Raising gender-neutral or gender-specific kids.....Does it matter?

reply to post by Annee


Society evolves. But it should be the adults that will spearhead the evolution, getting the abuse and the status of a weirdo along with it. Using innocent children to push the ideology rejected by society is pathetic and abusive.

Originally posted by adigregorio

Originally posted by Annee
You want to stay stuck in your Black and White world - - that's your choice.

Lol, it is not my world it is the REAL world. Society (ours) does not look highly on boys that do not follow societies (ours) gender "rules".

Yeah - - I live in the REAL world. Going on 65 years now.

Raised two daughters as a single mom - - helped raise first grandchild (now 17) cuz his dad chose drugs over him. Now helping raise 3 year old grandson who's dad died of Leukemia before he was a month old.

Society is evolving. People like you apparently are not.

Some of you have some valid concerns about these parents. It is also up to them to help their children learn to negotiate themselves with society. They are clearly missing this piece of the whole puzzle, and this is hurting their children.

There is a way to allow your children to be who they are AND teach them how to negotiate their way in society.

These coping skills are vital to their survival, particularly if they are going to diverge from the pack-enforced social structure. You can't teach these skills while also pretending the pack doesn't matter. The pack can kill you. Some of the pack WANT to kill you. The pack matters. Learning how to be yourself and work them at the same time is absolutely necessary for those who challenge the norm.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by Annee

 

Society evolves. But it should be the adults that will spearhead the evolution, getting the abuse and the status of a weirdo along with it. Using innocent children to push the ideology rejected by society is pathetic and abusive.

Using innocent children?

Forcing your own outdated and antiquated social ideologies from your generation on to children of the future - - - is what is pathetic and abusive.

The state should swat team these parents and take the kids for their own good.

The state couldn't do a worse job.

reply to post by Annee

Forcing your own outdated and antiquated social ideologies from your generation on to children of the future - - - is what is pathetic and abusive.

Oh, please. Gender-neutral children are not accepted by society, and will probably not be accepted for a long time. It is not my ideology, I could not care less about such trivial things, I am very liberal in these things. It is the ideology of current human society, tough. My issue is with parents willingly putting their little children to positions that will result in abuse and ridiculing by society and their peers, just because of their ideology (they are not even genuinely transgender). It shows a profound disregard for the wellbeing of their child and a great level of immaturity. It is plain selfishness.

If this was more or less accepted by society, I would not have a problem with it, but it is not, not even adult transgender people are yet.

reply to post by Annee


And contrary to some religious concepts, or other more harmful cultural concepts, I dont see anything harmfull or immoral about basic cultural gender identity, so the whole point of this crazy and likely harmful experiment is pointless from the start. Big risk for almost no gain.

Teaching your children habits which would probably make their growing-up and life harder in a real imperfect and abusive society they are actually gonna live in (not progressive utopia) borders on child abuse. (or failing to teach them habits they would need, its the same).

Nah. There is a way in between.

If you're kid is going to do something harmless but which might make ADULTS target him....then also teach him how to defend himself.

That way when someone does say something and gets in the kids face and won't back off, he can kick their knee out.

Originally posted by Annee
Yeah - - I live in the REAL world. Going on 65 years now...

Appeal to Authority is another logical fallacy. Just because your experience is different, does not discount the FACT that society sees this as wrong.

It does not change the FACT that these parents are using thier child to "teach" others how to behave. If the child chooses this, that is fine, but parading around a baby and saying I won't tell you its gender is not the babies choice, is it?

They are using the baby to "teach" people a lesson. You can not force knowledge, which I notice you ignored from my last post.

Originally posted by Annee
Society is evolving. People like you apparently are not.

So society is evolving into folks that insult others, like you did to me? Count me out of that mess!

Originally posted by Annee
Society is evolving.

Human society has constantly been evolving since the dawn of mankind. Evolution is neutral, and any social change that has previously occurred and that will occur in the future is neither good, bad or, most importantly, permanent.

If society gradually evolves to be more tolerant and accepting of others who are different, then that would just be the latest temporary transition that would evolve gradually into something else ( perhaps into a society that encourages intolerance and prejudice ).

The thing with social evolution is that physical human evolution is so microscopic as to be practically irrelevant over anything other than a huge span of time. The differences between humans nowadays and those thousands of years ago are probably extremely negligible.

Humans still have the same glaring shortcomings as they have had throughout their written history, which makes any realistic hope for a Utopian ideal to be nothing short of delusional.

We are an irrational, emotional species who can often - but not always - temper these tendencies by using logic and reason. You can form a theoretical blueprint for an immaculate society, but this will always be doomed to failure due to the fact that the subjects of that society are imperfect and are not inclined to conform to these unnaturally restrictive ideals.

I think that kid is going to grow up to be one weird little S.o.B. And not only that, but she's WHAT-schooling them?? This lady sounds like she listens to too much Lady Gaga and is using her innocent child to make a social statement. I agree with the poster who said we are watching a serial killer being formed...this is going to mess with this kid. If it's a boy, and he wants to be "boyish", then who's to say the parents won't discourage it JUST to continue the "gender secret", so then you have a case of the boy who was told to wear dresses. Vice versa if it's a girl. A child is going to be attracted to things that is put in front of it and if the "statement" they're trying to make is that "gender doesn't matter" I can pretty much guess they're going to do as much leaning toward opposite sex-type things like toys and clothes just for a stupid statement. Let the kid be who he/she wants to, indeed.....

reply to post by Vanna


I gotta tell ya, that gender related advice from someone with an avatar of human-genderizing anthropromorphism is mind boggling.

Originally posted by Aeons
Some of you have some valid concerns about these parents. It is also up to them to help their children learn to negotiate themselves with society. They are clearly missing this piece of the whole puzzle, and this is hurting their children.

I don't know that they are.

Interpreting someone else's intent from a printed article and what they may actually do - - - is not really a valid form of judgement - - IMO.

I do think they have a valid concept - - - but - you know with children - - - you have to adapt to their individual needs.

The only problem I see is if they try to force non-gender.

This really isn't anything new - - as I can attest from being a "child of the 60s". Kids grew up just fine to be who they are. But it did start the ball rolling on "Free to be who you are" - - - rather then forced into defined roles.

I see gender as an intrinsic part of your identity. If a child wants to play with any kind of toy, wear any specific colour clothes, etc, let them, it's part of learning about self and environment. Well in my opinion anyway.

I know there have been many psychology studies on the nature/nurture debate regarding gender. Money and Ehrhardt (1972) said that 'anatomy is destiny', meaning that gender will result in how the baby is socialised. Isn't what you are, an important part in discovering who you are?

I'm abit confused by how the parents of the kid are going to handle this, especially when their kid gets to school. Heavily socialised and influenced by other children. Is gender going to become a big issue for the kid? I think it might.

Please don't sissyfy any more males here in the USA ...Hell, we have enough problems now with a man standing up for things the male is suppose to stand up for. Many women are now having to stand in for where the male has lot his testosterone now....Please, no more sissyfing America...
I had to edit because I couldn't insert a picture of a "Limp Wrist" which many men in America now...

Originally posted by adigregorio

Originally posted by Annee
Yeah - - I live in the REAL world. Going on 65 years now...

Appeal to Authority is another logical fallacy. Just because your experience is different, does not discount the FACT that society sees this as wrong.

See what is wrong exactly?

I believe you stated in "black and white" - - that a Girl is a Girl and a Boy is a Boy - - and that's it.

Well that really isn't it.

I was a child of the 50s - - - I've seen the progression of society - - and how accepting differences is part of today's society - - and will be even more so in the future.

Does anyone believe Kobe would have been fined $100,000 in the 50s for uttering a gay slur?

Children need to be raised for their society - - not their parents. Integrity and Responsibility transcend generations. Gender roles don't need to.

Explanation: S&F!

Disclaimer: OL is a male genetically. Sexually I need no prefix or suffix added to my sexual status!

The two are unrelated except fro the reasons of procreation which I do not indulge in as I see that as murder!

I still have sex! I am and always will be my parents 1st born child!

I learned at a young age there was what my parents were teaching me and thenthere was what my culture and society was teaching me! Sometimes the two were in direct conflict with each other!

I was born in Australia [A highly male dominated patriarchal western 'white' society at that time but also under the changes of multiculturalism etc] and my father is a very reserved man. Not a typical aussie larakin [although his love of dirty and ribald poems is well known], he is the most reasonable man I know and he never taught me to hate in any form whatsoever! However I did become quite racist and bigoted and mysoginistic by pure immersion in my local community!

Isn't there an old saying that it takes an entire village to raise a child.

Parents should consider the community they live and raise their children in as it directly impacts on that child.

Bringing ones male gender children to be 'openly gay' in Iran is NOT recommended no matter how submissive that male gender child may be!

Personal Disclosure: I have no children and if I did I am luckey enough to be in a place where gender is no longer tied to sexuality or lifestyle choices etc. I would be interested in my childs attitude to the world. Thats far more important than 'will I have grandkids' etc!

Some very good, interesting and thought provoking responses....thank you.
I am still unsure of my stance on this....but reading everyone's thoughts is really helping me open my mind and think beyond my norm

Originally posted by Caji316
Please don't sissyfy any more males here in the USA ...Hell, we have enough problems now with a man standing up for things the male is suppose to stand up for. Many women are now having to stand in for where the male has lot his testosterone now....Please, no more sissyfing America...
I had to edit because I couldn't insert a picture of a "Limp Wrist" which many men in America now...

edit on 24-5-2011 by Caji316 because: (no reason given)

Interesting response

Can you expand on what you mean by "man standing up for things the male is suppose to stand up for" and "Many women are now having to stand in for where the male has lot his testosterone now".

Does this go along the lines of men should wear blue not pink?

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes

Originally posted by Annee
Society is evolving.

Human society has constantly been evolving since the dawn of mankind. Evolution is neutral, and any social change that has previously occurred and that will occur in the future is neither good, bad or, most importantly, permanent.

If society gradually evolves to be more tolerant and accepting of others who are different, then that would just be the latest temporary transition that would evolve gradually into something else ( perhaps into a society that encourages intolerance and prejudice ).

The thing with social evolution is that physical human evolution is so microscopic as to be practically irrelevant over anything other than a huge span of time. The differences between humans nowadays and those thousands of years ago are probably extremely negligible.

Humans still have the same glaring shortcomings as they have had throughout their written history, which makes any realistic hope for a Utopian ideal to be nothing short of delusional.

We are an irrational, emotional species who can often - but not always - temper these tendencies by using logic and reason. You can form a theoretical blueprint for an immaculate society, but this will always be doomed to failure due to the fact that the subjects of that society are imperfect and are not inclined to conform to these unnaturally restrictive ideals.

Love your post and agree.

The main two things I believe stand the test of time and generation is: Integrity and Responsibility.

Everything else is a "crap shoot". I like the direction we are going in acceptance. Like Barkley said (my words) "I don't care if you're gay - can you play ball". This is as it should be - - what is your contribution to society.

However - - - as we become more of a survivor society - - with "every man/woman for themself" - - compassion will move to the back burner.