see how long the left cares about you.


alot of people have definfitions for conservatives many are wrong many people want to conserve what this country use to be but its too late.

whats wrong with this country is from the progressive agenda those social values and programs that have bankrupted this country.

people hate on the rich and those corporations but without them there is no money and no goods or services which everyone needs.

you need them.

why do you think people came to the new world from europe? TO GET AWAY FROM THAT STUPiDITY

its been here for a while now and we have no where to run to.



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by DerbyCityLights
 





Where do you think all that money from socolized programs comes from?


The Bankers create it out of thin air and loan it to the US government. Then we and our children and grandchildren pay the bankers back with our LABOR... Can you say SERFDOM???



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
Ha! You have GOT to be kidding!


Where do you think all that money from socolized programs comes from? If you dont know, you should do a little more research. There is no such thing as a Utopia and even if there was, I would not want to be a part of it. Talk about boreing and sterile....


No, the downfall of this country is the "entitled" mentality, backed by laziness and a sever lack of self respect.
edit on 26-5-2011 by DerbyCityLights because: (no reason given)


You are soooo right!



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by SG-17
Once upon a time the United States was the most progressive nation in the world ...


I would love to see you explain that statement.

What do you mean by that, since "once upon a time" EVERYONE in the U.S. had a much more conservative view of life in general than many people - especially so-called "progressives" and even many conservatives (to be fair) - do now?

BS alert!



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by SG-17
reply to post by DerbyCityLights
 


You'd be a great replacement for Glenn Beck with the way that you twist words.


Out with the personal attacks so early in this thread.



Too many people act against their own interests because they don't know any better.


And your answer to this "problem" is we ALL need to let the government, or some elitist like you
do our thinking for us?


Do you think that if everyone was aware at how high the quality of life and socially strong so many European nations are they would continue to vote for the people who are hell bent to keep us in the first half of the 20th century?


That "shining example" of the european nations again ... List out your favorite european nations and we'll be happy to post links showing you the real truth about these socialist "heavens on earth".




posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by SG-17
 





Do you think that if everyone was aware at how high the quality of life and socially strong so many European nations are they would continue to vote for the people who are hell bent to keep us in the first half of the 20th century?


high the quality of life and socially strong????



How about financially?

...All of this is smoke and mirrors propaganda, why ? Because the Government / Bank of England Wants / Needs HIGH Inflation, and has done so since the start of the financial crisis several years ago, as I will illustrate in this article, high real inflation remains the ONLY response that the Government and it's central bank have to deal with Britain's debt crisis (ever increasing debt mountain) as the alternative is to go down the same path as bankrupting Greece....

The Bank of England also downgraded the UK economies GDP growth forecast for 2011.... www.marketoracle.co.uk...



IFR-COMMENT: Greece restructuring worse than Lehman bankruptcy?
Tue Apr 26, 201

While the official line is that Greece does not need a restructuring, if one reads between the lines (and joins the dots) it is clear that a restructuring is not only possible but the most probable outcome. The ECB is against a debt restructuring from any Eurozone country but they now have a new warning from the ECB's Gonzalez-Paramo in the form of a restructuring being more damaging than Lehman's bankruptcy of Sept 2008.....



Debt Crisis: The EU is the fear of bankruptcy to Portugal

A threat of state bankruptcy Portugal produces great nervousness at the EU summit. He should adopt a historic € reform.


Concern about a bankruptcy Portugal strain on the EU summit in Brussels. The government crisis in Lisbon, speculation is rife that the highly indebted southern European country no longer do without help.

Portugal could soon emerge as the second candidate to Ireland in the Euro-rescue

....



Markets fend off Portugal crisis but will Spain break their back?

To all intents and purposes Portugal is already bankrupt, with its non-financial debt representing more than 410% of its GDP...

But on the other hand sit the problems in Spain – where at 354% the non-financial debt level is only marginally in the shadows of the figures for Portugal and Greece, yet its unemployment level far outstrips that of both countries.

....



Banking crisis hits Germany with full force

For the past 10 years, all of the cuts made in the public services have been justified with the argument that it was necessary to balance the German federal budget by the year 2011. This includes the anti-social measures (Agenda 2010) introduced by the previous Social Democratic Party-Green Party government.

Now, Finance Minister Peer Steinbrück (Social Democrats--SPD) has made €26.5 billion available to bail out a single German bank. Overnight, his budget targets have been thrown overboard.

With the imminent bankruptcy of the bank Hypo Real Estate (HRE), the financial crisis has hit Germany with full force....



Iceland crisis: what does "national bankruptcy" mean?

Oct 12, 2008 - Iceland's prime minister has raised the spectre of his country being at risk of "national bankruptcy" as a financial crisis took hold.

...If a country no longer has enough foreign currency to pay for imports, it typically must borrow funds from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) or other countries.

...The IMF historically has used its loans with member countries as leverage to push for changes in fiscal and economic policies....



...Structural Adjustment Policies are economic policies which countries must follow in order to qualify for new World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) loans and help them make debt repayments on the older debts owed to commercial banks, governments and the World Bank...

SAPs generally require countries to devalue their currencies against the dollar; lift import and export restrictions; balance their budgets and not overspend; and remove price controls and state subsidies...

....As a result, SAPs often result in deep cuts in programmes like education, health and social care, and the removal of subsidies designed to control the price of basics such as food and milk. So SAPs hurt the poor most, because they depend heavily on these services and subsidies....

By devaluing the currency and simultaneously removing price controls, the immediate effect of a SAP is generally to hike prices up three or four times, increasing poverty to such an extent that riots are a frequent result.



Now what was that you were saying about European countries???

edit on 26-5-2011 by crimvelvet because: added





posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:06 PM
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Those country have been messed up since time immemorial, I am talking about ones like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and the Netherlands
edit on 5/26/2011 by SG-17 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by The Old American
 





I'll simplify it for you, son. I am still taxed for it whether I want or need it....


I'll simplify it even more. Why the heck should I even try to work???

I have a buddy on Section eight who said she would show me the ropes on how to get welfare for a back injury like she did. She even makes a bit of extra money selling her prescription pain meds.

I had a severe back injury over thirty years ago so why should't I grab the government tit???



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by The Old American
 





I'll simplify it for you, son. I am still taxed for it whether I want or need it....


I'll simplify it even more. Why the heck should I even try to work???

I have a buddy on Section eight who said she would show me the ropes on how to get welfare for a back injury like she did. She even makes a bit of extra money selling her prescription pain meds.

I had a severe back injury over thirty years ago so why should't I grab the government tit???


You just exemplified the very essence of collectivity. You assume that just because you have one friend who is taking advantage of the rest of us, they must all be. What it tells me, however, is that you simply have lame friends.

The lenders in the banking industry are the biggest welfare recipients in the nation. They are also the biggest symbols of capitalism. Figure that one out. We screwed ourselves and it has nothing to do with ideology.



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by SG-17
 





Those country have been messed up since time immemorial, I am talking about ones like Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and the Netherlands


OK then how about Sweden? It illustrates the point I am trying to make beautifully.


Stopping a Financial Crisis, the Swedish Way

September 22, 2008

A banking system in crisis after the collapse of a housing bubble. An economy hemorrhaging jobs. A market-oriented government struggling to stem the panic. Sound familiar?

It does to Sweden. The country was so far in the hole in 1992 — after years of imprudent regulation, short-sighted economic policy and the end of its property boom — that its banking system was, for all practical purposes, insolvent.



But Sweden took a different course than the one now being proposed by the United States Treasury. And Swedish officials say there are lessons from their own nightmare that Washington may be missing.

Sweden did not just bail out its financial institutions by having the government take over the bad debts. It extracted pounds of flesh from bank shareholders before writing checks. Banks had to write down losses and issue warrants to the government.


That strategy held banks responsible and turned the government into an owner. When distressed assets were sold, the profits flowed to taxpayers, and the government was able to recoup more money later by selling its shares in the companies as well....

Sweden spent 4 percent of its gross domestic product,... to rescue ailing banks....

But the final cost to Sweden ended up being less than 2 percent of its G.D.P.....

A few American commentators have proposed that the United States government extract equity from banks as a price for their rescue. But it does not seem to be under serious consideration yet in the Bush administration or Congress.

The reason is not quite clear. The government has already swapped its sovereign guarantee for equity in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the mortgage finance institutions, and the American International Group, the global insurance giant.

Putting taxpayers on the hook without anything in return could be a mistake, said Urban Backstrom, a senior Swedish finance ministry official at the time. “The public will not support a plan if you leave the former shareholders with anything,” he said....


So Sweden DID have a financial crisis but they went after the bankers instead of letting the bankers hang the taxpayers out to dry as FDR did in 1933 and Bush/Obama did now.


... "The Prime Minister of England came here for money! He came here to collect cash!

"He came here with Fed Currency and other claims against the Fed which England had bought up in all parts of the world. And he has presented them for redemption in gold.

"Mr. Chairman, I am in favor of compelling the Fed to pay their own debts. I see no reason why the general public should be forced to pay the gambling debts of the International Bankers...."

"..."At noon on the 4th of March, 1933, FDR with his hand on the Bible, took an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the U.S. At midnight on the 5th of March, 1933, he confiscated the property of American citizens. He took the currency of the United States standard of value. He repudiated the internal debt of the Government to its own citizens. He destroyed the value of the American dollar. He released, or endeavored to release, the Fed from their contractual liability to redeem Fed currency in gold or lawful money on a parity with gold. He depreciated the value of the national currency.

"The people of the U.S. are now using unredeemable paper slips for money. The Treasury cannot reeem that paper in gold or silver. The gold and silver of the Treasury has unlawfully been given to the corrupt and dishonest Fed...."
Remarks in Congress, 1934 by Congressman, Louis T. McFadden



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by SG-17
 


No European nation is socialist. Socialist European nations are as much a stereotype for socialist success as the US and U.K are portrayed as having a capitalist system. Scandinavian countries (many people consider them to be socialist) have more economic freedom then the U.S in several areas even though the U.S ranks higher in overall freedom, but business freedom, investment freedom, financial freedom, property rights, and freedom from corruption all go to Scandinavia. Sweden isn't a bad place I live there every summer with my dad, it just isn't the utopia that many people try to make it out to be. Sweden has its problems just like any other country, people need to look past Stockholm in order to see it though.



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 02:57 PM
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reply to post by Cuervo
 





You just exemplified the very essence of collectivity. You assume that just because you have one friend who is taking advantage of the rest of us, they must all be.


ONE friend???
I have lived in the inner city/"combat zone" of several cities. I have met a heck of a lot more people who were taking advantage of the system vs those who really needed it.

Funny thing is the ones who really need it are usually the one reluctant to ask and are often the ones turned down. And yes those are the ones I have tried to help.

The amount of corruption I have seen in Social Services here in the USA makes me ILL!



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by Cuervo
 





You just exemplified the very essence of collectivity. You assume that just because you have one friend who is taking advantage of the rest of us, they must all be.


ONE friend???
I have lived in the inner city/"combat zone" of several cities. I have met a heck of a lot more people who were taking advantage of the system vs those who really needed it.

Funny thing is the ones who really need it are usually the one reluctant to ask and are often the ones turned down. And yes those are the ones I have tried to help.

The amount of corruption I have seen in Social Services here in the USA makes me ILL!


I agree. We are doing it wrong. That doesn't mean "it" is wrong. On a federal level? Yeah, demolish it. But I want my taxes to pay for the needy and for my healthcare and for my children's tuition and not pay for the healthcare and tuitions of all the bankers' kids or for the needy in foreign countries who are only needy because we bombed them or... I could keep going.

The concept of welfare is a good one. Just make it localized.



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by DerbyCityLights
Ha! You have GOT to be kidding!


There is no such thing as a Utopia and even if there was, I would not want to be a part of it. Talk about boreing and sterile....
(no reason given)


Even if there was Utopia you wouldn't want any part of it? You will have to explain your reasoning to me as that statement is a pure contradiction of what Utopia means. BTW it wouldn't be Utopia if it was boring and sterile.
edit on 26-5-2011 by sligtlyskeptical because: not sure why text is small?



posted on May, 26 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by SG-17
reply to post by DerbyCityLights
 


Why don't you actually explain how democratic socialism negatively impacts our personal freedoms, or can't you?


I like your path of thinking. Sweden is certainly a model for a lot of things good and how to them.

They are also a model for standing on the sideline when the world is at war like a bunch of chumps, but never shy about turning a profit on said wars.

I would not want a Swede in my fox hole.



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