are quasars reflections from black holes?

first to open i have been looking at hundreds of pictures of galaxies and have noticed a "bright" streaking source of light that makes a "8 pointed star"



i have seen this "star like scattering pattern" in alot of pictures of galaxies and i have read that these objects are quasars, which makes sence because these have been studied in depth for a number of years.
if you have a look around you will see a picture of a galaxy with bright 8 point "light streaks" in the fore ground of some galaxies if not most.

now i am not saying these are not quasars but i found something in an image that has made me question the interpretation given to these objects.

in the following picture i have yellow arrows pointing to the images of interest
i would like image interpretation of members between the first and second pictures



what are your interpretations of the difference between the white 8 point stars and the images arrowed

notice anything?

xploder

ok well ill kick off with my own interpretation
the image at the center is refracted images from the image in the center,
in this case a total of five image refractions can be seen

why is this image or refration where a quasar usually is?

does it have some thing to do with the conditions of an active galaxy neclus?

i would like to postulate that if these image artifacts are acually reflections from the neclus
as they seem to be then could quasars also be image artifacts of black holes?

i think the pattern looks identical to the host galaxy and if it can be shown that objects at this distence can be image artifacts, then i would expect all quasars are acually lensed black holes.

can someone offer an explination other than lensed black hole as a refracted image artifact?




xploder

found a better picture from the op



link to pic source

as you can see the refracted image is smaller but around the outside is the same number of objects as the main image.
this leads me to beleive that there are multipule refracted images of the main feature, and the secondary images are in the same area as quasars

is this just a strange coincedence or is the quasar really an image from the center of the observed ga;axy?

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


Those spikes are diffraction spikes, caused by the support struts that hold the secondary mirror in the telescope that took the image.

Any sufficiently bright point-source will generate them.

reply to post by nataylor


thank you for the information on the 8 POINT star light thing

what causes the main image to be refracted into smaller images that "appair" closer or in the foreground of the main picture
is this an artifact as well
ps thanks

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. That picture is not of a galaxy. That's Supernova 1987A. There's no reflection or refraction going on. The two larger outer rings were likely produced when the stars in the binary system at the center began to merge. The middle ring was likely produced by the now single star about 20,000 years before it went supernova. The bright points with the diffraction spikes are two separate stars in the Large Magellanic Cloud, between us and the supernova. The other point you've drawn an arrow to that is not producing diffraction spikes is likely from part of the outer rings interacting with a dim star, heating part of the ring. Diffraction spikes will only be produced by point sources (like stars), not by larger areas (like the rings).

Originally posted by nataylor
reply to post by XPLodER

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. That picture is not of a galaxy. That's Supernova 1987A. There's no reflection or refraction going on. The two larger outer rings were likely produced when the stars in the binary system at the center began to merge. The middle ring was likely produced by the now single star about 20,000 years before it went supernova. The bright points with the diffraction spikes are two separate stars in the Large Magellanic Cloud, between us and the supernova. The other point you've drawn an arrow to that is not producing diffraction spikes is likely from part of the outer rings interacting with a dim star, heating part of the ring. Diffraction spikes will only be produced by point sources (like stars), not by larger areas (like the rings).

i will try to outline the reason i am confused with the image..................
first i didnt realise the picture was of a super nova
secondly when i magnifyed the smaller images (yellow arrows second pic),
the smaller images mirrored the larger supernova and some of the shapes from the larger image seem to corrilate with the smaller images...................
then number of objects in the main picture (supernova) were also found contained within the smaller images....
the major difference was that the smaller images have a bright center area with a point source.

now by what process could the information contained within the larger image (number of blobs of light around the center) be transfered to the smaller seconary images?

to me it looks like the super nova is represented in the smaller images but they "appair" closer to the observer and smaller in size.

IMHO
there is a lensing dynamic involved here which seems to "refract" the main image into multipule (smaller) images both infront (foreground) and behind (backround) the main image.

if correct and the smaller images are a direct refracted image of the larger super nova image then the point source of light in the center must be the star core in the center of the super nova........

now if correct the image in the center of the smaller images is "gravatationally microscoped" by the density and gravity effects of the super nova and displayed at a larger scale then acual
and the surrounding features are "compressed into a smaller image.

this brings me to the idea that quasars are acually the object in the center of galaxies thatare being "lensed" into an "apparient" position (gravatational microscoping) into the foreground of the picture,
and depending on gravatational; and density influences would determine the size and number of images we see
and the strength of the "gravatational microscoping" would determine how far from the parent object the "image" would be

i was hoping some one would be able to see the similarities between the parent object (center) and the smaller objects (with point source added at center because of the grav microscoping)

can you see the corrilation between the arrowed objects and the main image?

or is it just me?

xploder

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d94c9ee63f2d.gif[/atsimg]


Here is an animated gif of it
taken by hubble over a period of 9 years.

Soon after the event was recorded, the progenitor star was identified as Sanduleak -69° 202a, a blue supergiant. This was an unexpected identification, because at the time a blue supergiant was not considered a possibility for a supernova event in existing models of high mass stellar evolution. Current understanding is that the progenitor was a binary system, the stars of which merged about 20,000 years before the explosion, producing a blue supergiant. [color=gold] Difficulties persist with this interpretation.

en.wikipedia.org...

It was the first Supernova that Scientists were able to examine up close.

I'm looking into the posibility of any gravitational lensing from intermediate objects.


David Grouchy

reply to post by XPLodER


I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you're saying. Where exactly are you viewing these images? Google Sky or something? There must be something wrong with whatever you're looking at, as there's no mirroring of smaller images going on in SN1987A. The Large Magelanic Cloud is about 160,000 light years away, not too far at all. There nothing massive enough between here and there for any gravitational lensing to be going on.

It seems very little is known about them so far, but as far as I can tell it is a hot region created by a supermassive black hole that is the theory anyways. www.phys.vt.edu...

edit to add the NASA explanation imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/198a29ba0931.png[/atsimg]


I would say "yes" there is definetly a rather large posibility of gravitational lensing from an intermediate stellar phenomenon.


David Grouchy

reply to post by Golithion


What XPLodER is actually talking about has nothing to do with quasars.

reply to post by nataylor


Then I assume and yes I read it "Are quasars reflections from black holes?" was not a real question then. I was answering that to the best of my abilities.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


The closest known gravitational lens is 450 million light years away. Ao there's a very small chance that any gravitational lensing is involved in this object 160,000 light years away. That and you need an intervening object with a mass of several hundred billion solar masses to produce a lens.

Originally posted by nataylor
reply to post by XPLodER

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you're saying. Where exactly are you viewing these images? Google Sky or something? There must be something wrong with whatever you're looking at, as there's no mirroring of smaller images going on in SN1987A. The Large Magelanic Cloud is about 160,000 light years away, not too far at all. There nothing massive enough between here and there for any gravitational lensing to be going on.

the nasa esa hubble space telescope sight, is where i found the images,

i think i need to try to explain what my suspicions are
1. quasars are a lensing phenomonon
2. the object being lensed is acually what we define as a super massive black hole
3.the warping effect of teh supermassive black hole allows for an increase in image magnification about the center of mass
4. in the instance of the smaller images they are a density/gravity artifact of a lensing phenomon that increases size and brightness in the center 2/3 of the image and shrinks the image on the outter 1/3 of the image
5. regular quasars are found along a prefered axis from the host galaxy that relates to a lensing phenomonon
6. the reason the red shift is higher than the surrounding galaxy is an aboration of the scale size increase

so the idea is the second pic


now if you look closely at the images with the yellow arrows (the outter 1/3) do you see the blobs around the image in a yellowey colour? at this stage forget the center source of light,

do you see the same shape and orintation of the "yellow blobs" in the smaller image and how they "mirror" the larger nova in the mid ground? ie the main nova image

there are at least three of these images scattered around in different places that are identical
to the image except "mirrored"

now on to the bright point in the center,
when strong gravatational influences are at play light tends to "bend" towards the center of a massive object and combined with the density of the medium in a reigion a "microscoping effect enlarges the central reigion into a larger or "microscopped image

that microscoped image in my opinion is what is at the center of this nova

xploder

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/198a29ba0931.png[/atsimg]


I would say "yes" there is definetly a rather large posibility of gravitational lensing from an intermediate stellar phenomenon.

David Grouchy

thank you david
what i supect is happing is a focal interaction between a foreground gravatational lense and a lense around the nova object
the two gravatational lenses intermediate (the one you found) and "local" gravatational lensing around the acual super nova are combining to create a "ghost" image of the nova and scale size is effected.

the center image is increased in size to allow an image of the center reigion to be inlarged and the outter 1/3 to 1/5 to be "compressed"

this could be used to directly "image" massive objects in an alignment between intermediate a lense and the object we are imagings lens.

if the math is corret the two lenses focal interaction acts like a microscope and magnifyes the center of the target gravatational lense into a smaller image artifact on the outter surface of the target lense
except the center 2/3 is the "acual center of mass" ie if this were a galaxy the "blackhole" would be microscoped onto the target lense and its scale size increased to allow direct observation of the supermassive black hole.

an anology would be a magnifying glass with a seconary lense embeded inside it would allow a primary magnification and image on the lense inside the lense and on the exterior of the seconary lense.

when viewed the center of the image is increased or magnifyed but the spherical shape of the lense surface would decrease the magnification oround the outter edge
while increasing the scale or size in the very center of the lense.

now depending on angle of incedence to the lense and the properties of teh lens in the intermediate position and its focal interaction with the imaged lens
you could get a number of surface refracted images in differnt locations.

in my opinion the center of the smaller images are the core of the star that exploded creating the nova
but i doubt that the center image is acually a nova anyway.




in my interpretation the "ring" around the center is acually something behind the target lens and is refracted into "multipule" images of the same object (like an einstiens ring image)

if we could use the same techneique on a galaxy with an active galaxy nuclus and quasars i think we will find the quasars are gravatationally microscoped images of the objects at the center of galaxies



xploder

Originally posted by Golithion
reply to post by nataylor

 

Then I assume and yes I read it "Are quasars reflections from black holes?" was not a real question then. I was answering that to the best of my abilities.

i had incorrectly asumed the images with the yellow arrows were quasars from a galaxy in the backround

please see the above post for detailed explaination


the idea is that quasars are acually lensed black holes that are "microscoped" with gravatational lensing into their "apparent" positions along a prefered axis which would be consistent with focal interaction of a gravity lens

xploder

Originally posted by nataylor
reply to post by XPLodER

 

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you're saying. Where exactly are you viewing these images? Google Sky or something? There must be something wrong with whatever you're looking at, as there's no mirroring of smaller images going on in SN1987A. The Large Magelanic Cloud is about 160,000 light years away, not too far at all. There nothing massive enough between here and there for any gravitational lensing to be going on.

ok i have cropped the images for clarity



this is the refracted image

and this is the original image



do you see how the two images have the same features?

xploder

Originally posted by XPLodER

in my interpretation the "ring" around the center is acually something behind the target lens and is refracted into "multipule" images of the same object (like an einstiens ring image)

This is what I am thinking as well.

I was unable to identify the stars indicated by the yellow arrows,
or find their spectral bands, which is an easy way to
determine if they are the same objects or not.
A match of the spectral omission lines
would tend to indicate that they are
the same body even though
seen as pairs.


David Grouchy

OK, three of the four objects you're pointing out are just stars (the two big ones with the diffraction spikes and the one on the far right). The other thing, the yellow splotch towards the center of the image, is likely part of the outer ring being excited by a star small enough to not be visible.

There are no quasars in that image. There's nothing massive enough to create a gravitational lens in that image.