Neurologist acuses psychiatry of fraud; Stevie Nicks concurs.

I'd say that some people do have a chemical imbalance, but the majority of people do not need psychotropic drugs. This majority is living out of touch with themselves, making them think they have an imbalance. They do, but it's in their lifestyle, not neurotransmitters.

Okay, so what is the test that is done that determines this "chemical imbalance?" I'm not saying there isn't such a thing. All I'm saying is we have heard this term used by the psychiatric industry for so long, yet I am curious what tests have proven this? What "chemicals" are off balance? And what are the specific symptoms if one of these chemicals is "off balance?"

Okay... so if, say, Jared Loughner had somehow got the help he obviously needed, and was taking medication to control his delusions, you'd be the one to step up and say hey Jared, you don't need those pills, you should stop taking them. I'm sure nothing bad would happen...right? Would you be happy to look in the face of a murdered child's parents and say 'It's better that the delusional maniac who shot your kid wasn't taking any medication'? Would Stevie Nicks?

Originally posted by sepermeru
Okay... so if, say, [color=gold] Jared Loughner had somehow got the help he obviously needed, and was taking medication to control his delusions, you'd be the one to step up and say hey Jared, you don't need those pills, you should stop taking them. I'm sure nothing bad would happen...right? Would you be happy to look in the face of a murdered child's parents and say 'It's better that the delusional maniac who shot your kid wasn't taking any medication'? Would Stevie Nicks?

Pharmaceutical deaths per year are over 100,000.
You're gonna scare me with one name?
Wasn't he angry about money?
Who's making delusional
connections here?


David Grouchy


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ed703eb9763e.png[/atsimg]

reply to post by davidgrouchy


So you would look in the face of those families and say 'It's better that he wasn't on any medication'? Yes or no?

Originally posted by sepermeru
so if, say, Jared Loughner had somehow [color=salmon] got the help he obviously needed , and [color=lightgreen]was taking medication

Originally posted by sepermeru
So you would look in the face of those families and say 'It's better that he wasn't on any medication'? [color=salmon] Yes or [color=lightgreen]no?

Is everything only red or green, are there no other colors?
The connection between getting help and taking medication
has[color=gold] failed to be established by any evidence presented here, and
seems presumptuous almost like using agent orange to gas a roach.
And what is with this antisocial predatory behaviour of forcing me into choosing
a yes or no answer? I thought this was a discussion forum. Are you a game show host?


David Grouchy

Originally posted by JiggyPotamus
My question then is this; if ADHD is not a real disease, and amphetamine-like drugs are prescribed after diagnosis, why then do the amphetamines tend to calm the children down? I always accepted that there was in fact a chemical imbalance that was corrected with these types of drugs. I could be wrong I suppose.

I was diagnosed with ADD just last year, however I chose not to take any drugs. Instead I chose meditation and exercises that calm the mind. It isn't that I can't sit still or anything, it is just that I get bored with almost everything in about 10 minutes. It's hard to explain, but it is really annoying.

I also have ADD, but I decided to take what was prescribed to me. It's a blessing and a curse. Your body gets used to it and without the medication I get really tired and just want to sleep the whole day. Granted, that isn't much different from when I wasn't on the medication. But it does help my focus and stay awake and has helped me live a much more normal(?) life.

I was just thinking of a way to describe what ADD and what's so different about it compared to ADHD.

I figure the best way to put it is that ADHD is being unable to focus on any one thing because you have too much energy. ADD is more like you have too much going on in your head to focus, so things become boring rather quickly. And yes, it is quite frustrating. Sometimes I don't take my medicine just because everything just becomes so trivial.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


Heck, it doesn't have to be yes or no. An answer at all would be good. Are you seriously arguing that it's better that he was not on medication, and are you sure enough of that to assert it to his victims?

I'll make it even simpler. Forget Jared. Meet a guy called Julio. He owns a gun, and he hears voices telling him to shoot people who wear the color orange. You meet up with Julio and he says 'Hey man, I have this pill I could take, I tried it before and it makes the voices and the urges to shoot people who wear orange go away. But I like the voices because I like the idea of shooting people who wear orange.'

You tell him 'Yeah, man, don't take the pill'? That is your argument, that he should not take that pill? What do you think he should do?

www.cchrint.org...

Here in the States, as of 2007, the Centers for Disease Control announced that 5.4 million U.S. schoolchildren five to 17 years old had ADHD. And you can be sure that they have all been on ADHD drugs, which are, for the most part, amphetamines, which are known to be addictive, dangerous, deadly.

Ritalin has passed $1 billion a year in sales. Ritalin is no longer the top ADHD drug in the U.S. I think Adderall, which is made up of amphetamines, passed Ritalin a few years ago in market share.

I had no idea that these drugs are amphetamines

I don't understand why ADD or ADHD are being treated with amphetamines but then I am not a medical person so what do I know.

I would have imagined that amphetamines would make the ADD/ADHD patient more fidgety, less attentive, etc, is this not so?

Stevie nicks concurs...
Psychiatry is bad ummkay. But having coc aine blown up your arse by lackeys is fine and dandy.

Originally posted by sepermeru
Heck, it doesn't have to be yes or no. An answer at all would be good. Are you seriously arguing that it's better that he was not on medication, and are you sure enough of that to assert it to his victims?

I'll make it even simpler. Forget Jared. Meet a guy called Julio. He owns a gun, and he hears voices telling him to shoot people who wear the color orange. You meet up with Julio and he says 'Hey man, I have this pill I could take, I tried it before and it makes the voices and the urges to shoot people who wear orange go away. But I like the voices because I like the idea of shooting people who wear orange.'

You tell him 'Yeah, man, don't take the pill'? That is your argument, that he should not take that pill? What do you think he should do?

edit on 24-5-2011 by sepermeru because: edit button makes me happy

I'm not trying to argue with you, or be evasive. Only to indicate that questioning of our asumptions can be useful. Psychiatry is both dangerous and simultaneously has the tools to make everyone "feel-good" about the profession without critical analysis.

Consider the completely hypothetical/fictional person Julio now posited. Somehow, discussing imaginary people and making conclusions about the emotions surrounding the decisions affecting their fairy-lives is the right-thing-to-do when making decisions for the future of mankind.

Here,
allow me to share a real experience with a real person I have had.

This man was the son of a Cuban expatriot. His father was part of the planned invasion force to capture Cuba. He raised his son to hate America, and the governemnt who had betrayed his people. When his father died He inherited an arsenal of millitary weapons, thousands of rounds of amunition, and tons of antique firearms like original colt revolvers and civil war weapons.

He told me that on the day of the revolution in America he wanted me to be incharge of the people he was going to arm. He was well educated, but rejected society and institutions, constantly cultivating underworld connections. He was deep into demon summoning, and told me about the Mistress of Pain who would torture him sometimes with her whip. I consider this man to be a far greater threat that any Jared or Imaginary Julio.

I taught him computing, and got him on the internet. He really liked voicing his well lettered opinions on the AOL forums of the time. I showed him that AOL was just a little pond and the entire internet was much much larger; introducing him to the old Usenet Newsgroups. It was there that he learned that radical anarchist were everywhere, but most of them illinformed, emotional, and irrational. He tried to get them to see reason.

See instead of recomending a psychiatrist, or medication, I shared with him a safe venue to test out his desires, and guage the reactions of people at large.

He became very dissillusioned with the "people" and decided that an overthrow or a revolution would just make things worse. That educating people to facts is better. He is now an active blogger commenting on all things political in Louisiana.

What would have happened, on the other hand, if he had been put on strong medication and missed a few days showing the classical symptoms of pschotic withdrawl?

See the problem with Jared is not that he wasn't on medication or under the care of a licensed psychiatrist, it's that he _stopped_ posting on the internet. No one took his posts seriously. My friend, on the other hand, is lettered enough to at least have his blogs read.

My friend has sold all of his firearms.

Jared's problems are related to his dropping out of the education system.

But in none of this, do I see a single iota of evidence that the psychiatry profession and its gibbering gangs of mad medicators are going to solve A GODDAMN THING by doping everyone up ad nauseum.

In otherwords, what Stevie Nicks is saying; even though her brain is not what it used too be and she can't find the words to say it is: I never produced anymore great music after putting myself under the care of a psychiatrist. They killed her genius. Her ability to express herself through her art was damaged.

Now go back and read my first post in this thread.
Everysingle word still stands as both the micro and macro
total analysis of the whole problem, and the real actual solution.


David Grouchy

Here it is again.
Ignore it at your own risk.
=============================================================








When I was young,
my dad did a lot of research,
and found us a family doctor that specialized in sports medicine.

He said that he was curious why the popular view of medicine was about treating illness.
That a doctor should be able to detect a healthy person, and maybe even improve their performance. Just like the expensive doctors that the NFL used. Isn't is strange that some doctors will keep looking until they find something wrong.

I'm still waiting for evidence from the Psychiatric profession that their treatments have produces a single genius. Hell, even a slightly smarter more well adjusted person would be a start. I, for one, endorse the obvious slant of the opening post as a healthy dose of self preservation and suspicion.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by sepermeru

So you would look in the face of those families and say 'It's better that he wasn't on any medication'? Yes or no?

The quote above is nothing more than a political dirty trick, of using emotions to be a tyrant. Who ever wrote this is an unpaid advocate of the pharmaceutical industry and doesn't even realize it. I imagine they watch TV, as they seem to be well studied in how to use emotions to tyrannize a disenting voice without being bothered to consider the other position.


David Grouchy

Originally posted by sepermeru
reply to post by davidgrouchy

 

Heck, it doesn't have to be yes or no. An answer at all would be good. Are you seriously arguing that it's better that he was not on medication, and are you sure enough of that to assert it to his victims?

I'll make it even simpler. Forget Jared. Meet a guy called Julio. He owns a gun, and he hears voices telling him to shoot people who wear the color orange. You meet up with Julio and he says 'Hey man, I have this pill I could take, I tried it before and it makes the voices and the urges to shoot people who wear orange go away. But I like the voices because I like the idea of shooting people who wear orange.'

You tell him 'Yeah, man, don't take the pill'? That is your argument, that he should not take that pill? What do you think he should do?

edit on 24-5-2011 by sepermeru because: edit button makes me happy

The problem with your posts is that you equate getting help with being on medication. Kids with adhd, depression or anxiety are a ballpark away from people hearing voices telling them to shoot people.

reply to post by davidgrouchy


Want to guess what the deaths per year would be without pharmaceutical companies?

Quite expansive..

A lot of us are addicted to coffee. Coffee is a stimulant, like an amphetamine. Sometimes I get real bored. I just don't want to do anything given my circumstances. For example, I might want to see china, but since I'm stuck at home all I got is what is in front of me. So I sit around bored, inattentive. Then I drink a cup of coffee. BAM! Suddenly I'm interested again and open books and get on the computer and code. I think a lot of it's psychological. For a string of 5 months I went without coffee and found that I would habitually grab for my water bottle and drink it just like I used to drink the coffee. EVentually I fell back into drinking coffee again because it seems like it helps to motivate me, especially out in the world when things can get stressful or very boring.

When I was younger I never drank coffee. I did get bored, though. Slept in class a few times, the usual shinnanigans. But I got good grades. My reasoning for originally drinking coffee was work. It helped me to focus and overcome nervousness around others because of social anxieties. There's nothing like coming in for your 15 min break and drink a warm cup of coffee to lift you up.

I think I just get bored real easily. I wish I enjoyed reading books or doing work. If I did, I'd a much happier and successful person. Unfortunately, I have to be forced or I force myself or I just drink coffee. Sometimes I get myself to do things by focusing on a reward. The only reason I finished school and went to college was because I was afraid of wrath from my parents and deep down I didn't want to fail them. I don't think it's natural for humans to read books and focus like they do now. Everything is so out of whack. We sit a lot and suck in more information than people did in entire lifetimes. It's unnatural but I guess this is evolution. Survival of the fittest. Those who can't keep up fall behind and don't spread their genes. If I was born today, I'd probably be diagnosed as having ADHD or some kind of anxiety disease. I'm grateful I'm not hooked on drugs.

I took a drugs class a few years ago at the local college. That's enough. I don't want any pills. I realize that my way of thinking probably is inhibiting me, but I've seen more than a few people stuck on drugs. I don't care whether they're psychotropic or not, whether they're legal or not, drugs are drugs are drugs unless you're the most insane and dangerous person and need to be on them for the sake of saving lives.

I can tell you what will happen. Those who thrive in this environment, who love to read and learn and sit in classrooms and do the same thing over and over in the workplace or talk to others even in big crowds or do anything that we didn't do as much in the past or not at all, these are going to be the kind of people that evolution favors. In a few hundred years most people will be this way. I don't feel there'll be as many people like me anymore. People won't need drugs to enjoy this way of life. It'll happen more naturally. Unfortunately, for us (and me), we have to take the punch for humanity just like our ancestors did when they were evolving.

So, honestly, don't worry about it. The pharma industry is just doing what comes naturally to them. And those of us who don't keep up very well without help or assistance from others are our own problem, not yours. Not everybody finds it so difficult to pay attention in class or to not feel anxious or anxiety around others or to work without getting excessively bored and neglectful. If you look at successful people in the world, I'm willing to bet they're highly ambitious and do not need all of this hand holding or assistance to get by. We're not a threat to them.

And the fact that recess has been removed from almost all the schools,
precisely at the age when children should be developing physically,
has nothing to do with the rise in restless children
who then have to be medicated.

Chicago Public Schools Recess: District Offers Guidelines For Bringing It Back

But, please, don't let me get
inbetween your sacred
addiction to drugs
as a panacea.


David Grouchy

wel..i have a new roomate. she was telling me, her b/f he 33, her 25,..is goign to india for 2 years, for his job* he is on aderoll and zanax. other night at bar, he was fine, then accused her of lying and conspirating with ehr sisters about him..they got into a heated argument, then didnt remember any of it. but he did work work 52 hours because of his job. some kinda distributing n technology thing. hence forth he takes aderoll to stay awake* i told her it was overkill, and too research the side effects..
well, they wanted counseling, more on his part to stay together..the psychiatrist said when he goes to india soon, to not talk to her for a few weeks at all...that was wrong! thats how relationships grow apart. i was in 2 long distance relationships in the past..so i know. its about trust and beliving in eachother. its important if yuo belive in eachother, to communicate. comunications in any relationship is the most important thing. i though and felt the psychiatrist was so full of it. telling you things you both already know and know wha to do, let alone simply prescribing mind altering, mood chaning drugs. i always though and sensed, by todays stadards, psychiatirsts are in it for the money , kickbacks or something, and will gladly prescribe you some bulls**t pill that makes you hear voices, mild schizophrenia, kills yuor liver, 72 hour erections, stomach bleeding. sick sick sick

Originally posted by davidgrouchy
And the fact that recess has been removed from almost all the schools,
precisely at the age when children should be developing physically,
has nothing to do with the rise in restless children
who then have to be medicated.

Chicago Public Schools Recess: District Offers Guidelines For Bringing It Back

But, please, don't let me get
inbetween your sacred
addiction to drugs
as a panacea.

David Grouchy

I'd seriously laugh in your face if we were face-to-face. Do you honestly think they'd do this when our newspapers are full of scolding about high-sugar foods and lack of exercise in our lifestyles. The president's wife came on TV to tell us to play hoops because it's good for us. (some great NBA games lately - checkout dirk) I'm pretty sure my local school still has recess. Anyway, do you have any other evidence that shows recess is being removed from our nationside public schools?

There is so much pressure to compete with asian schools. I wonder if this leads some districts to decrease the amount of recess minutes or non-academic minutes. *shakes head* What bothers me is we may never achieve what asians do simply because their IQ is a bit higher and their system is either more socialist or more communist. Trying to achieve what they achieve by doing what they do might not work here. We have to treat our kid a little different. Failure to do so may cause more trouble than ti's worth. Like slapping a cd in a blueray player.

I still think our problems are inability to enforce workplace standards, environmental laws and labor laws on foreign companies that we do business with. Inability to do this means we're shortchanging ourselves. When we started shipping manufacturing jobs overseas our low skilled wokers didn't have anywhere to go except the bargain bin jobs that can't supply a livable wage. So we expect them to go to school and suddenly become highly skilled workers? I'm afraid the real world doesn't work like that. Sometimes a low skilled worker is a low skiled worker for life and failure to acknowledge this is ruinous to our labor force.

That and the iraqistan war (over $1 trillion now and going towards 3), 9/11, new orleans, etc.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
Anyway, do you have any other evidence that shows recess is being removed from our nationside public schools?

Oh My God!

How do people not know about this.

See this is the problem, I have to deal with vast gangs of brainwashed people
who want to shout me down for criticizing psychiatry and the rampant overmedicating of people,
when those very same nay-sayers have no actual information on what is currently going on in America.

But I sure have been subjected to various froms of emotional tyranny in this thread.

NOW I HAVE TO DO YOUR FREAKIN RESEARCH FOR YOU TOO?

WHY,
TELL ME WHY?
YOU AREN'T EVEN READING WHAT I'M WRITTING IN THE FIRST PLACE
AND EVERY #ING RESPONSE IS JUST MOVING THE TARGET.


David Grouchy


Banning School Recess

What happened to RECESS?

Recess: Is It Needed in the 21st Century?

Should Schools Take a Break from Recess?

Right to Recess Campaign

Too cold for recess? School policies vary as much as temps