It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Non believers, I have a simple non offensive question

page: 3
4
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 28 2011 @ 02:59 PM
link   
I hate to break it to ya guys but when you die its like an eternal sleep. Yes your body is technically immortal because the universe wastes no energy but consciously I think we cease to exist. I would love to be proved wrong one day. Or maybe not sleep isn't that bad. Just my opinion like everyone else no one knows for sure and that's the wonder of it all.




posted on May, 28 2011 @ 03:06 PM
link   

Originally posted by shamaniski
I hate to break it to ya guys but when you die its like an eternal sleep. Yes your body is technically immortal because the universe wastes no energy but consciously I think we cease to exist. I would love to be proved wrong one day. Or maybe not sleep isn't that bad. Just my opinion like everyone else no one knows for sure and that's the wonder of it all.




You're body is much more then just meat my friend.

I hope one day you'll realize that




posted on May, 28 2011 @ 03:07 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 



IF we destroy ourselves sometime in the future would you blame God? Since i know you don't believe in such a thing obviously you would not... some would though.


No, i claimed that we can't change that fate, the Andromeda Gallaxy will collide with our own. I'm not talking about self destruction, i'm talking about inevitable destruction. Our struggle with a chaotic universe.

If we are to believe in your God, yes, i would agree he IS indifferent - He doesn't care who lives or dies, and our species nearly came close to extinction at one point. Why would he care if the Sun boils our oceans?

You believe in him, and you claim we will get our rewards after death despite not having the capacity for memory, or any other senses. You believe this despite the lack of evidence, I'm challenging that within the reasonable context of debate;

And i'll say again, the only person who should be deemed unfit for civil discussion are those who claim to know what happens after death.
edit on 28/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2011 @ 03:40 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


yup, some things are unavoidable... sooner or later earth will come to an end. Death is a natural part of life my friend, even for planets.




posted on May, 28 2011 @ 03:49 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


Woah, i didn't know that. That's adds another level to the debate. I feel more enlightened. You've also answered any question or argument i've posed. Such wise words, you're nearly peaking at "Guru" levels like IAMIAM.
edit on 28/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2011 @ 03:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Akragon
 


Woah, i didn't know that. That's adds another level to the debate. I feel more enlightened. You've also answered any question or argument i've posed. Such wise words, you're nearly peaking at "Guru" levels like IAMIAM.
edit on 28/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)


More sarcasim eh...

you're on a roll today..




posted on May, 28 2011 @ 04:05 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 



yup, some things are unavoidable... sooner or later earth will come to an end. Death is a natural part of life my friend, even for planets.


Well was your short response sarcasm or just stating the obvious? I'm curious, the discussion is always deflected in this way, and your short unlettered responses are quite often predictable.



posted on May, 28 2011 @ 04:14 PM
link   

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Akragon
 



yup, some things are unavoidable... sooner or later earth will come to an end. Death is a natural part of life my friend, even for planets.


Well was your short response sarcasm or just stating the obvious? I'm curious, the discussion is always deflected in this way, and your short unlettered responses are quite often predictable.


What do you think?

I have no reason to be sarcastic... And death is natural and a part of life... this is a simple fact.

I'll let you figure it out... you can do it man!
(ya thats sarcasim
)


edit on 28-5-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2011 @ 04:25 PM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 





What do i think? You were stating the obvious, a two-line post about life not being eternal - Nothing inciteful and no progression of debate.

Smugness radiates from your user profile.



My apologises for deflecting from the OP; and again i claim those who claim to know the unknown with a lack of reason and a lack of evidence will forever imprison the minds of the gullible, and cause false hope and false fear.

Concepts of Purgotory and Hellfire preached by the "messengers" of God have caused torment throughout history. I'm fighting that. I hope more will realise an enemy when they see one.
edit on 28/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 28 2011 @ 07:47 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


hahahaha!! LMAO!!!

dude that picture is frickin great!!


You were stating the obvious, a two-line post about life not being eternal - Nothing inciteful and no progression of debate.


I was stateing the obvious, glad you picked up on that...

First things first.... my innital post in this thread was not directed at you. You comented on my post that had nothing to do with you, here...


How would this guy know what happens when we die? The only person who has to lose in this debate is those who say they do know.

Those should not be considered in an intellectual debate, or at least you should immediately be on guard.


So whos being smug?

I wasn't even talking to you!

Secondly... Since i wasn't talking to you, do you really think i have to address every single sentence you type?

Considing the usual way you go about "debating" im hardly interested in chating it up. Not to mention the fact that theres been two times now that you've said " i don't want to talk to you anymore"

So why are you talking to me?

Not that i care honestly, but if you're going to be your usual sarcastic (most times rude...dickish? in your own words...) self. I'd rather not bother with you...

this...


Concepts of Purgotory and Hellfire preached by the "messengers" of God have caused torment throughout history. I'm fighting that. I hope more will realise an enemy when they see one.


Has nothing to do with me... If you think im one of these types... clearly you know nothing of what i speak.

Either way i don't need to address every sentence you type... but i will just for arguements sake


If we are to believe in your God, yes, i would agree he IS indifferent - He doesn't care who lives or dies, and our species nearly came close to extinction at one point. Why would he care if the Sun boils our oceans?


Im not asking you to believe in anything... nor do i care what you believe.


You believe in him, and you claim we will get our rewards after death despite not having the capacity for memory, or any other senses. You believe this despite the lack of evidence, I'm challenging that within the reasonable context of debate


Yes i believe that regardless of any evidence that exists to prove it.

Now rewards i don't remember saying anything about... so you'll have to explain that one.

As for the memory part, many people recall past lives. I wish i was one of those people so i can't even say i have absolute proof of reincarnation aside from scripture or hearsay. The lessons you learn in each incarnation affect your comming incarnation or in biblical terms... Gods work is manifest in the lives of men.

A good example is from Pistis Sophia

A "man who curses" is given a body that will be continually "troubled in heart". A "man who slanders" receives a body that will be "oppressed". A thief receives a "lame, crooked and blind body". A "proud" and "scornful" man receives "a lame and ugly body" that "everyone continually despises." Thus earth, as well as hell, becomes the place of punishment.

And finally...


And i'll say again, the only person who should be deemed unfit for civil discussion are those who claim to know what happens after death


This isn't your topic who are you to think you can just take control of it and attempt to eject others who you don't agree with?

There was one post i do remember from you though... it seems to scream at me everytime i talk to you...

"i have a general rule of "don't be a dick" ...be nice to others"

So my question yet again is...

Dude, why are you always such a dick?

:shk:

And why are you staring at my profile!!?!?~!!



Smugness radiates from your user profile.





edit on 28-5-2011 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 29 2011 @ 04:25 AM
link   
reply to post by Akragon
 


interesting story, squire.

I fully considered it.



posted on May, 29 2011 @ 06:04 AM
link   

Originally posted by Mike.Ockizard
reply to post by markosity1973
 




There are belief systems where the understanding is that while life is not totally pointless, its really just a way of a single source of all experiencing itself. I dont subscribe to this or any other religious dogma but it's worth consideration. This idea feeds the notion that there really is no right or wrong and that you cant have one (right) without the other (wrong).


I am aware of this notion - that of ying and yang and the idea that negative and positive energies live in balance. The question I ask about that concept though is are they really balanced? Look at 2011 for instance - it would appear with all the natural disasters happening that ying and yang are not balanced.



So, if you had never even heard of christianity or religion in general, you would have no hope? Hopeless? Lost?


No, I can think for myself and I have a sense of self worth. I also have a reasonably high IQ and I question everything before I put my personal belief in it. If I were one of the Apostles, I would be Thomas the doubter because I never take anything on face value. Put quite simply, I believe because I have experienced things that are inexplicable and I still struggle with the why's and how's to this day. It is also why I do respect other people's belief or lack of them re God et al.



I used to think this way but couldnt figure out why someone who didnt know the "rules" but led a wholesome, productive and peaceful life could be condemmed to burn in hell for eternity. That doesnt fit with a loving god. The whole "wrath" and "vengefull" god thing doesnt wash for me anymore. If god can destroy for a reason, then it leaves the door open for it to be ok if you have a good reason. If you ever watch someone die, even if they are "evil" or harming someone, you understand that no matter what the reason, its not ok to do that to someone, much less an entire population(like god does in the old testament).


I agree that the old testament seems like the writings of a young angry God that would 'scudzap' any one who was looking at the sky funny. And you have touched on a very typical perversion of Christianity where people justify their misdeeds by taking parts of scripture out of context and perverting it for the cause of unspeakable deeds. I will say this though - Christianity is the new testament. The old testament is really only there as a retrospective work and because Jesus said that it is still valid, but he also said he was the new covenant ie a new agreement with God and therefore you have to refer to it first.

To be completely honest, if it were not for my afforementioned experiences in the supernatural, I would think the bible is pure fantasy, or a politically motivated piece of mind control propaganda.



posted on May, 29 2011 @ 06:21 AM
link   

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

A common misconception is that Atheists do not believe in anything (nihilism)

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in a DEITY.

Atheism isn't even a disbelief in the supernatural, but i'd imagine most (rational) Atheists would want some pretty convincing evidence.

You may get pro-abortionist Atheists, you may get anti-abortionist Atheists! There is no pre-subscribed beliefs to adhere to.



I totally understand where you are coming from. I see more atheism as more of a rejection of all religious systems than a downright rejection of the supernatural. I think of it like this: Have you ever noticed when you buy a new car, that you suddenly notice the same make and model as you have on the road everywhere, even though you may not have really been bothered about them before you purchased your one? In other words once you make a decision (conscious or subcnoscious) your conscious mind starts seeing evidence everywhere to support that decision. So, an Atheist will find evidence everywhere to support his or her lack of belief in deities and the faithful will likewise see evidence everywhere to support their beliefs in the same deity the atheist denies exists.

Even the most pure atheist will at times find themselves admitting that there are things that simply cannot be rationally explained away. For those of us who have faith, those inexplicable supernatual things are the 'proof' that justify our belief systems. I think we will both agree that the systems that administer and tend to faith (aka religious organisations) are quite flawed.


What becomes of us when we die?

To answer your question personally - What became of you in 1600? what about 1872? That's how i imagine death.


Intriguing answer. One that hints that you may believe that the essence of ourselves could exist outside the realms of space and time. (Unless I have misinterpreted you)



posted on May, 30 2011 @ 09:23 AM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 



I see more atheism as more of a rejection of all religious systems than a downright rejection of the supernatural.


Firstly, you're right - Atheism is rejection of a Deity. Atheists reject Theism (religion) because it's dogma is founded on the basis of a deity.

Not only does the Theist claim the truth to "GOD" but furthermore claims to know the Deity's wishes and commandments, and can claim what the Deity does with certain species after death.

And again, the rational Atheist normally demands evidence, hence the position - supernatural by definition is something beyond natural. It's another metaphysical claim, unprovable.


...once you make a decision (conscious or subcnoscious) your conscious mind starts seeing evidence everywhere to support that decision.


Of course. I've noticed that. But a consciouss decision to put faith in a God theory is a lot different. And of course, if you assume God you just assume that everything has been caused by God, which is easy enough position to assume, and you can inferr everything to God, Evolution negates intelligent design? God made evolution, it's an unwinnable argument, does that make it a valid argument?

Where does our morality come from? "God wills it."
How are trees formed?" "God wiilled them"
Why do animals go extinct? "God wills it"
Cancer? God...
Love? God.
Goodness? God.

Similarly, if i was to put faith that aliens had visited Earth and i was unaware of certain NATURAL phenomenon my mind might lead me to certain conclusions based on my own ignorance. (Just an example, i'm not saying aliens don't exist, or havn't visited earth)

In other words: i could easily be mistaken due to my own prejudices of belief, that i have put strong faith in.


For those of us who have faith, those inexplicable supernatual things are the 'proof' that justify our belief systems.


As stated in my response above, if you are to put faith based on "instinct" or because you've made a consciouss decision to believe a certain theory you run the RISK of being proved wrong.

It's happened before in the past. Many had faith that natural disasters such as Earthquakes, Floods, Tsunamis and Tornadoes were "punishment" sent from the Deity for "sin" .... Of course we later learnt that we live on a heating and cooling planet, and we soon dropped the supernatural beliefs.


Intriguing answer. One that hints that you may believe that the essence of ourselves could exist outside the realms of space and time.


Not sure that i implied that in my answer. I'm an existentialist.

There's many "singularity" theories out there such as the "holographic universe".

It's hard to work out the semantics though:-


the essence of ourselves could exist outside the realms of space and time.


Well, isn't our brain the very machine that allows for the memory, our central nervous system allowing us to see, feel touch, smell?

When this machine is depleted, or is no longer functional, how do you expect to be able to percieve anything? Whether it's within "the realms of space and time" or not?

I mean, i guess i don't deny the possibility but there certainly is no evidence that would make me put faith in such a theory.

Again, the doors of my mind are always open, i think skeptical enquiry is a technique used by those who are interested in the truth.

I'll leave with the message that everything is possible, but not everything is probable. But we all like suprises...some of them anyway (Hell wouldn't be a nice suprise! Especially as i consider myself and honest and kind person, Lord have mercy on my soul!)
edit on 30/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2011 @ 05:44 AM
link   

Originally posted by awake_and_aware




Not only does the Theist claim the truth to "GOD" but furthermore claims to know the Deity's wishes and commandments, and can claim what the Deity does with certain species after death.


I would say that you have pronounced a half truth here. If we take Christianity as an example, any person who claims that the bible is 100% literal truth or that every single little thing that exists on this planet to be the work of God, then they are deluded. We as humans are far more that puppets on a string. So anyone that purely sees God (or his adversary) in all creation is not giving humanity credit for their own free will and their creative abilities.



Where does our morality come from? "God wills it."
How are trees formed?" "God wiilled them"
Why do animals go extinct? "God wills it"
Cancer? God...
Love? God.
Goodness? God.


To make these sorts of claims is missing the point. God is more of an observer and occasional direct moderator than a puppet master. Such claims are based by both believers and non alike more from blind ignorance and an easy answer than intelligent reasoning.



Similarly, if i was to put faith that aliens had visited Earth and i was unaware of certain NATURAL phenomenon my mind might lead me to certain conclusions based on my own ignorance. (Just an example, i'm not saying aliens don't exist, or havn't visited earth)

In other words: i could easily be mistaken due to my own prejudices of belief, that i have put strong faith in.


I couldn't agree more. As an example, stain on a window that kind of resembles the Virgin Mary is nothing more that people seeing what they want to see instead of a genuine supernatural experience. But there are other examples that I could provide evidence of that have been scientifically analysed and the scientists will cautiously admit that science cannot explain the phenomena at this point in time



As stated in my response above, if you are to put faith based on "instinct" or because you've made a consciouss decision to believe a certain theory you run the RISK of being proved wrong.


Once again, I totally agree. As I have also stated, there are things that I could show you that I would love to hear rational and scientific explanations for. The thing is that science hasn't yet managed to understand them. Believe me, it would be far easier for me to believe that some of the things I have seen and witnessed are trickery or a fraud, but so far there is no solid evidence to show me how I have been 'fooled'



It's happened before in the past. Many had faith that natural disasters such as Earthquakes, Floods, Tsunamis and Tornadoes were "punishment" sent from the Deity for "sin" .... Of course we later learnt that we live on a heating and cooling planet, and we soon dropped the supernatural beliefs.


You gotta love ignorance. It is the cause of so much angst in this life.....




the essence of ourselves could exist outside the realms of space and time.

I mean, i guess i don't deny the possibility but there certainly is no evidence that would make me put faith in such a theory.

Again, the doors of my mind are always open, i think skeptical enquiry is a technique used by those who are interested in the truth.


I will openly admit that the truth is that not a single one of us will ever know until our own hour of death arrives. If you are at peace with your belief that we simply switch off like a television set, then who am I to challenge you on that belief?

The odd thing about myself and Christianity is that I should be the last person who believes, considering that the bible makes it very clear that I am not welcome. But unless I suffer from some strange form of highly lucid psychosis (which I am open to accepting if proof can be shown to me in a humane and believable manner) then the experiences I have had are simply supernatural in that there is no rational explanation beyond the face value of them.



I'll leave with the message that everything is possible, but not everything is probable. But we all like suprises...some of them anyway (Hell wouldn't be a nice suprise! Especially as i consider myself and honest and kind person, Lord have mercy on my soul!)


A person's religious beliefs or lack there of have nothing to do with their basic morality. I am sure you will agree that there are loads of rotten to the core Christians and like yourself, there are loads of very decent Atheists and Anti theists. My belief system (which is Catholic) allows for the possibility (If we are of course right in the first place about God etc) that a person who has not known God, but is virtuous and kind in life may still enter heaven at God's discretion. So, if you are in for surprises, at least I can believe a nice person like yourself might be in for a nice one

edit on 31-5-2011 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 31 2011 @ 10:44 AM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 



I would say that you have pronounced a half truth here.


Half-truth? Theism is exactly what i explained.


theism refers to a doctrine concerning the nature of a monotheistic God and God's relationship to the universe.[2][3] Theism, in this specific sense, conceives of God as personal, present and active in the governance and organization of the world and the universe.


Again, it's one claim to say that a "GOD" exists, but then to claim exactly how the Deity exists, requires wisdom that is unknowable, a frankly obviously man-made.

That's the very basic reason i am against religion. Secondally, especially with mono-theistic religions; i despise the immoral preaching that is passed off as the will of "GOD". Mostly, it's because of the years of torment religion has caused, and is still causing.

I don't condemn charity, peace, kindness or love but just because religion claims to offer these things does not make it a good thing for us.


If we take Christianity as an example, any person who claims that the bible is 100% literal truth or that every single little thing that exists on this planet to be the work of God, then they are deluded.


Agreed. It's easy to understand why there are so many religions when we accept that religion is man-made.


So anyone that purely sees God (or his adversary) in all creation is not giving humanity credit for their own free will and their creative abilities.


The Theist's argument is that God created all, and thus created us, and gave us free will, and we must use that free will in accordance with "GOD's" will. Make sense? Doesn't to me. Many Christians and other believers claim we have to make the "right" choice ourselves , which is conveninent for their argument?


To make these sorts of claims is missing the point.


It's not though, If God is everything, he created everything; that includes us, that includes cancer, disease, termites, and the design is that in a few million years the Andromeda Gallaxy will slam into our own.

The problem of evil:-


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


It's not that i don't admire the chaos, and find beauty in it; but remind me why i have to believe this was willed into existence by some being, and if i do arrive at that conclusion, why should i like this being?

Why is the assumption of causality have to be labelled God, and why do we expect this God is consciouss?


But there are other examples that I could provide evidence of that have been scientifically analysed and the scientists will cautiously admit that science cannot explain the phenomena at this point in time


Sometimes it can't. Sometimes it doesn't have the means, does that make it supernatural? If science can't work it out, it must be supernatural?


The thing is that science hasn't yet managed to understand them. Believe me, it would be far easier for me to believe that some of the things I have seen and witnessed are trickery or a fraud, but so far there is no solid evidence to show me how I have been 'fooled'


There's no evidence to suggests that Mediums can't speak to dead people. But name one who has been willing to be tested under reasonable experimental conditions.


You gotta love ignorance. It is the cause of so much angst in this life.....


Indeed, gotta hate it! Ignorance should be the enemy. And we should be happy to admit when we have been ignorant, I think this type of honesty and nobility is what will push us into the future.


I will openly admit that the truth is that not a single one of us will ever know until our own hour of death arrives.


And even then, we may never know.


. If you are at peace with your belief that we simply switch off like a television set, then who am I to challenge you on that belief?



The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one - George Bernard Shaw


Challenging ideas and theories is what allows for new types of thinking. Challenging social norms (slavery) or challenging someones political position or even their views on a sports team.

I don't think a belief in the supernatural or someones religious beliefs should be excempt from criticism or debate.


the experiences I have had are simply supernatural in that there is no rational explanation beyond the face value of them.


By no means would i state that you didn't experience what you experienced, but in discussion subjective accounts can't be considered as valid arguments.

I've had plenty of experiences where i have been mistaken, and for Christianity to be proved true to me in an experience would take quite a bit of conviction.

I've experimented with halucinogens and never has any of my "experiences" led me to the conclusion that i am being watched 24/7 by a supernatural dictator/judger, nor has it led me to put faith in a particular theory of how the universe is formed, or how it's managed and "overseen".


A person's religious beliefs or lack there of have nothing to do with their basic morality.


I should hope not. But if a belief in God is to be seen as virtuous, then prejudice can be formed in believers to think that Atheists are not being "virtuous" or "pious". (Whether it's a Theist or a Deist)


I am sure you will agree that there are loads of rotten to the core Christians and like yourself, there are loads of very decent Atheists and Anti theists.


Thanks, I think you'll find it quite hard to find an account where someone killed in the name of "Atheism" - Whereas on the otherside of the house, it's fairly easy to do something in the name of God, thinking that it truly is "holy".


My belief system (which is Catholic) allows for the possibility (If we are of course right in the first place about God etc) that a person who has not known God, but is virtuous and kind in life may still enter heaven at God's discretion. So, if you are in for surprises, at least I can believe a nice person like yourself might be in for a nice one


Well thanks, I don't really mention my moral positions or what i am like in character, which leaves people thinking i'm some heartless, soullesss Atheist who doesn't have any morals.

You're last paragraph reminded me of an interesting little dialogue:-


“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”


Peace, it's been nice discussing with you.
edit on 31/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 1 2011 @ 02:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by markosity1973
 




That's the very basic reason i am against religion. Secondally, especially with mono-theistic religions; i despise the immoral preaching that is passed off as the will of "GOD". Mostly, it's because of the years of torment religion has caused, and is still causing.


I can share your pain on that one. I too have been tormented by religion, I was preyed upon by a rogue priest if you know what I mean. This and many many other reasons are why I too would find it more convenient to not believe. In fact, for the longest time I had stopped believing. I won't go into why I started to believe again, as this thread is not to preach or convert.





The Theist's argument is that God created all, and thus created us, and gave us free will, and we must use that free will in accordance with "GOD's" will. Make sense? Doesn't to me. Many Christians and other believers claim we have to make the "right" choice ourselves , which is conveninent for their argument?

It's not though, If God is everything, he created everything; that includes us, that includes cancer, disease, termites, and the design is that in a few million years the Andromeda Gallaxy will slam into our own.

The problem of evil:-


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”


It's not that i don't admire the chaos, and find beauty in it; but remind me why i have to believe this was willed into existence by some being, and if i do arrive at that conclusion, why should i like this being?

Why is the assumption of causality have to be labelled God, and why do we expect this God is consciouss?


Let me give you a human analogy to help you understand my understanding of this concept. As I understand where you are coming from.

Imagine if you or I were to go plant a tree in a park or forest. Let's say an orange tree for arguments sake. Now to the tree, I would be the one who gave it life, because I planted the seed in the ground. I have done nothing else, but without that seed being put in the ground, it would never have germinated.

So, as time goes by, the tree grows and eventually bears oranges. The only input I have in the tree's growth is maybe paying it a visit every now and then and maybe pruning or fertilizing it.

Other people come along and see the oranges and they pick them and eat them. So, why are the oranges there? Are they there because I planted the tree in the first place, or is it because that is just what an orange tree does? Who do the people who eat the fruit thank, the tree or the person who planted it?

What if the tree gets a disease, whithers and dies? Is it my fault for planting it in the first place? or is it something that I didn't expect to happen when I planted it? What if some vandal comes along and rips the tree from the ground? Is that the will of me who planted it in the first place?
What if one of the fruit drops on the ground and a new tree germinates? Am I responsible for giving that tree life too? What about all the other trees that may be planted from seeds from it? Who gets the credit for them?

So, you see as illustrated in that analogy, God may have created the earth and all that stuff I am sure you know about, but that does not mean that every single little detail is his doing. Some things just 'happen' and strict religious belief does not adequately explain this unless you have a grasp of the above concept.



But there are other examples that I could provide evidence of that have been scientifically analysed and the scientists will cautiously admit that science cannot explain the phenomena at this point in time

Sometimes it can't. Sometimes it doesn't have the means, does that make it supernatural? If science can't work it out, it must be supernatural?


I am talking about scientifically tested 'miracles' here. Take weeping statues as an example. These have even been DNA tested and given CAT scans with astonishing results that prove that the tears or blood is of unique human DNA and that the statues contain no devices within that could produce the fraud you would expect.

My apologies if the word supernatural does not sit well with you. But no matter what word we could use, the above is an example of what I am referring to.




Challenging ideas and theories is what allows for new types of thinking. Challenging social norms (slavery) or challenging someones political position or even their views on a sports team.

I don't think a belief in the supernatural or someones religious beliefs should be excempt from criticism or debate.


Totally agreed. Jesus on a pizza for instance is ridiculous in the extreme, the list of fraudulent and plain stupid claims that people make is very very long indeed. So is the concept that the bible says throw rocks at people, so we must do it and so on. Any religious or supernatural belief must be tempered with some common sense and serve the greater good of mankind or it is bunk in my eyes.


the experiences I have had are simply supernatural in that there is no rational explanation beyond the face value of them

By no means would i state that you didn't experience what you experienced, but in discussion subjective accounts can't be considered as valid arguments.


I know that it is hard for an Atheist to accept subjective experiences due to the lack of scientific data to back them up. I would never ask anyone to believe based upon my own personal experiences.



I've experimented with halucinogens and never has any of my "experiences" led me to the conclusion that i am being watched 24/7 by a supernatural dictator/judger, nor has it led me to put faith in a particular theory of how the universe is formed, or how it's managed and "overseen".


Deliberate and willful manipulation of the operation of the brain is somewhat different to an experience that happens in a genuine religious experience. Granted that the experience when using mind altering drugs could be similar / the same as a religious one. But to me, there is a subtle difference; When someone like a child visionary receives a vision, it is like God dialing in to that persons' mind. i.e they were not expecting a call. When one uses hallucinogens, one is dialing out from their mind ie they are knowingly making a call, but they are dialing a random number. This is why the experiences can be so varied and go from amazing to hellish.



I think you'll find it quite hard to find an account where someone killed in the name of "Atheism" - Whereas on the otherside of the house, it's fairly easy to do something in the name of God, thinking that it truly is "holy".


Agreed and there will be loads and loads and loads of people burning in hell (assuming that it exists) for doing such things in God's name - once again working on the assumption that God exists. Outside of the existence of God and in human realms, these are evil hypocritical people who should be brought to justice.



You're last paragraph reminded me of an interesting little dialogue:-


“Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"”



Love it
It so sounds like the sort of joke a good priest would tell in a Sunday sermon.

Peace to you also. In my mind, there is no reason why Atheists and believers need to be enemies. In fact in a way they can become great friends if truth is their common goal.



posted on Jun, 1 2011 @ 10:52 AM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 


Apolgoies in advance for the short post.


Jesus on a pizza for instance is ridiculous in the extreme


Yet you believe Bleeding/weeping statues have been "scientifically tested"?

You're not wiling to accept the posibility of a fraud, that someone may have planted something, or tainted the evidence?

Please offer me the scientific findings, how the tests were conducted etc.


My apologies if the word supernatural does not sit well with you.


It's not that it doesn't "sit well" with me, but by definition it means "beyond natural" - Again, we've always claimed something was "supernatural" until evidence comes out explaining it as a natural process.

Miracles:-

Miracles, by is the temporary suspension of the natural order. Name one academic, one physcist, astronomer, biologist who has ever conclusively proved a "miracle".

The only miraculous thing is that there are no miracles, the Sun doesn't miraculously stop in the sky, we don't all suddenly escape the gravitational pull of the Earth. People arn't saved by gravity when falling from large buildings.

edit on 1/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 2 2011 @ 05:37 PM
link   
reply to post by awake_and_aware
 

No worries re the short post.

I am not surprised that you want to see scientific data, and I will find the vids I have watched and post them after work today. I understand that in this day and age with CGI etc it can be difficult to accept what you see via visual media.

In the meantime, I will give you a vid to watch that I have posted many times for you to consider - I have posted this vid many times because of it's documentary style presentation and the fact that it does weigh in some scientific opinion.

I don't ask you to suddenly believe or change any of your thinking, so please do not be offended by it It is just an example of what I am talking about. As an Atheist, I ask you to watch it and maybe take it on faith that something did happen, otherwise why did all those people turn up to see night after night? What I would love to hear is an objective opinion on what you think it was.

Remember, that because I am a believer it does not mean that I am not open minded. If there is a concrete scientific explanation, I will believe that over the word miracle any day.

Take a look and see how many people saw this and note how even the president of Egypt saw it. The Government even made an official statement declaring it to have really happened. A couple of scientists give their opinions on it, in relation to the photography and film.

In my opinion, it is either a) really who they say it is, or b) an extremely advanced holographic projection - way ahead of its time considering it happened in the 1960's.




posted on Jun, 2 2011 @ 06:08 PM
link   
reply to post by markosity1973
 


Or it's a mass delusion...which is sort of obvious considering the 'miracle of the sun' and the three secrets stuff...

When you get a crowd of people things can easily devolve into groupthink.




top topics



 
4
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join