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Christians, when will you move a mountain?

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posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:23 PM
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Within the Bible it is claimed that Christians are able to do all sorts of extraordinary things. They seem to be superhuman if these claims are right:


Matthew 17:20

And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.


For good measure, he actually says it again:


Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.


And you can kill fig trees on command.

So, when was the last time a Christian moved a mountain with faith? I'm sure it would be a sight to behold.

And what about this gem:


Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.


I've heard all sorts of stories of sicknesses being healed...yet none of them have ever been verified. And...amputees. This verse begs the question of why god won't heal them.

Oh, and apparently they can raise the dead too:


Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Now...when was the last time someone raised the dead in the name of Jesus?

Hell, here are some more superpowers that you get from being a Christian:


Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.


I wonder, what is the poison resistance of most Christians? And why don't they cure my colds when they touch me?

And what's crazier is that Christians are apparently able to do things that even Jesus didn't bother to do in his lifetime:


John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


So...where's all the evidence of all this? Remember, this is supposedly straight from the mouth of Jesus.




posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:44 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



I’m not quite sure why someone is always bashing religion? This site has its share of supporters of religion but in my opinion it seems to have more people calling into question the legitimacy of religion. Who cares what others believe in…you can’t continue to bring up rape in the church because rape simply happens everywhere, at the daycares, at the after school programs, neighbors and relatives houses etc.…Is it more justifiable or less serious if an atheist rapes someone because expectations are different for some people?

People will use whatever tool they can to achieve their means whether for good or negative reasons. Plenty of people collect money for the implied act of donation when in fact they keep it…should that take away from everyone else who want to help contribute to their cause??? Just as we shouldn’t judge all African Americans as being drug dealers or all Italians as mobsters or worse Jersey Shore like lets just allow people to practice their religion as they choose without persecution.

As far as the bible goes some of it may be too amazing to even theorize but so is believing in aliens or ghosts and although I may have thought I had seen them I can’t really say for sure what was seen. I also know when my friend who was and still is an atheist recently dealt with his son going through a very bad fever slash flu where he was hospitalized over night and my friend at the hospital said that in conversation “ I hope to god he gets better as he was welling up” Why did he say that because I believe when the rubber hits the road people have some connection to this and you might say it’s grasping at straws but I would disagree…it will always be a heated topic but I thought my input might be a bit relevant to the post…

Enjoy life while you can because sometimes we run out of mulligans..



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:46 PM
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meditation and prayer charge water into shape.
you seem to be on the bible trip. depending on your perception your interpretation will be different context can be taken many ways. we are intuitive to truth. everything literally is vibration and frequency the language of god. its not a superman thing. we are beings of light experiencing low vibrations to experience a perceived separation from god. even physicality through quantum etc, is god. there isnt and cannot be anything but god, IT the mother/father one god infinity, everything, and anything. we are made of it and are in it. but what a wonderful thing to be and to discover and in your own way the same thing, and through karma and free will, law of intention you cant ruin anyone else surprise and you wouldnt want to anyway, the glory is overwhelming it is a tru awakening to feel complete finally awake as if you were sleeping your entire life till dark turned to light, you are out of the tunnel.

who the cap fit let em wear it, UNI-VERSE = ONE-SONG

no matter how hard anyone tries to have a problem whether they like it or not they are going to be ok.
power of love. do some research on it and not the fragment of the NIV bible thats only half the story of our history a serious diluted verion but the messsage is there. love everyone, and love god with all your heart and strength soul, and you will live. luke 10:25, Luke 12:22



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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I move mountains by not sitting here thinking about ways to make others trip and fall.


edit on 22/5/11 by AdamsMurmur because:




posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by AdamsMurmur
 


Well said my friend...




posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


You'll find that many of the stories in the bible are allegorical.

The parable of the fig tree is exactly that....


6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


So, what is being said here is basically... You can only do so much to change someone. IF they chose not to listen keep trying, but after a while its pointless.

As he also says you will know them by the fruit they bare... Some chose to do good, others do not.


13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


So the "mountain" is those who chose the other path and not the straight one. Not an actual mountain...lol



I've heard all sorts of stories of sicknesses being healed...yet none of them have ever been verified. And...amputees. This verse begs the question of why god won't heal them.


God doesn't interfear with our affairs, we chose our path. Woudn't a prosthetic arm or leg qualifiy as being healed though? Not by God of course, but if you consider God to be all things, those who invented those prosthetic's are also a part of God.


Oh, and apparently they can raise the dead too


Raising the dead in this sence means helping those who do not understand we are more then just flesh. Realization of the spirit within is a step towards the correct path.




posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


And yet some of those statements are clearly not allegorical. The 'being able to kill a fig tree' thing doesn't refer to the allegory of a fig tree, it refers to Jesus getting upset that a fig tree has no fruit and killing it with a word (or it dying the next day, depends on the version).

There's no allegory in being able to handle snakes, and being able to do greater things than Jesus did (you know, the guy that supposedly walked on water, raised the dead, transmuted liquids, cured the blind, healed lepers, cast out demons, and came back from the dead himself) is definitely not allegorical.

This is just a post-hoc rationalization of claims that are clearly literal. Sure, these days (most of us) don't see them as literal because...well...that would be silly.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by AdamsMurmur
 


Except that's not what I'm doing. I'm trying to help people grow and mature. I'm trying to help people connect with what's actually there instead of what they wish was there.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by WhoTheCapFit
 



Originally posted by WhoTheCapFit
meditation and prayer charge water into shape.


No, they don't. I've heard this claim before and it's all based on something that is not true.



you seem to be on the bible trip. depending on your perception your interpretation will be different context can be taken many ways. we are intuitive to truth. everything literally is vibration and frequency the language of god. its not a superman thing.


*facepalm* not this "What the bleep do we know" crap.



we are beings of light experiencing low vibrations to experience a perceived separation from god. even physicality through quantum etc, is god. there isnt and cannot be anything but god, IT the mother/father one god infinity, everything, and anything. we are made of it and are in it. but what a wonderful thing to be and to discover and in your own way the same thing, and through karma and free will, law of intention you cant ruin anyone else surprise and you wouldnt want to anyway, the glory is overwhelming it is a tru awakening to feel complete finally awake as if you were sleeping your entire life till dark turned to light, you are out of the tunnel.


So a bunch of touchy-feely empty words that have nothing to do with anything?




who the cap fit let em wear it, UNI-VERSE = ONE-SONG


...no.



no matter how hard anyone tries to have a problem whether they like it or not they are going to be ok.
power of love. do some research on it and not the fragment of the NIV bible thats only half the story of our history a serious diluted verion but the messsage is there.


Except. No. Again, you're just making baseless assertions. I've done some research into all sorts of things and found that claims such as yours are empty.




love everyone, and love god with all your heart and strength soul, and you will live. luke 10:25, Luke 12:22


I don't love everyone, but I try to...as for the deity thing...why? Where is it? I don't see any reason to believe such a being exists.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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reply to post by chrismarco
 



Originally posted by chrismarco
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I’m not quite sure why someone is always bashing religion?


I'm quoting a religious text and pointing out that this stuff doesn't happen. Apparently highlighting when something is wrong is now a form of 'bashing'.



This site has its share of supporters of religion but in my opinion it seems to have more people calling into question the legitimacy of religion.


Eh...hard to say. It's quite divided.



Who cares what others believe in…you can’t continue to bring up rape in the church because rape simply happens everywhere, at the daycares, at the after school programs, neighbors and relatives houses etc.…


I don't need to bring up rape...but since you mentioned it...those people don't claim to be direct representatives of the omnibenevolent creator of the universe.




Is it more justifiable or less serious if an atheist rapes someone because expectations are different for some people?


No, it's more a matter of presentation. I don't present myself as having a closer connection to goodness, but then again I also don't rape people.


Now, there's also the matter of the religious people trying to shove this all down our throats. In the words of one of my favorite authors, Isaac Asimov:


To be sure, the Bible contains the direct words of God. How do we know? The Moral Majority says so. How do they know? They say they know and to doubt it makes you an agent of the Devil or, worse, a Lbr-l Dm-cr-t. And what does the Bible textbook say? Well, among other things it says the earth was created in 4004 BC (Not actually, but a Moral Majority type figured that out three and a half centuries ago, and his word is also accepted as inspired.) The sun was created three days later. The first male was molded out of dirt, and the first female was molded, some time later, out of his rib. As far as the end of the universe is concerned, the Book of Revelation (6:13-14) says: "And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind." … Imagine the people who believe such things and who are not ashamed to ignore, totally, all the patient findings of thinking minds through all the centuries since the Bible was written. And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.






People will use whatever tool they can to achieve their means whether for good or negative reasons. Plenty of people collect money for the implied act of donation when in fact they keep it…should that take away from everyone else who want to help contribute to their cause???


No, but I can't see a single instance of religion being helpful in a way only religion can be helpful.



Just as we shouldn’t judge all African Americans as being drug dealers or all Italians as mobsters or worse Jersey Shore like lets just allow people to practice their religion as they choose without persecution.


Persecution? I'm sorry, am I saying that all religious people are horrible individuals? No! I'm just saying they're believing something silly. If pointing out something is silly is now persecution then I guess I'm being persecuted when my girlfriend says that my discussions of the physics of fictional stories are silly.



As far as the bible goes some of it may be too amazing to even theorize but so is believing in aliens or ghosts and although I may have thought I had seen them I can’t really say for sure what was seen.


Or some of it is in direct contradiction with reality.



I also know when my friend who was and still is an atheist recently dealt with his son going through a very bad fever slash flu where he was hospitalized over night and my friend at the hospital said that in conversation “ I hope to god he gets better as he was welling up” Why did he say that because I believe when the rubber hits the road people have some connection to this and you might say it’s grasping at straws but I would disagree…it will always be a heated topic but I thought my input might be a bit relevant to the post…


Or he might have been using a conditioned figure of speech. I sometimes use religiously themed exclamations when surprised. Why? Because I was raised Catholic and have been an atheist for only...what...6 years? Out of 22. I've been conditioned by society to use religiously themed exclamations and turns of phrase, but that's just a figure of speech.

Hell, you should...see, did it again! I don't believe in hell, but I still regularly use the word in speech and writing. As I was saying, you should hear me swear in my native tongue...the majority of the profanity in the Maltese language deals with Catholicism. Jesus, God, the Virgin, Eucharist, Bishops, etc.



Enjoy life while you can because sometimes we run out of mulligans..


I do enjoy my life. Right now I'm drinking a nice pint of Guiness and soon I'll be back to doing something I thoroughly enjoy and hope to dedicate part of my life to.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
I'm trying to help people grow and mature.


A mature confident man doesn't spend the majority of his tine attempting to convince the world his view is the only correct view. A confident mature man is secure enough in his beliefs that he can accept others that may not agree with him. The older you get the more you come to accept you don't have all the answers.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by kinglizard
 



Originally posted by kinglizard
A mature confident man doesn't spend the majority of his tine attempting to convince the world his view is the only correct view.


Straw man. I spend a very small fraction of my time doing that. Oh, and I don't do it to the world either, I merely toss out some information and get into some discussions.



A confident mature man is secure enough in his beliefs that he can accept others that may not agree with him.


I do. I don't discuss this sort of thing with the vast majority of religious people I know. Two of my closest friends in the world are religious. I discuss religion with them only in the "What do you believe and why?" sort of way. I don't bother discussing religion with most of my family either. I just like discussing the issue online because I find it cathartic and engaging. Oh, and there are people who are trying to foist certain parts of religion upon the populace, so I sort of have to engage.



The older you get the more you come to accept you don't have all the answers.


Hint: This is why I'm not religious. It tends to be the religious that toss things into holes where they don't have an answer. "God works in mysterious ways".

Oh, and a mature man wouldn't bother with this sort of personal attack which implies that the OP is not a mature man.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I'll agree that some refuse that point of view (this number is shrinking though). The best way for us all to grow is to learn from each other. We are all children in this sense. To say that you're the adult and I'm the child (for example) is arrogant, just like if I were to think you're the child and I'm the adult would be arrogant of me. We're all growing and learning, that's the purpose of life, and to reiterate: we learn best when we look at each others work.

I'll believe what agrees with my common sense and my reason. The evolutionary/naturalist POV makes sense to me, so does the POV of Jesus, the Buddha, etc.
edit on 22/5/11 by AdamsMurmur because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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reply to post by AdamsMurmur
 


The maturity comment was meant to be a discourse thing. We mature through exposure to new ideas and exploration of opposing viewpoints. Have I found anything of value in examining Islam that I didn't already know of? Not really. Did I gain something in exploring Islam? Yes, I gained quite a bit even though I reject pretty much the whole thing.

And I think the idea of common sense is...well...wrong. Common sense is intuition and the world is so often counter-intuitive. Newtonian physics is the closest thing we get to 'intuitive' in modern science...and yet it's so often so far from intuitive.

Do you know what makes sense to me? Evidence supported claims. If a claim is supported by the evidence, I'll accept it. Christians haven't moved mountains, they don't survive drinking poison, they're not going around without fear of poisonous snakes, they're not raising people from the dead or performing faith healing.

And yet these are the same people who claim that their book is perfect.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Theres more then supernatural claims about a guy that walked on water in the bible man. The fact is that isn't what matters. I couldn't care less if he walked on water or cured sick people, it was the way he treated everyone that should be studied and admired.

Its more about the life he led then the super powers he had... (if any)




posted on May, 23 2011 @ 03:26 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


You mean like insulting people who didn't agree with him? You mean condemning those who didn't want to follow his teachings? You mean emphasizing devotion to him? You mean making people leave their families destitute and fatherless?

Sure, the guy said a few good things, but he also did some horribly silly things.

And again, the things he said aren't new. I've many examples of people who lived much better lives than he, who did more good for the work.
Like Norman Borlaug, quite possibly the greatest person who ever lived.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


MIMS has already answered you, but I would like to add my own comments.

All anybody really needs to know about the bible and the movements, organizations, churches etc build around it, is Genesis 1 and 2, and some knowledge of the redemption doctrine from NT.

Genesis 1 is (to my knowledge) the alleged inspired information from the creator of cosmos, and as such it should be rather precise. You would expect a creator to know his creation. It takes the peculiar paths of a creationist mindset to make genesis 1 into anything even slightly resembling cosmos as we know it to be through science/logic.
(Any creationist reading this, ..... save me from knowledge-vacuum pseudologic arguments, please).

Genesis 2 has as many interpretations as is possible, but after some threads here last year, where it was chewed over from all potential perspectives, the only option which held water, was to make 'original sin' a question of 'disobedience' to an entity, which in rational terms seems to be a control-freak with a clear schizoid paranoia/megalomania syndrome.

As this kind of insane personalities ofcourse never are 'wrong', the blame for whatever shortcomings in the universe had to be put somewhere else. And in spite of a totally confused chronology, this blame is put on Eve, Adam and the talking snake, to make the character of the creator-sociopath go free from responsibility.

Pauline redemption: To appease the wrath of this alleged creator-entity's tantrums, but still keep a control-grip on the situation, a new bondage-doctrine arose as an extension of the old one. Though NT still depends on OT to have 'meaning'.

There are some finer points in the transmission from OT control-mechanisms to NT control-mechanisms. E.g. is Melchizedek dusted of and as usual signs 'contracts' on somebody's behalf, whether the somebodies are consenting or not.

To cover up for these irrational basic postulates, some 1300 pages of patchwork have been constructed along the way, every time a weak spot is uncovered and challenged. And then patchwork on the patchwork. This smokescreen is a collection of confused and inner-contradicting anecdotes, and an elaborate reference-system has grown up around it, adding to the smokescreen effect. There's always a handy argument hidden somewhere in the system, and never mind about overall coherency.

And the last resort of the bible/'god' adherers, when everything else crumbles, is some allegedly divine moral platitudes. Unfortunately the control-mechanism must stay intact at any price, so the moral platitudes are constructed in such a way, that there's still a hook in the form of conditions.

A closer analysis of this is presently beyond the point, so I'll just direct attention to (without being a buddhist myself), that e.g. buddhism's compassion/empathy version of a 'golden rule' is far better than the christian version. The buddhist version is unconditional, its scope is broader, and best of all, you don't have to include any imagined supernatural being into the equation. You can be a 'good' person without hallelujahs or any sneaked-in supernaturalism as a sales-argument.

Personally I also consider utilitarian morality superior to the christian model, but this would probably sidetrack the whole thread, taken up as parallel topic.


edit on 23-5-2011 by bogomil because: typo and vocabulary



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 



You mean like insulting people who didn't agree with him?


Passage please...


You mean condemning those who didn't want to follow his teachings?


He knew the correct path, which is the path of the spirit not the flesh... this is refected in his teachings. IF he was actually sent from God to show man the path... why wouldn't he condem those who wouldnt' listen?

If you were a professional at whatever job you do, and you told your people to do something which you knew was correct and they didn't listen wouldn't you disipline them? Or even threaten to fire them?


You mean emphasizing devotion to him?


Yes...


You mean making people leave their families destitute and fatherless?


I've explained this to your friend Awakeandaware... You simply do not understand this passage. It doesn't mean leave your family, nor does it mean hate your mother and father. It means don't follow the needs of the flesh, seek the way of the spirit.


Sure, the guy said a few good things, but he also did some horribly silly things.


Please show me these silly things he said... Im sure you just don't understand the meaning behind the passage...


And again, the things he said aren't new. I've many examples of people who lived much better lives than he, who did more good for the work.


Ya thats great but this isn't about Norman Borlaug. Your post was about an alligorical statement in the bible, which i clarified for you... and im more then happy to do the same for your other questions as well.




posted on May, 23 2011 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 



Genesis 1 is (to my knowledge) the alleged inspired information from the creator of cosmos, and as such it should be rather precise. You would expect a creator to know his creation. It takes the peculiar paths of a creationist mindset to make genesis 1 into anything even slightly resembling cosmos as we know it to be through science/logi


Actually Genesis lines up pretty accurately according to what science states... I think you'd be supprized... And again inspired or not, it was written by the hand of man.


Genesis 2 has as many interpretations as is possible, but after some threads here last year, where it was chewed over from all potential perspectives, the only option which held water, was to make 'original sin' a question of 'disobedience' to an entity, which in rational terms seems to be a control-freak with a clear schizoid paranoia/megalomania syndrome.


Original sin has to do with your own accumulated Karma, it has nothing to do with obedience to any entity. No one has any obligation to act appropriately towards anyone or anything. that is your choice(free will). Negitive action results in negitive Karma and vice versa.

There is nothing that Governs your actions aside from yourself. This is a large misconception of what God is... God is not an entity that watches over our actions in life. You create your own Karma be it positive or negitive which will correct you accordingly in this life or the next.


As this kind of insane personalities ofcourse never are 'wrong', the blame for whatever shortcomings in the universe had to be put somewhere else. And in spite of a totally confused chronology, this blame is put on Eve, Adam and the talking snake, to make the character of the creator-sociopath go free from responsibility.


Yup, its complete nonsence....


Pauline redemption: To appease the wrath of this alleged creator-entity's tantrums, but still keep a control-grip on the situation, a new bondage-doctrine arose as an extension of the old one. Though NT still depends on OT to have 'meaning'.


Not true... IF the rest of the bible was disposed of yet Christs words were still present things would be simplier to understand for most people.


A closer analysis of this is presently beyond the point, so I'll just direct attention to (without being a buddhist myself), that e.g. buddhism's compassion/empathy version of a 'golden rule' is far better than the christian version. The buddhist version is unconditional, its scope is broader, and best of all, you don't have to include any imagined supernatural being into the equation. You can be a 'good' person without hallelujahs or any sneaked-in supernaturalism as a sales-argument.

Personally I also consider utilitarian morality superior to the christian model, but this would probably sidetrack the whole thread, taken up as parallel topic.


Unfortunatly man "christians" don't actually understand their own book, which is the underlying problem. This is why i don't subscribe to christianity or any religion for that matter. No one should tell you whats in the bible, you should read it for yourself.

I've also found many christians that claim to have read the bible still do not understand the message. And its actually said that the bible is "locked" to those who do not understand the words of Christ. I would actually agree with that statement simply because so many do not "get it"




posted on May, 24 2011 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Hi, thanks for your answer.

You wrote: [" Actually Genesis lines up pretty accurately according to what science states... I think you'd be supprized... And again inspired or not, it was written by the hand of man."]

I'm very enthusiastic about syncretism, and I'm aware, that groups with various perspectives on the greater existential questions can develop their own symbols and language, but as I wrote, it takes a creationist mind to bend genesis 1 into anything like contemporary science.

Without getting into a lengthy and detailed analysis of each element, I'll just point out the inconsistencies on photosynthesis, the chronology of astonomical bodies, the 'firmament', the cosmic 'sea' (waters).

Sofar I haven't got the impression, that you're a creationist, but rather lean on an allegorical and symbolic bible-interpretation. But such an approach isn't objective and if objectivity per se is questioned, this is OK with me, but requires some explanations.

Subjectivity is everybody's right, but for me the condition is to play with true colours. Hijacking and transforming systematic methodologies to fit your own purposes is NOT acceptable.

I stress this part of the debate, because 'miracles' (mountain-moving etc) in one way can be defined as transgressing the socalled natural laws of cosmos, so the whole area of cosmic 'natural laws' and their inclusiveness is an important point.

Quote: ["Original sin has to do with your own accumulated Karma,"]

If you with 'karma' mean causality, this sounds reasonable, but I doubt, that the bible/bible-christians anywhere use the concept karma as it's used in eastern religion/semi-religion. Karma as related to 'values' must have a reference-point (e.g. what's good/bad), and eastern and western reference-points in this context vary considerably.

In any case 'original sin' as an explanation of the existence of suffering in the universe can't be blamed on mankind, as we arrived very late on the scene.

Quote: ["it has nothing to do with obedience to any entity."]

Feel free to present a symbolic re-interpretation of genesis 2, instead of my rather literal interpretation of its actual verbal content.

Quote: ["No one has any obligation to act appropriately towards anyone or anything."]

In a broad context the question of free will has generally been approached on quite doctrinal grounds. The judeo-christian camp ranges from predestination to free will (even concerning 'angels' there are differing opinions). But I seldom see any sensible, 'reasoning' debate on it.

I'm not hysterically exclusive with using 'rational', 'logic', 'objectivity' etc, but when these concepts can be applied, they must be included and satisfied, if any argument is to be considered valid. And free will (even relating to a hypothetical reference-point of values) can as a concept be examined on rational terms.

Quote: ["Negitive action results in negitive Karma and vice versa."]

Before this can give meaning, 'negative' has to be defined and validated.

Quote: ["This is a large misconception of what God is... God is not an entity that watches over our actions in life."]

I'll let you users of the word 'god' settle that. For practical, non-confusing, use, I regularly insist on a removal of the word 'god' from any communication on general ground. The word itself must have some 50.000+ varied meanings and is one of the worst semantic traps existing.

Quote: ["Not true... IF the rest of the bible was disposed of yet Christs words were still present things would be simplier to understand for most people."]

What I in a positive sense call 'soup-kitchen' christians are wonderful people. For many years I had such a fundamentalist christian as a close friend and co-participant in many areas of life. He was fantastic. Whereas I despise the pushers of the submission-predestination variety, who should restrict such attitudes to themselves.

Quote: ["Unfortunatly man "christians" don't actually understand their own book, which is the underlying problem. This is why i don't subscribe to christianity or any religion for that matter. No one should tell you whats in the bible, you should read it for yourself."]

Which is why I'm not so 'vicious' towards you, as I sometimes can be. We can all have our personal quirks or ideosynchracies, but a general principle of social tolerance is a must for me (as an individual, I'm not always 'tolerant'..."my home is my castle"-thingy).

Quote: ["I've also found many christians that claim to have read the bible still do not understand the message."]

That's between you and them, but bible-inspired individuals like you and e.g. my favourite IAMIAM fit nicely into my 'the next-best of all worlds' (I'm not here presently to push the 'best' version).

Quote: ["And its actually said that the bible is "locked" to those who do not understand the words of Christ."]

It can't have escaped your attention, that I am rather inclined in the direction of the 'esoteric', mysticism and metaphysics, though I have a very guarded approach which insist on including premises of science/logic. So I'm no stranger to your words, though even your attitude (tolerant) for some people can turn into a 'I'm holier than you' ( or: "I'm esotericalier than you") hierarchy.

To sum it up, relating to topic:

'Moving mountains', conceptually, theoretically and practically, is MORE than presenting essays. ANY approach (rational/objective/logic or not) has its own chain of reasoning. Transcending the natural laws of cosmos (or not) is not a subject for doctrinal 'absolutes' used axiomatically, but has to go to the limits of human knowledge and understanding.




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