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“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Originally posted by Greatest I am
In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.
I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
Originally posted by Konstantinos
Did Adam & Eve know the difference between good evil before eating of the Tree of Knowledge?
There is also the question if Eve would've eaten the fruit if she had not been tempted by the serpent, and also, how did Satan (Serpent) get into Eden when that location was pure?
As for moral sense, Christianity is devoid of such a concept. It has an idea of obedience for fear of punishment from an all-powerful dictator, but that is not an idea of morality.
Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by Greatest I am
Hmm I take a different approach to this story, which I do classify as fiction......
Adam and Eve represent the primitive humans occupying earth. These "humans" were human in look only (well neanderthal whatever) and acted much like animals in the wild. They just lived.
This notion of them eating the forbidden fruit, I take, as the very first steps toward civilization.
The "garden" represents a time when 'man' was merely another animal in nature, the fall of man out of the garden represents the change from animal to what we consider sentient life. with that comes good and bad. Because we are no longer mere animals, we develop language, skills like farming instead of hunting, cooking, start to group together in tribes.
But because we are no longer just animals, all the trappings of humanity come into play, greed, lust, hate, war, all of that.
This is how I view that story, for us to move into the modern age of enlightenment, we had to give up the peace, pure peace, we would have enjoyed as merely another mammal on this planet.
just my thoughts
Originally posted by treespeaker
I don't know, I can imagine a time when we did not have a concience, and acted only out of a sense of known purpose.
I think this is the chief thing that seperates us from the other life on earth, the moral delema's. If you could ask most critters "why are you here" they would asnswer to be a _____.(add whatever it is).
From what I gather the original plan was to retain our animal instict for action with a modified intelligence ratio so to make a devine animal, unfortunately we choose to add the contentment/fear as to have a choice as to how we "feel" about stuff.
I'm not sure the trade off is really worth it in the long haul, makes working together to a common purpose almost impossible,
Peace
Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Greatest I am
Hi DL.
Good questions here and this is something I've thought long about in the past ("How on earth could god want us ignorant...?").
In reflection on people and the bible, though, it sems to make sense to me. As Paul taught in Romans, "Sin is not imputed where there is no law", and christ teaches us in Matthew:
“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Children and the ignorant are innocent of all guilt if they are ignorant of having committed offense, even in our own courts (age limitations and mitigating factors might be present in our system, based on certain details of course) - and thus free from judgement.
Just my thoughts, thanks.
Sidenote:
I do of course value my moral sense and directions...but to not have to worry about such things in the first place might be a blessing.edit on 5/25/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Praetorius
reply to post by Greatest I am
Hi DL.
Good questions here and this is something I've thought long about in the past ("How on earth could god want us ignorant...?").
In reflection on people and the bible, though, it sems to make sense to me. As Paul taught in Romans, "Sin is not imputed where there is no law", and christ teaches us in Matthew:
“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Children and the ignorant are innocent of all guilt if they are ignorant of having committed offense, y]
Originally posted by CuresRiches
Originally posted by Konstantinos
Originally posted by Greatest I am
In Eden, this study came in the form of a tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam and Eve, as neophytes to life, were not aware of what was good or evil because they had yet to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and had yet to develop morals, until after absorbing the information set out by God for their consumption.
This assumes of course that God wanted man with autonomy and a moral sense.
Well you're making an assumption here that Theologians have been struggling with for generations.
Did Adam & Eve know the difference between good evil before eating of the Tree of Knowledge?
There is also the question if Eve would've eaten the fruit if she had not been tempted by the serpent, and also, how did Satan (Serpent) get into Eden when that location was pure?
Anyhow, my thoughts are that both Adam and Eve were already autonomous, and already knew the difference between right and wrong.
The serpent played on their egos to disobey God, and the "shame" and "knowledge" they gained was the realization of the consequences of their action.
I was always taught, that had they asked for forgiveness they would not have been (permanently) expelled from the garden, but instead tried to unload the blame and guilt.
Just my 2 cents...edit on 25-5-2011 by Konstantinos because: Typos, woot!
Originally posted by followtheevidence
reply to post by Greatest I am
I find it strange that Christians see our gaining of a moral sense as a fall. Christians do not seem to give a high value to their moral sense and think that we were in Eden strictly to obey and not learn that we are autonomous beings.
I'm no theologian or philosopher, merely a christian laymen learning to think like one (hopefully, as I've given this question and its corollaries a lot of thought). Here's my .02¢ ...
Adam and Eve didn't come to learn that they were autonomous beings, they knew a priori to the fall. By logic, had they not (knowingly) possessed free will, they could not have eaten of the tree.
Genesis describes a trial of obedience which, had Adam chosen to follow, would have demonstrated his willing submission to the command of God. It was their act of disobedience (and not their moral awakening) which caused the fall. As Augustine eloquently puts it, "Pride was the beginning of all evil, because, had not man’s ambition carried him higher than he was permitted, he might have continued in his first estate."
Hope that sheds some light on your question.
Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Greatest I am
Why are you speculating about a fictional event? I'm really just wondering because...well...we have more than enough evidence to conclude that such an event never happened.
As for moral sense, Christianity is devoid of such a concept. It has an idea of obedience for fear of punishment from an all-powerful dictator, but that is not an idea of morality. It also begs the question of what is or is not good.
Originally posted by followtheevidence
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
As for moral sense, Christianity is devoid of such a concept. It has an idea of obedience for fear of punishment from an all-powerful dictator, but that is not an idea of morality.
May I ask you your basis for naturalistic morality? I've tried to understand the basic platform but it honestly escapes me, probably because I haven't really heard it adequately presented. I am genuinely interested in hearing what you have to say; this isn't some sort of evasive attempt to goad you into an unfriendly interchange. I am, as they say, all ears.
I also hasten to add that "it has an idea of obedience for fear of punishement..." You failed to include love in your reduction of the matter. As a christian theist, I am joyfully obedient to our Creator because I love our Creator. Freedom isn't just about freedom TO..its also a matter of freedom FROM. Selah.
edit on 25-5-2011 by followtheevidence because: word change