It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

In light of today's events how credible is Christianity and its bible?

page: 3
3
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 11:36 PM
link   
reply to post by PieKeeper
 


you fail to see the root of the problem..please kindly read my previous response




posted on May, 23 2011 @ 12:45 AM
link   
reply to post by LiveEquation
 



what do you mean by John's "vision" was even more rare... ?


John said he was transported in the spirit to see Daniel's 70th week, as well as the events in the throne room of heaven when the seals were opened and when the church was receiving rewards at the Bhema seat of Christ. That's rare because Daniel said his was more like a "dream".




I just read the whole of revelations and i didn't read any record of John saying that he was taken to Daniels 70th day in the Spirit...


It's Daniel's 70th "week", not day. And the Hebrew for "week" is week of years, not the week of days. Hebrew has a week of days, a week of years. "Daniel's 70th week" is a term for the 7 year tribulation. "The Day of the Lord" or "the Lord's Day" can mean either the Day the Lord returns to Earth, or the 1,000 year reign of Christ on Earth. The OT prophets spoke of both "days" as the Lord's Day/Day of the Lord. John says he was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day in Revelation 1:10-11:


"On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: “Write on a scroll what YOU SEE and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”


Christ tells John to write all he will "SEE" in the upcoming vision and send it to 7 churches in Turkey/Asia minor. And numerous times after that point john says "And I saw." "and I saw.." And next I saw.."


Please answer my questions below so i can understand better what you mean....Quote a verse for me please as well ( i need a record of it)



1. What is the Bible's definition of being in the Spirit?


According to Strong's "Pneuma" can mean either the Holy Spirit, an angel, or a human soul that has left the body. The only other reference I can find is where Paul says he had an out of the body experience and viewed the 3rd heaven. He said he wasn't sure if he was in the spirit or not for that trip to heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

I think we can agree that John was not in an angel, or the Holy Spirit because the Spirit dwells in us not vice versa, so like Paul, John must have been in his spirit, outside his body. There is other Biblical justification for this on rare occasions (Paul).


2. Where in the bible does it say John left his body behind and was in the Spirit?


See above. And at Revelation 4:1 John is taken to heaven to the throne room to witness the events immediately after the Harpazo. And sees events during the tribulation on Earth, the Bhema seat judgment in heaven in Revelation 11, the day the Lord returns to Earth with the church, and the 1,000 year reign of Christ.


3. Did Jesus ever Hallucinate/have Visions and claim He was in the Spirit?


No, why is that relevant? It's not suggested that John or Paul had a "hallucination" either, but were transported by God for the sole purpose of writing/documenting what they saw.


4. When Jesus said people will see him coming in his Kingdom, was he implying that people would see this event in their minds(vision/dreams)? If this is true then how reliable is your interpretation?


He didn't imply any. He said some would "see" it before they died. John did and wrote a book describing what he saw of that event, end of story. And perhaps Peter did too, but that's not explicitly stated in the text, however, Peter makes references to things that will happen on Earth after Judgment Day.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 12:48 AM
link   

Originally posted by PieKeeper
As a whole, this wasn't a loss or gain for "Christianity." Some christians believe in the rapture, some don't. Harold Camping has only discredited himself.


I don't know how one could further "discredit" themselves. He was proved a false prophet in 1994. If this was OT times he'd be at the bottom of a rock pile outside the city gates.

I'm fairly sure back then no one made these wild predictions unless they were certain God had given them a prophetic revelation.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 04:42 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Do you realize you did not use bible records/verses to answer all my questions?

In all your answers you cannot find a verse of truth in the bible to support your claims or even define the words you use.

-In the whole bible there is no mention of John being in Daniel's 70th "week". Hence your interpretation is false

-In the whole bible there is no mention of John having an out of body experience. Hence your interpretation is false

-The bible has no definition of what it means to in the spirit so i did not expect you to have an answer. Your definition of what it means to be in the spirit is therefore not based on truth

-I asked you if Jesus ever had visions or claimed to have had some...You failed to see how relevant this is because Christianity believes in this Jesus...

wouldn't you rather trust Jesus more than someone like John who claims to have been shown symbolic events that demand to be interpreted? And then threatens you at the end of his work not to subtract or add to what he wrote?

How are you any different from Harold Camping?



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 06:23 AM
link   
reply to post by LiveEquation
 


Once again just like you have illustrated that the King James Bible is a man made Story!!!
and if you read what he …. just said in the reply above yours …..He admits and also said "End of Story"
(refering to ( NOTurTypical's )reply

The King James Bible--
Which is based upon some fiction information, for the most part fiction is fiction in an story .
I have included the definitions to some words obviously that Some Christians are absenteed from these definitions. Because to believe what you want to is ok with me … but on the other hand don’t try to infect others with falseness it just don’t work for the most part and for many a folk.

I have stated that the Bible does have some possible truth to it .. and I say some of it..
Faith is what is in the eye of the beholder ok ... and Harold C. took it upon himself to convince many people the Rapture was coming .. to me this is no different than the Christians constantly tryng to convince you that the Bible is the whole truth and nothing but the truth .. No wonder they crucified Jesus and the Disciples fled .. they knew also they didnt want to die ..

This is what caused so much turmoil back in the early times 10th century and who knows probably before that ?? I’m guessing that the common folk and many disbelieved the Bible way back then.

Theology, Philosophy., Truth.

phi·los·o·phy

1. examination of basic concepts: the branch of knowledge or academic study devoted to the systematic examination of basic concepts such as truth, existence, reality, causality, and freedom


the·ol·o·gy

1. study of religion: the study of religion, especially the Christian faith and God's relation to the world


fic·tion
[fíksh'n](plural fic·tions)
n

1, literary works of imagination: novels and stories that describe imaginary people and events


truth
1. something factual: the thing that corresponds to fact or reality If you tell the truth, you have nothing to fear. spoke the truth

2, true quality: correspondence to fact or reality

3/ true statement: a statement that corresponds to fact or reality His story was a mixture of truths and untruths.

4. obvious fact: something that is so clearly true that it hardly needs to be stated

5. something generally believed: a statement that is generally believed to be true a religious truth

6. honesty: honesty and sincerity I can say in all truth that I never knew about his crimes.

7, conformity: adherence to a standard or law

8. loyalty: faithfulness to a person or a cause (dated)

U.K. accuracy: accuracy of alignment, setting, position, or shape (dated)

[ Old English trēowth "faithfulness" < trēow (see true)]
if truth be told used when expressing a surprising or unwelcome idea

Harold Camping ….and people like him cross the line .. By spreading rumors and instigating destruction to families by telling them FALSE FAKE UNTRUE INFORMATION FROM THE BIBLE ! ! ! !

IMO..I think he this Harold guy ..should be charged with at least a misdemeanor .. Yeah this don’t look good for Christians ! !

If they really only realized how stupid it makes them look.. Geesh just goes to show you how low or how far someone will go to make others believe in pipe dreams.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 06:25 AM
link   
reply to post by LiveEquation
 



Do you realize you did not use bible records/verses to answer all my questions?


There are verses given for all Qs except #3 which cannot be linked to a verse because there is no mention of Jesus or John having a "hallucination" anywhere in scripture.

And I've shown you now twice, Jesus said there would be some standing before Him who would "See" Him come in His kingdom. In Revelation Jesus tells John to write down what he "sees" in the upcoming vision and send it to 7 specific churches in Turkey and throughout Revelation John repeatedly states "then I saw.." or a variation of it indicating HE SAW, just as Christ said would happen.

Christ never said it would happen before all the apostles died, Christ said there would be apostles alive who would "see" it before they died. John certainly did, Peter's most likely did but I cannot prove it with a verse, just that he talks about events during the kingdom.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 09:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by LiveEquation
 



Do you realize you did not use bible records/verses to answer all my questions?


There are verses given for all Qs except #3 which cannot be linked to a verse because there is no mention of Jesus or John having a "hallucination" anywhere in scripture.

And I've shown you now twice, Jesus said there would be some standing before Him who would "See" Him come in His kingdom. In Revelation Jesus tells John to write down what he "sees" in the upcoming vision and send it to 7 specific churches in Turkey and throughout Revelation John repeatedly states "then I saw.." or a variation of it indicating HE SAW, just as Christ said would happen.

Christ never said it would happen before all the apostles died, Christ said there would be apostles alive who would "see" it before they died. John certainly did, Peter's most likely did but I cannot prove it with a verse, just that he talks about events during the kingdom.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

by NOTurTypical
"There are verses given for all Qs except #3 which cannot be linked to a verse because there is no mention of Jesus or John having a "hallucination" anywhere in scripture."


By NSG52 : Says..."Christ, Jesus, the holy son does don't speak in this Bible book by him self no where in the book has he givven any direct words .. it has all been written down BY someone else's WORDS as they claim Jesus said! ! ! "

By NSG52 : "What Jesus could not write himself ????? Only the Apostles and Discipes have heard (Jesus talk or tell or say these certain words yer talking about?)....Yeah right ok."

By NSG52: DO YOI REALIZE >>> "There is no factual evidence that what you are saying in reference to these things in the Bible >>>to be the ABSOLUTE TRUTH>Do you get what im Saying?>>>>>>>Link



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 11:13 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Please be honest, I asked you not to give me interpretations but actual verses of


John said he was transported in the spirit to see Daniel's 70th week...


I need an actual verse in Revelations that has the word Daniel and 70th/seventieth week to support your claim and not an interpretation. Please write it down for all of us to see.

Interpretations are not trustworthy. You talk of the Lord's day or Sabbath as if you think you know when it is. If we go by the account of creation in Genesis...god rested three days after a new moon or full moon (which ever you choose). Based on this account of creation, a sabbath should be three days after new/full moon. How many new/full moons have happened since creation? But then we can be like Harold and say a day in genesis = 1,000 days, which is not mentioned in genesis. Would it be ok to say the Hebrews were in the desert 40yearsx366days*1000days?


But please answer the Revelations question first.

After you give me the verse we will go on to talk about how reliable your interpretation of John 'seeing' the destruction of the temple is.



edit on 23-5-2011 by LiveEquation because: reliable



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 11:43 AM
link   

Originally posted by LiveEquation
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Please be honest, I asked you not to give me interpretations but actual verses of


John said he was transported in the spirit to see Daniel's 70th week...


I need an actual verse in Revelations that has the word Daniel and 70th/seventieth week to support your claim and not an interpretation. Please write it down for all of us to see.


I'm not being "dishonest", my sincere apologies, I assumed you'd know that the term "Daniel's 70th week" isn't in the Bible, it's an English Theological term used for the last week of Daniels "70 week" prophecy from Gabriel. Or the common name for Daniel's 70th week is the "7-year Tribulation". I apologize for assuming you knew the 70th week is a term that is commonly used for the tribulation. And I did link the verse that describes John saying he was in the "spirit" and the rest of Revelation is John's written account of what he saw when "in the spirit".

I'll post it yet again:




"On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, which said: “Write on a scroll what YOU SEE and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”




REVELATION .....chapter.......1........ verses..... 10....... and.......... 11.



Interpretations are not trustworthy.


Without interpretations no one who didn't speak ancient Hebrew would understand the Old Testament, and no one who did not speak Koine Greek would understand the New Testament. Interpretations are quite useful actually.



You talk of the Lord's day or Sabbath as if you think you know when it is. If we go by the account of creation in Genesis...god rested three days after a new moon or full moon (which ever you choose). Based on this account of creation, a sabbath should be three days after new/full moon. How many new/full moons have happened since creation? But then we can be like Harold and say a day in genesis = 1,000 days, which is not mentioned in genesis. Would it be ok to say the Hebrews were in the desert 40yearsx366days*1000days?


I've already explained this, apparently you missed it. When the OT prophets spoke of "The Day of the Lord" or "The Lord's Day" it had nothing whatsoever to do with Sunday or the Sabbath. The term "The Lord's Day" for the first day of the week wasn't even a term at that time. When Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Amos spoke of "The Day of the Lord" it was the day the Lords would return to judge the Earth, or "Armageddon". It refers to the exact day 1,260 days after the abomination of desolation when Christ returns to the Earth, and it refers to the 1,000 year reighn of the Messiah. His return begins the "day", but it's end is 1,000 years after that.

The prophets speak of the judgements that will occur when the Lord returns specifically, and they prophesy about events and life during the tranquility of the millineal reign. "The Lord's Day" or "Day of the Lord" in the OT and in Revelation has nothing to do with the term we use today for the first day of the week/Sunday.


But please answer the Revelations question first.


I have, a few times now. Jesus said not all the apostles would die before they saw His kingdom arrive. John did see it before he died, it was in the vision in 95 A.D. that led to the Book of Revelation being written.


After you give me the verse we will go on to talk about how reliable your interpretation of John 'seeing' the destruction of the temple is.


"Destruction of the Temple"?? I never said anything about the "destruction of the temple".




edit on 23-5-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 02:55 PM
link   
reply to post by LiveEquation
 



What interpretation of the bible has proven true today?

What interpretation of the bible is truth, a singularity that remains the same through all time?


That depends on what you're looking for... If you're trying to predict something using the bible you will fail over and over...

If you're looking for Truth as you say, there are many truths which one are you looking for? Perhaps i can assist you in your search...

What "singularity" is truth which remains the same through all time? Thats easy my friend...

Love...

Its the only abosolute, and the source of all truth




posted on May, 23 2011 @ 03:01 PM
link   
In light of today's events or tomorrow's.... it is not credible. It has good and bad teachings/parables. No matter, as neither make it any more true than other books.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 03:20 PM
link   
This was a great program on the NOVA channel:

The Bibles Buried Secrets
www.pbs.org...

If there is a secret code encrypted anywhere for future generations to find regarding
the origins of man, why wouldn't this be in the Bible? What a perfect place to hide it.

I would suggest some of you check out the PBS Special before you make fools out of yourselves and prove your ignorance by calling the Book a complete work of fiction
or a fairy tale.



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 05:43 PM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I am amazed that after you acknowledge that Daniel's 70th week is not in Revelations you make another sensational claim that "the Lord's Day" means John was in the future and i am assuming after having left his body behind...in some cave

Let's see what Revelations says:



Revelations 2v13
“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.


As far as history is concerned Antipas died eons ago among them. I don't know what Lord's day is this that you are talking about.


Revelations 3v1
And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,


History tells us that the place used to exist but it is no more. The skeleton of the church still remains as archeological evidence.

and you are telling me all these events happened on the Lord's day sometime in the future?



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 08:45 PM
link   
reply to post by LiveEquation
 


Whatever helps you sleep at night bud
And for the record, atheism has killed 10X's the amount Catholics have. ( I say Catholics cause Christians don't kill people without cause....well, maybe not Calvinists!)

You seem to be confident that the Bible is destroying the world, I hope you have the same amount of confidence when you stand before God...



posted on May, 23 2011 @ 09:03 PM
link   
In light of today's events how credible is Christianity and its bible?

Well... let's just ask God now, at least he's still here.

lol

Seriously though, I compare Christianity and its bible to white lies such as a Giraffe is a Tyrannosaurus rex and an Elephant is a Triceratops in comparrison.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 12:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by KJV1611
reply to post by LiveEquation
 


Whatever helps you sleep at night bud
And for the record, atheism has killed 10X's the amount Catholics have. ( I say Catholics cause Christians don't kill people without cause....well, maybe not Calvinists!)


Now what kind of fruits does the bible produce? Christians that discredit other Christians...

Now how credible is the bible? zip! You Christians interpret the bible to whatever suits you. .You are here now bashing other Christians..


... I hope you have the same amount of confidence when you stand before God...

Yeah i will...if he exists i will spit on him...and jump into whatever hell exists before he fully comprehends what just happened ( I apologize for my rude comment but you Christians spit on us everyday with your interpretations that are not based on truth )

I don't really care about living forever...The Jesus you believe in defines eternal life as knowledge of truth (john 17v3) i would rather know truth than live forever worshiping a deity who sometimes gives laws that are not truthfully edifying...I believe you know what verse i am talking about...


Ezekiel 20:25-26
Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live; And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the LORD.



edit on 24-5-2011 by LiveEquation because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-5-2011 by LiveEquation because: not



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 01:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by LiveEquation
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I am amazed that after you acknowledge that Daniel's 70th week is not in Revelations you make another sensational claim that "the Lord's Day" means John was in the future and i am assuming after having left his body behind...in some cave

Let's see what Revelations says:



Revelations 2v13
“I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.


As far as history is concerned Antipas died eons ago among them. I don't know what Lord's day is this that you are talking about.


Revelations 3v1
And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,


History tells us that the place used to exist but it is no more. The skeleton of the church still remains as archeological evidence.

and you are telling me all these events happened on the Lord's day sometime in the future?


Um, in Revelation 1:19 Jesus tells John to:

"19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Revelation 2&3 are 7 letters to seven churches that were in Turkey at the time of John's vision. Interestingly enough, the order of the churches is also the order of the different periods of church history from the apostolic church to the end time church. Anyways, chapter 1 is what Jesus tells John to write:

"The things which thou hast seen",

Chapters 2 & 3 is what Jesus tells John to write :

"the things which are"

And chapter 4 verse 1 begins the prophecies about Daniel's 70th week starting with the rapture. (Errr, forgive me, scratch "Daniel's 70th week") 4:1 begins the prophetic visions of what transpires on Earth and in the throne room in heaven during the 7 year Tribulation.

This is what Jesus calls "The things which shall be hereafter" in verse 19.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 01:35 AM
link   
I'm sure you yourself couldn't care less, but for all the others reading this discourse, IMHO the greatest commentary on the Book of Revelations is Chuck Missler's

Video 1, (Session 01/Introduction) begins HERE.

Outstanding commentary.



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 02:06 AM
link   

Originally posted by KJV1611

Whatever helps you sleep at night bud
And for the record, atheism has killed 10X's the amount Catholics have. ( I say Catholics cause Christians don't kill people without cause....well, maybe not Calvinists!)

Hey ho, here we go again, with your insane bigotry!
I thought you are a Calvinist! You saying you're not?
Catholics don't kill people. (Some did, centuries back). So did Protestants. It was all a political battle disguised as a religious one, but because I am talking about things that happened in Europe, it's probably unknown to you.

Your bigotry makes me mad, in both the American and the actual sense of the word...



posted on May, 24 2011 @ 09:54 AM
link   
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


So you acknowledge that when John said he was in the lord's day he was not referring to your so called Daniel's 70th week(not found in revelations) ?

Revelations 9v17, clearly says that the things that John saw were in a vision. There is nowhere in revelations that John says he had an out of body experience...

I always give you verses that are clear and do not need interpretation. John did not see Jesus coming in his kingdom, he had a vision of it! Do not confuse the two.

Below is also another description of Jesus coming in his kingdom


Matthew 24v29-35
Immediately after the distress of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


There it is now, Jesus says Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Now don't tell me that Jesus was referring to a different generation than his disciples generation. And please don't tell me that when Jesus said until all these things have happened Jesus was referring to John having visions of these events
edit on 24-5-2011 by LiveEquation because: bold

edit on 24-5-2011 by LiveEquation because: color



new topics

top topics



 
3
<< 1  2    4  5 >>

log in

join