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Does our consciousness create the world around us?

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posted on May, 24 2011 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by sinohptik

Originally posted by grey580
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 

I disagree. Your reality is dictated by your mind.
If in your reality you want something bad enough. You will make it happen.
Or if in your reality your fear holds you back. It will never happen.

I understand your point that it's an untestable theory. But for me it's like the question if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound?

Sure it does.


It sure is untestable, thats why i find it a good topic for perspectives to explore it together, whether or not they agree.

i am not so sure even our personal reality is solely dictated by the "mind," but first, what do you personally define the "mind" as? i feel the mind is a result of our brain, and as such, resides alongside other systems which give their own.. "voices" to the overall perspective. However, these parts must be allowed to "be" and not be approached and contained within another system (such as our thought processes).

However, by overall concept you are presenting, i do agree. We most certainly decide how we are going to see the world and the different events that occur. To the extent that i feel that is the source of free will. The malleability and growth potential of our overall perspective.. must be experienced to be believed. We also can move our physical body and effect (by our context of physics) other material items around us, but obviously only to an extent. However, i feel it is a distinct possibility that due to the dualistic nature of our universe, that action based only from a dualistic source is "balanced" out, so "growth" is difficult. i see that this same experiential concept is applicable to systems interacting on other scales too, such as social interactions. A and B do not need to agree, but through openly exploring what "is" by relating our own limited experience, i thin we can truly start making movement, and consequently, begin "growing."
edit on 24-5-2011 by sinohptik because: clarifyin!


I define "mind" as "paying attention" as in "Mind your manners, boy!" That means to make something a focus. The mind is the focus. When something because the focus, you animate a scenario. You focus on something, animate or inanimate of itself, and make a living situation of it. The rock is not animate, but you mind the rock, therefore, your attention to the rock itself is animation. Animation, from the latin, "Anima" meaning, "Spirit" or "Mind" brings some interesting concepts to the table. If spirit and mind were interchangeable in the eyes of those who spoke latin, then is it possible that the spirit is the description of the imagination, the life behind the scenes? Wouldn't that be the mind? Whatever is in one's heart at a given time can be referred to as the spirit, and whatever becomes of the spirit manifests in the brain in the form of an image, the mind?

So, we cannot share truly what is in our hearts and minds with eachother except through a limited communication, another conduit. When the energy passes through so many different media, then the message gets messed up a little... unless we learn to redecipher the information.

But, further on point, this is proof that the mind does not, without the physical body, make a change in the physical world!

As for the minding of God and His power and His ability to make change, that is beside the point. I am referring to a theory that some people might refer to as science and I think that because it is untestable and I believe I have given enough opinion to help people to understand... that by ourselves, and by any materials' self, the world is only changed through physical events. Barring any divine intervention.

Now... what would be really cool is if I could find a way to harness the electrical energy inside of me and learn to manifest it in a way in which I could microwave my pasta by just focusing on it.




posted on May, 24 2011 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by sinohptik
Well, i think that if we were truly consciously creating the material universe, your own desires might be "over ruled" by the general consensus, which would inevitably be based solely upon well known and established systems of "change."


lol, so now it boils down to a numbers game?
what the majority of us want ???

well whomever is taking that poll
is fudging the votes again
hahahaha

recent polls show Obama approval rating
below 50%

and no "POOF" disappearing act occurred.


so me don't think majority consensus has
anything to do with it.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


There are two ways to explain this.

1 As soon as your consciousness realizes that life is projection you will get it. Let me explain this; If you are lucky to find a really good movie and you are watching it and your "in" the movie, you only apply to that world, there are only basic distractions possible during that period like food, drink, sex and danger
Your whole In-the-movie-world can also be disrupted by something in between you and the projection or you and something noisy during your audio experience. But beside that before your consciousness decides to go "in" the movie, it already decided thee movie would end. So if your consciousness believes in an afterlife there is no reason not to die someday. Even if you don't believe in something now, your consciousness could still have decided before you entered this life how the plot of this projection would be. Lets have some fun this time, I'll buy tickets for the atheist plot. LOL

2 The alarm clock is just a sadomasochistic expression of self torturing with a slight obedient factor towards your wife. You should see a professional.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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Originally posted by Diyainoue
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


There are two ways to explain this.

1 As soon as your consciousness realizes that life is projection you will get it. Let me explain this; If you are lucky to find a really good movie and you are watching it and your "in" the movie, you only apply to that world, there are only basic distractions possible during that period like food, drink, sex and danger
Your whole In-the-movie-world can also be disrupted by something in between you and the projection or you and something noisy during your audio experience. But beside that before your consciousness decides to go "in" the movie, it already decided thee movie would end. So if your consciousness believes in an afterlife there is no reason not to die someday. Even if you don't believe in something now, your consciousness could still have decided before you entered this life how the plot of this projection would be. Lets have some fun this time, I'll buy tickets for the atheist plot. LOL

2 The alarm clock is just a sadomasochistic expression of self torturing with a slight obedient factor towards your wife. You should see a professional.


LOL!!!!

It was a metaphor friend, in the event you are not joking!

So, I see what you mean... but I think that the theory has no basis. And I think that the theory is completely untestable. So, further proof, in my opinion, that it simply isn't scientifically true.

Basically, you're referring to my individual consciousness as an entity which uses my body as the conduit through which I might interact with the movie of life. This would give credence to the fact that these consciousness' should be floating about or being wherever they are being but still existing once the physical form dies. This is absurd because we know that no consciousness survives past the death of its physical body (according to natural laws). I do not subscribe to the theory about ghosts.. and I can disprove anyone who claims that a loved one or some spirit of a formerly alive human being is floating around. It's easy because the consciousness does not have carnal desires, the body does. The consciousness spends all day using the conscience to keep us from doing those stupid things! The consciousness knows that everything is the way it is and that we are not in control, truly. It is the physical body that gives the consciousness power to change the physical world and attempt to manifest what the physical body begs of the consciousness! In essence, my consciousness is a servant to my body and it is up to my consciousness to make every attempt at telling my body, "Bad boy, this is the reality, chill out, neither of us can really change the big picture, so do your best to help everyone else see this and we'll all be more comfortable until whatever is supposed to happen happens."

Something like that. I really should work and not describing the intricacies of life in Sawyerisms.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:21 PM
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You should watch a documentary called "The Primacy of Consciousness"

Consciousness is reality.
Reality is consciousness.

Matter is a product of consciousness.

However, your own consciousness is more complex than you can imagine...

...and the alarm clock is part of that consciousness.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:30 PM
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Just as a quick note, that was a reply to grey580. Just want to make sure grey knows that too, as how things are quoted can be a little misleading at first glance!


Originally posted by TarzanBeta

I define "mind" as "paying attention" as in "Mind your manners, boy!" That means to make something a focus. The mind is the focus. When something because the focus, you animate a scenario. You focus on something, animate or inanimate of itself, and make a living situation of it.


i define the mind (and actually some people refer to it as the soul as well as spirit (as you say), which is important to note for communication purposes) as the collective result of the brain. So, in this context everything from emotions, to thoughts, to dreams, to plans are all part of the system of the mind. It is important to note though, that i feel the mind is exclusively contained as a resultant system of the brain, but "we" are not. How "far" that goes will vary for each individual as they choose, but even at the physical level, we are more than just our brain and its results. Other systems exist alongside it. Most use the brain and thoughts to approach something like our lungs breathing though, instead of actually breathing with their lungs. The brain still plays a part in both, but experientially, and perceptually, they are significantly different experiences. i feel i actually see this type of thought-only based approach present in many contexts other than just this. i do see that the mind works by focus as well, as by its very nature, it chooses what "direction" to go.


But, further on point, this is proof that the mind does not, without the physical body, make a change in the physical world!


Agreed, the mind is only one system amongst others that make up what we know as our "body." The mind is a good tool for things like coming up with ideas, planning, etc. However, to actually move ones arm, we need to move our arm (and not just think about it).


Now... what would be really cool is if I could find a way to harness the electrical energy inside of me and learn to manifest it in a way in which I could microwave my pasta by just focusing on it.


i thought we already did exactly that by thinking about wanting pasta warmed up, then moving using electrical/chemical pulses which manifest by your finger pressing the button on the microwave (for the lucky), or our hands being used to start some sort of fire/heat source. It still plays out almost exactly how you say!
And, really, it is pretty amazing on all the simultaneously occurring scales!



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


Since we have the example of a movie I will further use that. I don't think the characters in a movie are aware of the audience watching them, so there is no reason why we should be able to be aware of consciousness after life, after all, this whole existence is the movie. Scientific facts of a plot stay in the plot right? All the proving for now is just in the movie and has no scientific basis outside the plot.
But you are right, this theory cannot be proven, definitely not if it false and certainly not if it is true after all we can only conclude that if we were able to get out.

There is nothing that can proof or disprove we are all one schizophrenic consciousness with all the different characters at the same time in the same plot.

Your consciousness is your servant to your body as you are servant to your connection to this board. you need to have everything tweaked just right - not to less or to much power/all the right in- and output/right accomodation - just like your body.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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reply to post by boondock-saint
 


Did you actually read my post?

The last line should have made it pretty clear... And like i said, even if people are consciously trying to create change, then most will be looking to do it through practiced, established systems instead of some "mind materialization," because that is how the overall system is generally perceived to "work" by the majority of people. Like i said, that will either be done through elections or impeachment because that is the world that is here, which is the same one that would be "consciously created" in the overall context. It wont just "change" instantaneously with nothing to change it to, because those are the "rules" of the world we have consciously created, in this context. So, it is talking about consciously creating this world, the one we live in. So, we have to use this world as the context for what was "created."

It seems you have some political axe to grind though? i dont have much to say on that, as i have zero faith in our political system, as it stands. But, i dont think anything will change until individuals start to truly take personal responsibility for their own actions on large scales. If that doesnt happen, it will just be SSDD, no matter who is "in office." Maybe im just jaded, but im much more hopeful of a change from the "people" up than i am for one enacted by government!



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by TarzanBeta
This is absurd because we know that no consciousness survives past the death of its physical body (according to natural laws). I do not subscribe to the theory about ghosts..


Actually we don't know if consciousness survives past the death of its physical body because it's untestable. There are things that science can't explain at it's present stage. Still doesn't mean it couldn't be true. Just means it isn't proven.
edit on 24-5-2011 by daskakik because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 05:11 PM
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I think it depends on whether or not you consider "creation" and "byproduct" to be synonymous. Everything is a byproduct. You poop. That doesn't mean you like poop nor wanted to create it. You exhale carbon but you don't really want to. So giving anecdotal evidence that states things do not turn out the way you like as an argument against humans producing byproducts is sort of silly.

I think of much better reasons to not believe we create our own realities but they don't involve alarm clocks. (S & F, by the way; interesting notion, to say the least:cool



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Cuervo
I think it depends on whether or not you consider "creation" and "byproduct" to be synonymous. Everything is a byproduct. You poop. That doesn't mean you like poop nor wanted to create it. You exhale carbon but you don't really want to. So giving anecdotal evidence that states things do not turn out the way you like as an argument against humans producing byproducts is sort of silly.

I think of much better reasons to not believe we create our own realities but they don't involve alarm clocks. (S & F, by the way; interesting notion, to say the least:cool


I am having a hard time figuring out which part you derived your opinion... I don't think I have a problem with pooping or exhaling carbon... and you're right, I certainly don't consciously think to myself , "Boy, I should try exhaling oxygen instead!" because, well, I wouldn't last too long, unless, of course I convinced my entire anatomy to...well I could keep going but it's pointless ain't it?

And I used the alarm clock ordeal as an example because I woke up and I resorted to the first thing I thought.


Thank you kindly.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:25 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus
You should watch a documentary called "The Primacy of Consciousness"

Consciousness is reality.
Reality is consciousness.

Matter is a product of consciousness.

However, your own consciousness is more complex than you can imagine...

...and the alarm clock is part of that consciousness.


I can only agree to the extent that if my brain was failing and unable to consciously perceive the alarm clock due to some burnt neurons, then yeah, the alarm clock would cease to exist to me - but that is a malfunction of my system.

But the system outside is already the truth. My brain, when naturally healthy (or atleast seemingly so when everyone else around can agree on simple facts like "We are walking on a hard wood floor" and "Your grandma is old!") Well... the truth maybe not... but the reality anyhow.

And when I die, that will be everyone else's reality to witness, because I won't witness my burial. Not in this conscious form, of course. I had better not. I would be digging my butt out!



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:32 PM
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reply to post by sinohptik
 


I'm down with your definition of the mind. And I completely understand.

Sometimes I feel like the brain has a magnetic energy field of a sort that reaches out beyond my skull and actually is able to process tiny amounts of information about energy sources, fields, etc. Does the brain naturally know how to decipher floating information...? I don't know, I've tried many times and I think sometimes I just get lucky and the rest of the time I'm like, "dude, well atleast you tried."

But, yes, exactly. I still have to pop the door open, put the pasta in, close the door, push a few buttons, let the magic box do its cooking, twiddle my thumbs (because I think that hurries the process) and then of course I still have to physically put the food in my mouth, and chew it... sometimes I even focus on my digestion to see if I can help!

No, really. But does it work? I don't know. But its my digestive tract. Maybe sometimes its best to not even be in control of one's self.


Which further abounds on my point that the theory that our consciousness, collective or not, does nothing to the world around us without first going through some physical checks and balances.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by Diyainoue
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


Since we have the example of a movie I will further use that. I don't think the characters in a movie are aware of the audience watching them, so there is no reason why we should be able to be aware of consciousness after life, after all, this whole existence is the movie. Scientific facts of a plot stay in the plot right? All the proving for now is just in the movie and has no scientific basis outside the plot.
But you are right, this theory cannot be proven, definitely not if it false and certainly not if it is true after all we can only conclude that if we were able to get out.

There is nothing that can proof or disprove we are all one schizophrenic consciousness with all the different characters at the same time in the same plot.

Your consciousness is your servant to your body as you are servant to your connection to this board. you need to have everything tweaked just right - not to less or to much power/all the right in- and output/right accomodation - just like your body.


Okay, I dig the movie theory. That makes sense... to an extent. But then again, we haven't made any real contact with aliens (that I know of) and yet we uphold these random Star Trek policies about not interfering and then BAM it hits you... the reason why this theory is in the movie/show is because the theory was created in real life and became a part of the show.

So, therefore, everything that is happening in this reality must be an idea in the external reality - and further more, with your current analogy, that means more is possible in this dimension than in the external dimension because, in the movies, they ALWAYS make it so that everything is just right for this scenario and that scenario that we all know ... would most likely never play out in real life.

So, your theory, in my humble opinion, puts the external world into a smaller box than the reality in which we are. Which doesn't make much sense to me - that we die and our consciousness somehow transfers outside of a physical barrier and progresses into an open environment with less possibility... which could only be possible if the external universe had limited possibilities! Because there are an infinite number of possibilities which can be imagined in this existence.

I think I have, humbly, put that theory to rest.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


You start off with a faulty premise and then try to knock down the strawman you set up. You said:


I've seen many threads attempting to claim that our consciousness creates the world around us... like, magically.


Who said the Consciousness creates reality magically?

This first line of your post ruins any credible argument throughout the rest of the post. You have to first show where someone said consciousness creates the universe magically.

Magic has nothing to do with it. The Universal Mind Creates Reality through Intelligence and Reason. It doesn't need magic. This Consciousness is more intelligent than a trillion Einsteins and creates the universe the same way we create a computer or a TV. This is because we're this Universal Mind having a "Me" experience because of decoherence. This is why we can understand the physics of the universe because we're the same Mind that created the physics that governs the universe.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:50 PM
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Regarding your clock radio example, for a married man the wife's consciousness will ALWAYS override yours.
As the aforementioned, other points of consciousness are also creating, which may interact with your intentions and effect the outcome. If you think about it, there has to be a default reality. Think of how difficult it would be to create everything that we see and experience? Right now I am looking at a wooden ladder back rocking chair. I would have to create the design of the chair. I would have to create the wood. I would have to create the tree the wood came from and on and on. I hope this helps. Namaste



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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Your consciousness cannot change the essential fabric of the universe, as it is a product of the universe and is inextricably linked to it. The only way that your consciousness can create reality is when you are in your own domain - such a place exists in your mind, where you are able to dream, imagine, and be anything that you want to be.

However, when you are in this universe, and you can overlay your imagination with what you see, you can change how you see things, and if you can hallucinate strongly enough, you can make yourself hear a different song than Lady GaGa or prevent yourself from hearing the alarm clock - however, it would still be based on a tangible universe to provide the framework for existence and experience.
edit on 24-5-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


You start off with a faulty premise and then try to knock down the strawman you set up. You said:


I've seen many threads attempting to claim that our consciousness creates the world around us... like, magically.


Who said the Consciousness creates reality magically?

This first line of your post ruins any credible argument throughout the rest of the post. You have to first show where someone said consciousness creates the universe magically.

Magic has nothing to do with it. The Universal Mind Creates Reality through Intelligence and Reason. It doesn't need magic. This Consciousness is more intelligent than a trillion Einsteins and creates the universe the same way we create a computer or a TV. This is because we're this Universal Mind having a "Me" experience because of decoherence. This is why we can understand the physics of the universe because we're the same Mind that created the physics that governs the universe.


I argue that we still don't understand the physics of the universe.

Also, there are many who claim to be able to make this or that happen just by willing it. By using our collective minds we can will things to be the way we want them to be... Don't be defensive about something that you never said? And many use the terms interchangeably: consciousness, mind, spirit, etc.

We are not the universal mind. And again, as I said, we don't actually understand the physics of the universe. Far from it - in fact!

Notice how the wording of our physics involves more "theories" than facts? I understand a theory is something that is testable and produced somewhat the results sought, generally, but theory and theology have the same root word... mind you.

Facts, however, are laws. And there are a few laws of physics and we know what those are. And we still aren't 100% sure these laws are correct these days! But so far, they have proven fact.

But to say we are the universal mind having a "me" experience which is on account of decoherence - this scientifically has no testable model. So what purpose does this theory serve?

And once again, the universal mind, having all its power and intelligence, should require that it discover itself through physical entities? I think not. If in fact this universal mind exists in the way you say, then I believe that it does not require such a thing but created such a thing for fun... in which case it would be pointless to remember or become knowledgeable about such a thing if only to just make a game out of life.

Which we understand because of our suffering that life is not a game, but it is serious.

And you couldn't possibly fully subscribe to your theory if you have any frustration on account of my opinion.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by SystemResistor
Your consciousness cannot change the essential fabric of the universe, as it is a product of the universe and is inextricably linked to it. The only way that your consciousness can create reality is when you are in your own domain - such a place exists in your mind, where you are able to dream, imagine, and be anything that you want to be.

However, when you are in this universe, and you can overlay your imagination with what you see, you can change how you see things, and if you can hallucinate strongly enough, you can make yourself hear a different song than Lady GaGa or prevent yourself from hearing the alarm clock - however, it would still be based on a tangible universe to provide the framework for existence and experience.
edit on 24-5-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)


Exactly.

The only way to consciously change reality (without physical interaction) is to change the way your consciousness perceives reality...

But everyone around will you definitely know you are weird.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 08:00 PM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


Additionally, if it were possible to remotley alter the perception of surrounding individuals, we could theoretically exist within a consensus "dream world" or collective hallucination. There could be millions of people walking around that see a completley different world than we do, and we might be made to believe that they are interacting in the "regular world" like us...
edit on 24-5-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)



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