Today we start our revolution! Wish us good luck...

Originally posted by MidnightTide

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by MidnightTide People MUST be held accountable for their actions, and that means some people are going to live a hard life.

What are you on about?

Looking at your posts, you seem to think that socialism actually can work. Just throwing out my two cents on the matter.

Socialism = free lunch.

(or perhaps I took things out of context and that part of my post is just a herp derp)

edit on 25-5-2011 by MidnightTide because: (no reason given)

Agreed all things that resemble socialism, claim to be it, or wanted to be it have gone into decline or worse,
and that goes for sweden and their racial riots of late.

I realize I live in a world of winners and losers. It's a world where a few milk the many. The many like it that way becasue they're told to like it, and the people on the bottom want their turn at top. The few thus have an unpaid army of the many to defend them.

I simply believe life should be about living. Work should be coordinated to maximize leisure. We're all going to die someday. As unfair as it may seem, It will be like we were never born. We will remember nothing in death. It's a waste of our limited time to live any other way than cooperatively.

reply to post by pitchdragon


Please list the top 20 reforms you wish to accomplish in your revolution.

Thank you in advance for clear and concise answers.

May the force be with you. If this movement reaches my country, i promise to bee on the streets in the same spirit!

We are Legion.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by NoHierarchy

 

You seem to believe that government is the only problem and that our markets represent freedom. What many right-wing Libertarians such as yourself fail to realize is that, regardless of the government, the economic system is inherently oppressive/tyrannical in and of itself. The markets, along with governments, represent a conjoined monster that tyrannizes both the masses of humanity and the ecosystems of the planet. Without government you still will not be free, please consider economic tyrannies more deeply:

The reason the markets are not free IS PRECISELY BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. What you left wing Marxists fail to realize Is you cannot have a government controlled free market they are a contradiction in terms. The monstrosity you describe would not exist in a free market because people would be free to vote with thier wallets and feet and take thier business else where and businesses that did not provide a good product or service would go out of business without government protection or bailouts etc. Market regulation in the name of consumer protection is nothing more then protectionism for the politically connected big business.

You really need to learn more about your free markets. THEY NEVER EXISTED.

If you want the current monetary system, economic landscape, and economic entities to exist/remain while the government is removed from the picture you will ONLY see MORE tyranny, not less. I am NOT a Marxist, so stop using such propaganda on me. I am an Anarchist... in the vast majority of Anarchist thought, it is common sense that markets can be and ARE oppressive in Capitalist societies. You CANNOT HAVE hierarchy, coercion, wealth gaps, stratification, and wage slavery and call yourself a free society. Your worship of the market is a juvenile version of being anti-government. If you continue your education of radical alternatives, you'll find that "free markets" are an illusion... and that removing government but maintaining other powerful systems/entities of economic nature is an insane idea akin to socio-economic suicide. The LEAST a government can do is regulate OTHER powerful/rich entities on the peoples' behalf.

reply to post by NoHierarchy



NoHierarchy
You really need to learn more about your free markets. THEY NEVER EXISTED.

hawkiye
Of course they existed you need to study some history instead of repeating nonsense. They existed in 19th century America for most of that century except in war periods up till 1913. They also existed in Celtic Ireland for a thousand years! www.mises.org...

NoHierarchy
If you want the current monetary system, economic landscape, and economic entities to exist/remain while the government is removed from the picture you will ONLY see MORE tyranny, not less.

hawkiye
Don't be stupid the current monetary system is enforced by the government and the only reason it exists. And of course I never said I want the current system. It is the root cause of all our woes. If the government is removed the monetary system will go with it.

NoHierarchy
I am NOT a Marxist, so stop using such propaganda on me.

hawkiye
Then you should stop spouting marxist propoganda

NoHierarchy
I am an Anarchist... in the vast majority of Anarchist thought, it is common sense that markets can be and ARE oppressive in Capitalist societies.

hawkiye
You do not know the meaning of the word Anarchist much less capitalism. No self respecting anarchist would advocate any government control or intervention as you have. Explain to us how freedom is oppressive; as in a free market where one is free to buy or not buy among many choices and no business has any government protectionism stifling its competitors from providing alternative choices and keeping each other honest by so doing? Your the one who has fallen for propaganda calling government fascism capitalism when it is precisely government intervention that allows monopolies and oppression in the markets.

NoHierarchy
You CANNOT HAVE hierarchy, coercion, wealth gaps, stratification, and wage slavery and call yourself a free society.

hawkiye
I have said no such thing nor advocated any such thing, argue with what I said not with what I did not say. Everything you describe is BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION/REGULATION

NoHierarchy
Your worship of the market is a juvenile version of being anti-government. If you continue your education of radical alternatives, you'll find that "free markets" are an illusion... and that removing government but maintaining other powerful systems/entities of economic nature is an insane idea akin to socio-economic suicide. The LEAST a government can do is regulate OTHER powerful/rich entities on the peoples' behalf.

hawkiye
Your not making any sense here. First I do not worship anything I just value freedom, free choice, free markets etc.. Second you want no hierarchy or coercion then turn around and say you want government to regulate things. How can you have government regulation without hierarchy and coercion? You can't it is impossible Government is the epitome of hierarchy and coercion is what government does period. What you don't seem to understand is those powerful entities you despise got their power through government coercion and intervention favoring them. That is all regulation is; a means to stifle fair and free market competition for the politically connected . Free markets are proven in history they regulate themselves, it is the ultimate free democracy where people vote with thier wallets and feet. If a business does not provide a good product or service customers go elsewhere and they go out of business as they have no government protection, no "to bigs to fail", and no coerced monopoly by government hierarchy and some other business will fill the need as it always does in a true free market.. In short provide a good honest service or product or fail, it is really quite simple and has worked wonderfully when freedom prevails.

Your no anarchist that for sure! Pseudo anarchist crack me up anarchy is the absence of government yet you fear without government intervention/regulation the big powerful government created entities will run you over. Yet you cant see the contradiction. It is government that enables them to have such power. Freedom is always the higher way always has been but the sheep prefer to be led by the nose and play follow the leader off the cliff!

reply to post by pitchdragon


Cher pitchdragon,
Je comprends tout à fait comme c’est difficile de s’exprimer pleinement dans un langue qui n’est pas ta langue maternelle, et je n’ai aucun objection si tu le fait en français. Pour mon part, je vais le faire en anglais, parce que c’est ma langue maternelle d’abord, et pour les autres ici qui suivent cette discussion. Evidément tu te débrouille assez bien pour me comprendre et j’espère que ça te gêne pas !

I am not sure what exactly you see my obsession as, but I will explain what my interest in this discussion is.

I am a mother of three young people (16, 19, 23). I love the energy young people have to bring to the society and community, I love the fresh energy, new ideas, and movement they have to share ! It excites me. That fire is also something that sometimes is difficult for them to canalize constructively and gets wasted- which is too bad.

I’m for change, I’m for each generation pushing the elders to move beyond their stagnation and habits. I meet young people at the Chamber of commerce who are setting out on new and innovative businesses- often with ecology in mind, and sincere drive to make their world better, and all I can think is- if I won the lotto tomorrow, I would come and invest in these kids !! I hate to see their creations fail simply because they were missing some information and experience on very pragmatic matters.

If we were to have a revolution, it would best come about peacefully if the majority chooses it- I think you know that- you need to convince the middle class. Imagine you have them in front of you, many aren’t crazy about their jobs (as the french work to live, not live to work, so don’t usually choose a job that is their passion or hobby, they choose what they were capable of and don’t necessarily enjoy it). So they could be open to change.

But they are not starving either, they have a roof over their heads, food on the table, time for their favorite sport, they are not desperate and their intellect is full active mode. They are open to the idea ……IF they hear what exactly the change has in mind ! They will go for having a better life, but not one that will be less than what they have now. They will be willing to follow a vision, leaders with a goal, but not random frenzy.

You have been asked « What do you propose in the place of this government ? » by me and others, repeatedly. You have not answered. It is great to know what you are against, but you need to know what you are FOR if you want to rally adults.

If you want to do a revolution get a game plan together, gain the confidence of the masses, and go for it ! But do some research, find your focus first.

Otherwise, you’ll end up with a withering fail, or violence, or even if victory could happen, you’ll get all the people looking at you and saying, « Now what ? » while you and your buddies shrug and look at each other « Chais pas…. » and the people roar with fear and anger and begin fighting each other.

Don’t be a rebel without a cause, it is a waste of energy ! Find your cause, and pull it all together, and make it REAL !
That’s my position here, not really an obsession, but I will admit to passion.

reply to post by pitchdragon


Looks like a Sienfield revolution, a lot of talk about nothing.

No aim, no goal, no point, no principles. Just venting about 'social reforms' and 'xenophobes' and fingers pointing at the unemployed immigrants.

To sum it up, the OP is an unemployed non-citizen angry that monthly handouts from the country he's visiting are running dry. The employed citizens of the country he is visiting have realized people like the OP are a burden they can no longer bear. The OP feels the pressure of having to work for his money and having to return home, so he organizes a protest hoping to attract gullible people who don't realize what the situation is.

I believe that about sums it up.

Originally posted by civilchallenger
reply to post by pitchdragon

 

Please list the top 20 reforms you wish to accomplish in your revolution.

Thank you in advance for clear and concise answers.

1 end of monetary system
2 protectionism (inland resource sharing)
3Free Energy
4Change schooling ( internet speed schooling effecitve)
5Bio food
6Free open internet
7No taxation
8Freedom of travel
9 Own our own individual lives.
10Free travel trains, bus etc.
11Comunity based society. ( Primair food production, and maintaining energy supply the rest expand their creativity for the benefit of us all)
11No boundries
12 Ban expressing religion ( thats personal. I extrapolate that we keep divided if we choose to live in different regions)
13 Free healthcare.
14 Grow your own food, and water wells
15 Eliminate European influence, seek supporters of new configuration with other countries. Build primary principals fast for stable community between countries that follow

reply to post by TribeOfManyColours


Sounds like an unreal left-anarchist utopia.

No monetary system, no market, no contribution-consumption tracking system. How exactly would you achieve incentive to work (required for "free" trains, buses, "free" medical care) without some contribution-consumption tracking system (like monetary system)? Do you think people (especially southern ones ) will just drive buses and perform 10 hour operations for pleasure of it, if they dont get something more in return than if they stayed home and enjoyed some leisure activity?

There is a nice analogy illustrating why socialism along with Venus and similar projects are doomed to failure:

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism."

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided that since they could not make an A, they studied less. The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater their reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

Remember, there is nothing free, someone always has to work or produce it.

Also, free energy does not exist, and if you completely open borders, you will be overrun by hoards of poor and uneducated immigrants, each requiring resources to take care of (unless you want them to die in your streets) while probably not able to contribute anything useful in return for a very long time. You go it exactly backwards - economic isolationism but open immigration. It should be immigration isolationism but open trade, for society to prosper.

In short, enjoy your societal breakdown.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by TribeOfManyColours

 

Sounds like an unreal left-anarchist utopia.

No monetary system, no market, no contribution-consumption tracking system. How exactly would you achieve incentive to work (required for "free" trains, buses, "free" medical care) without some contribution-consumption tracking system (like monetary system)? Do you think people (especially southern ones

) will just drive buses and perform 10 hour operations for pleasure of it, if they dont get something more in return than if they stayed home and enjoyed some leisure activity?

There is a nice analogy illustrating why socialism along with Venus and similar projects are doomed to failure:

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism."

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided that since they could not make an A, they studied less. The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater their reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

Remember, there is nothing free, someone always has to work or produce it.

Also, free energy does not exist, and if you completely open borders, you will be overrun by hoards of poor and uneducated immigrants, each requiring resources to take care of (unless you want them to die in your streets) while probably not able to contribute anything useful in return for a very long time. You go it exactly backwards - economic isolationism but open immigration. It should be immigration isolationism but open trade, for society to prosper.

In short, enjoy your societal breakdown.

edit on 26/5/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

edit on 26/5/11 by Maslo because: (no reason given)

Well the only things that need keep running is. Energy and food supply.
Both we can sustain our selves in without help of other countries. (now we are alive)
The rest can expand who they are.

Scientist are born, sportsmans are born etc.

Say that 50 million Frenchman live in France, Only a small portion has to do community service.
Driving a bus, helping a farmer, helping in the energy sector. (just to keep it all running)
The rest can build their own energystations. Solar/Wind/Water/windmills etc.

And that small portion that has to to community service, works in shifts. So that you maybe have to work 2days a week, cause of turning shifts.

The kids can learn way better then on school on the internet. There are university lectures, untill simple math lessons. So its way more effective in my view


Money-religion-government are Unnatural things in this world, for the rest completely its a natural world.
In order to have balance, the way of the nature is the only 'way'

Originally posted by Maslo


There is a nice analogy illustrating why socialism along with Venus and similar projects are doomed to failure:

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said, "OK, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism."

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided that since they could not make an A, they studied less. The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F.

The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder people try to succeed the greater their reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

You made some very valid points, which I was itching to say myself before I saw you had.

There IS however one thing I'd like to say about this example you used.
This experiment was done in the USA, so it's results are influenced by that.
I have observed that how the people act and react in such a system depends largely upon the collective culture- the morals and values they share. I have not lived in such an economic system myself and have no first hand experience.

However, in France, the medical care being Socialized does NOT end up with such problems. I think it is because whether one is sick or not is not considered by the collective as something that is a product of individual choices.
The people don't mind that they may be paying for someone else to recieve care, because they feel it could happen to them at any time too, and they want that same support.

Of course, that socialized medical system could not work in the US because their culture has values and ideas that sickness or disease are a direct result of personal choices, not randomness.

Some parts of the economic system here, though capitalistic, still seem to carry socialistic tendancies in the cultural pressures. Like the idea that in a business, cooperation in a group effort is most important, and that means everyone getting the same pay to avoid jealousies (not a law, but a culturally pressed value).
This also means that each feels a duty to adjust to the agreed upon pace and output. (usually not too much as the french abhor extremes in any area). They are not working for their individual benefit but see work as a duty to their community and the right to partake in it's protection and support.

Peer pressure a bad thing in US values, it is a good thing in theirs! We Americans are taught as kids not to follow the crowd, they'll lead you wrong.
The french say, "one mustn't listen to oneself"- for your own egotistical desires shall lead you wrong. Your peers will push you and help you, everyone helps each other to stay disciplined and focused that way. Look to your equal at your side for guidance and give it also to them.

In this culture, the experiment would have worked differently, because the kids who didn't work at all and brought the average down to D would have been quickly influenced by the other kids displeasure and pressure to work harder, out of wanting to remain in the group and accepted! American kids, taught to reject their peers pressure and not worry about fitting in, would not have felt
influenced to conform (except personally attacked and ready to attack back).

Context matters in all choices!!! Take a peice of a clock and try to put it in a car motor, you'll see it doesn't work.
Put it in a clock, it works. Emergent systems usually fail theoretically when you break down their parts for analyzation.

reply to post by TribeOfManyColours


The food issue for the world has been solved.

With a land mass the size of West Virginia you could feed the entire planet
with a hybrid Aquaculture and Hydroponic system.

Of course you'd want to localize the production where the ppl are, shipping food
all over the world is wasteful.

1 million pounds of food on 3 acres over 365 days in the far north heated by compost:



The energy issue is still in the works, but there is hope...

Cold Fusion experimentally confirmed

Good Luck to all the good ppl !!!

it will be difficult as you understand English is not my language, and for being fully understand it is necessary also know well express his thoughts ... but I will.

First you ask me what are we proposing, I have my own ideas but it does not reflect the thinking of other participants is a laboratory i give it and
eatch drop make an ocean.

1-it is necessary to go out of this relationship of bipartisanship right / left
they offer us their ideas and we vote for them, it is necessary get out of this cleavage.
I say the best thing to do is empower the citizen, to decide their future on the one hand if they make the wrong choice they will have full responsibility , politics are to serve the people and not the contrary, France has already made ​​a revolution that has cost the head of a king and we found this at the same stage, a true DEMOCRACY is above all an exchange between who drivers who are on board If we do not want to take a particular path, we should be listen and actualy this is not the case.

2 - Financial market regulation, we got to the point that humans put into the background and he is just a tool and the money has taken the lead on the pyramid that dominates the world. the free market shows its dysfunction, we must be able to redefine the roles of each, is it also our Responsability, we can not complain about this situation while we help make it even worse, the bank does not work for evolution, so Let's put the bank in their place and bring back the power in the right place.

3--Supporting the local economy is also our Responsability, if the factories are closed and relocated it's just because we want more product and less expensive, but we turn round, first we exploit the resources and energy on the other side of the planet, and it creates unemployment, so at this stage should really asked the question what we want ? this wild exange are not good for the planet and not good for you.

4- equitable distribution of budgets, it's strange but everything is in our hands, it was also up to us to put pressure on those who drivers, you can not complain that the lack of infrastructure at the same time leave that wars making larger Inequality, deaths, a movement of people to safer place, we can complain about our situation and at the same time want the oil for our car and profited Resource So find another alternative than war, find ways to operate our own clean energy and more responsabilty also our part as I was saying, let's balance the power, and the politics will then do their real work.

5-a new way of seeing the world, there should be a real solidarity between countries,
we are still at the same level or worse than before, I do not see the world country by country, but rather a system of connection, We concentrate all our energy in a single entity, but we each have our differences,cultural , religious, if we work wity with equality if nobody feels violated, all question of religion, superiority has no place, and forget this race to see who is the most powerful, we would fair trade and be productive for the entire planet.
Some of you talk about immigration, but if the northern countries do not spent their time to rot in the south, I said sincerely that it is fair?
1 - we pollute their habitat (oil, gas, minerals)
2 - you know it is a fool's game and the leader in the power of these countries are put there by those who have the money.
3 - we want more and more for less, we make people work like slaves for that, they as you dream of a better life, they are also human do you know that ?.
4 - it creates migratory movement
5 - it creates even more inequality in the host countries
where are the benefits from this situation ... we know... so why are we still there debating on my ideas ... So I'm out with the other to say that we no longer want and pointing the finger in immigration will not help this something globale.

6 - the environment is also our responsibility and to always take as greedy and do not see the damage it causes, I am not for this candid speech save the planet and blah blah, we must be realistic and find the right path to take, we should have a comprehensive reflection on this matter, meanwhile we are creating environmental summit,we let the elite find a solutions but it's these same elites who do pollute more, it gives me the impression that it is to have a clear conscience and nothing is done, then it's still ours and always take our Responsability
we have to changed the way we consume.
1 - less transport especially in conscerne food, buy local and seasonal.
2 - limit the use of the car or find a good alternative but again it must appeal to our Responsability can not complain about the situation and provoked.
3 - more clean energy
4-1 real awareness of the industry and not small words for a clear conscience
5-see what is right and good for us and not let the industries and politics decided for us (for instance nuclear)

for me these six points are important because it encompasses everything else education, health, culture.

I could deepen my reflection but also an exchange here is what seems to me responsible.

I am far from these ideas and arguments right / left for me because there is no board, just acts to have and yet none of them shows me how to lead to the next step of our evolution.

time of political ideals has exceeded my opinion, debate again and again an idea that will remain as simple ideas do not work so I prefer be outside and move than sitting behind a computer, criticize and talk about old ideals ideology.

can not complain about immigration and even let these wars and this exploitation it is necessary stop being hypocritical.

can not complain about unemployment and inequality and want everything for nothing it is necessary stop being hypocritical.

can not complain about pollution and continue to drive my 4x4 and frenetic consummation must stop being hypocritical

so please stop this blah blah about Responsability

i don"t want the destruction of a whole system is counterproductive, it is necessary to all do our part to work hand in hand divided will kill us all,and to face our own schizophrenia, so ...
what you offer ... only ideas that suits you or a true global concience for the good of the future of humanity
this what we are teatching to the future generation take whatever you want and blame the others...

thank you

It's normal that socialism in capitalism doesn't work because of the mentality and the whole capitalism that still is up there.

Think socialism is like a bird...but we built our world in water!
No wonder it doesn't work.

"See, SEE, the bird ideas are bad ideas because they don't work in our world!"

Your all just too blinded by the fake freedom of capitalism. Socialism doesn't mean everyone will stop trying harder and it doesn't mean everyone will have the same salary. A lot of you seem to be describing socialism a lot more like communism is.

You've been manipulated and educated in thinking nothing is better then capitalism and you are all up to expectations. The people living off you are very happy.

You might see socialism being all about people doing nothing is getting everything, but it doesn't have to be this way.
Right now, in capitalism, the ones getting everything have no limits and they didn't get it by just being lazy.
They got it by being has greedy, has selfish, has egoistical that they could be and more.

Other very important thing, let's say we had a ( un-optimal ) socialism system in the whole world...
Sure, some would be lazy and might be living on welfare. Let's say this is a really lazy world and 30% don't work...well at least they won't be getting 60% of the riches.

Right now, the 5% richest have 80% of the worlds resource : Money
And this money is NEVER going back in the system.
At least those lazy welfare socialism asses are putting the money back in the system because they must live everyday, they don't have access to save the riches and taking that money out of the system.

reply to post by Dbriefed


just bla bla bla , just criticism, you point the finger, you do not propose anything, you make me look like a lazy, it suits you, but people like you sooner or later they will have to face their own contradiction ... I let you talk, this is what you do the best.

i had study 6 years in communication i'v done so many internship...now i work Today as salesman in a store, and do others small job,why because i'm to hight graduate and they can not paye me, and when i say ok i do take the job they say it's impossible we can not pay you like that with so many years of study is totally hypocritical, so many years of study, money spent by my parents ... you come to tell me I'm just lazy ... you really will stop at any baseness..

I think User8911 was referring to Ex_MislTech and hawkiye's discussion when he used "lazy". he wasn't talking about you, well, that's how I read it.

Ex_MislTech and hawkiye
You guys both make a lot of sense about capitalism and socialism.
But yet again, if I may, duality has clouded your research.
We all play the same game. Politicians went to the same schools (social determinism helping they'll soon be inbred), they answer to the same people, we are ants, no matter the apparent system before your eyes.
I'm no expert, but when you read Smith, Rousseau, Locke, Marx, or Bakounine, you cannot possibly compare the utopian poetry that it is, to what Lenin, or Wilson and their buddies made of it.
Remember that most American presidents fought against bigger Capital.
"I sincerely believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies" T.Jefferson. (May I add the life-long fight of Andrew Jackson, or Lincoln's greenbacks)
The argument has always been to demonstrate the other's loopholes in wording.
Socialism (production tools and infrastructures being owned by its workers, supervised by the State, making the bureaucracy, literally Kafkaesque) tells us that, from social justice comes prosperity.
Capitalism (no interference from the State, Man is good, the market will be too) tells us that, from prosperity comes social justice.
Communism (permanent global revolution of socialists "superstates") was a wet dream of a conclusion - never existed either) Marx knew it, any sane people would too.

Again, I'm no expert, but you talk about Cuba mate, look at what they did since 1989. Organoponicos ? Free A++ appliances delivered to your door? How about the bolivarian republics mate? Works waaay better for the poor folks than the Kissinger years, can tell you that much. They're eating better foods than you do. No codex alimentarius, just urban organic food.
Read Lenin and dare still think that he was a Bolshevik revolutionary..He was a Fascist, he took over the people's revolution. Like so many did before and after. And now, we use these -ism terms, like they're anything else than words in books and failed low-scale trials.

So let's not try to resolve a century-old visionaries' rivalry, and help these uprisings.
It will be better than this old ideology based duality.
I'm not saying you guys should stop writing, I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure a 2.5 PFLOP/s computer can solve our problem better than any politician.
In the 70's, the average french representative was in his 30's. Today, the average is 55.
But how can you expect kids to stay in school when most of the time, 30% of your politicians are not even at work.

Seriously though, Socialism, Capitalism both make really great,challenging, epic reads.
But I've never lived in a world where I could witness any of it.
If the American Government stopped subsidizing, I'd know it. If the Capital was interested in the betterment of the Social, we'd live in a world where you'd never needed money in the first place.
If I had free health-care I'd know it too. If the Social could bare the assaults from the Capital, there'd be no Monsanto.
Can't you guys agree on Sustainability-ism? Or anarcho-permacultural syndicalism? I don't know. But these other -ism are from a different time. It's nano-tech time, LHC time.
Peace

Originally posted by pitchdragon
reply to post by Dbriefed

 

i had study 6 years in communication i'v done so many internship...now i work Today as salesman in a store, and do others small job,why because i'm to hight graduate and they can not paye me, and when i say ok i do take the job they say it's impossible we can not pay you like that with so many years of study

I haven't been able to read all the other response yet, I'm off to work, but I do want to say here, this IS a common problem in France. Claims that a person is overqualified for a job, and employers unwilling to hire someone with many diplomas. I've got a cousin here with the same problem- she cannot get even a job for minimum salary because she has too many diplomas (degrees). It is possible it is an excuse, because while she spent nine years in school, she never once had a job! So.... lack of experience may be more the problem than too much education.....I don't know for sure. But this is exactly what I mean when I say the mentalities would have to be changed- if the culture could instead accept that a kid come out with three degrees, and still work at a #ty job for minimal wage, at least these kids would be able to start their climb!
(but of course they too, would have to let go of the idea they should have a higher salary because of their degrees.....)

Revolution for the sake of revolution is bad.

What is your game plan? What is it you want to acheive? Complete overthrow of the existing government and system?

And if so, what policies would you enact? What type of government? This sounds an awful lot like a communist or socialist movement.

Not happy with the current upper class, the lower class takes over. They try and even the tables. The previous upper classes assets and business are seized and nationalized. Out of fear they might again come to power, the old ruling elite are executed. A new consitution is enacted, and victory for the masses declared. Only now, the lower class is now at the top. They swear they will be fair to all, and it may start out that way. But as they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The new ruling elite live it up, much like the people they overthrew.

Sorry. Until you lay out a plan for what you plan to do when your revolution succeeds, you do not have my support. I fear for the new world if this works.

Good luck