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Religious people; You crave a dictatorship; My reasons for Atheism.

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posted on May, 21 2011 @ 02:43 PM
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Firstly, Atheism is not (always) a faith.

Personally, I havn't put faith in anything, i just disbelieve certain men's theory of the unknown. I could do the same for any other theory - religious or not. The difference being, i don't have a name for my lack of belief in Unicorns; i'm not an Aunicornist.

Atheism CAN be a positive claim, but it's not a position i assume, i'm not Gnostic, i'm an Agnostic Atheist. I don't even claim God can't be proven, only that so far, i have found insufficient evidence or reason to warrant a belief in such a theory.

And if there is a judgement day, i would hope that a benevolent God would state:-

"you were honest with your own judgements, you needed the evidence, perhaps existence wasn't enough, i can understand your doubt, you were a moral person, you were kind person- i won't send you to an ETERNITY IN HELL)

Such a proposition is posed in the "Atheist's Wager" but the Atheist, perhaps, is wrong to assume that this God is merciful. So perhaps a fail wager.........

So to end in a couple of questions:-

if God exists and is not a benevolent (kind) being - Would you like such a being? Would you want to submit to such a dictatorship?

A judgement day without any chance of a hearing? The punishment; an eternity of pain?

Certainly, if you did believe and you did like such a being - it would save you from death - But is that a moral position to stand by?


Peace,

A&A
edit on 21/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

edit on 21/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 21 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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I'll wholeheartedly agree with you as far as the dangers and weirdness often associated with organized religion, but, before the thread takes off like a runaway horse (as good topics like this always do), may we define some terms beforehand?

Agnosticism and atheism are not at all the same thing. Atheists have a belief system- the core belief is in the NON-existence of god. Atheists are often just as dogmatic and irrational as any religion. Agnostics with-hold making any firm opinions on the matter- the agnostic holds that such things are inherently unknowable in this life.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you're mostly just anti-dogma. And I agree with you. Belief or non-belief in god is not dogmatic by necessity- many people do have spiritual beliefs, or atheist beliefs, without subscribing to the dogma and unchallengable tenets of an organized system.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:00 PM
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Heaven and hell is a state of mind, the story that plays out is the one you choose, im not Christian, but i believe in a grand architect, what ever that is..
maybe its just all our own thoughts creating this, and we as the collective could be called god..
i dont journey to find god any more, i journey to find myself
the end point is not relevant, as in my view there is no beginning or end, there just is.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


This seems more on the side of judging I'm not religious either but I don't bash those who are



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Please stop your nonsensical and otherwise greedy Proselytizing.

Proselytizing is the act of attempting to convert people to another opinion and, particularly, another religion, in this case, Atheism. I do not wish to convert to your religion. Or any other.

Now go away before I fart in your general direction.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


"you were honest with your own judgements, you needed the evidence, perhaps existence wasn't enough, i can understand your doubt, you were a moral person, you were kind person- i won't send you to an ETERNITY IN HELL)

Ugh. I hear this so many times. God doesn't send you to Hell, YOU SEND YOURSELF.

Imagine a poor, homeless kid on the street. He's got nothing, barely able to survive on his own.
A wealthy man comes up and offers him everything.. food, shelter, an education, a family.
Does this kid accept?
LOGICALLY, he should. If he rejects the man? He'll spend the rest of his days on the streets.

Mankind is this kid, and God is this wealthy man. He's brought a gift for us, and should we choose to reject him, THAT'S OUR CHOICE.


if God exists and is not a benevolent (kind) being - Would you like such a being? Would you want to submit to such a dictatorship?

Sounds benevolent to me according to my analogy. So you see, this question is based on your opinion, I couldn't answer it unless I went under the assumption your basis for asking it was my own opinion - that God isn't benevolent.


A judgement day without any chance of a hearing? The punishment; an eternity of pain?

What would you say during your hearing? and who says there WON'T be a hearing? We all must stand before the throne of judgement. The only difference is, Christians have an intercessor. We have Jesus who says, "Not Guilty". The thing is, we're ALL guilty of Sin, no matter how much you say you're a 'good' person, it doesn't mean you are. People tell me I'm a good person, even before I believed in God, but that doesn't mean I was sinless.

Anyone who claims to be sinless is lying and possibly selling something.


Certainly, if you did believe and you did like such a being - it would save you from death - But is that a moral position to stand by?

Yes? Why is it not? Where do you base morality from? Certainly not God, or do you?
edit on 21-5-2011 by Lionhearte because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-5-2011 by Lionhearte because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 

if God exists and is not a benevolent (kind) being - Would you like such a being? Would you want to submit to such a dictatorship?

A judgement day without any chance of a hearing? The punishment; an eternity of pain?

Certainly, if you did believe and you did like such a being - it would save you from death - But is that a moral position to stand by?


My views are unorthodox, but:
1) No dictatorship, just a gift of eternal life with no pain or suffering (as per approved documentation).

2) I do not find a biblical basis for an eternity of pain for those who don't accept said gift - there is eternal life, or there is death. And death comes to us all:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of god is life eternal in christ Jesus our lord


For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have life everlasting


Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.


3) Not really any dispute for me over a moral position here or not. We are all subject to death, but are offered a way out - accepting the sacrifice of another as our own to satisfy the debt (death) of sin, then walking as he walked (uprightly in love), with access to eternal life as a result.

Of course, there will be some dispute here on various angles, but this is what I come to. As regards god being a tyrant, and so forth - are we not to be considered tyrants to pets we rule over, ants we step on without even noticing, animals we experiment on, etc. - yet do we care about they option to be 'subject' to us? Analogues are quite present, and simply boils down to "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" to be completely honest. And how does one judge the moral motivation of something completely transcendent and alien in the first place?

I also allow for some additional grey area dealing with how one handles the 'law of god' as written on their heart, as deals with those who either have never heard the message, or have never been given an honest representation of the message to decide accordingly:

Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.


I'll go ahead and say it now, I honestly believe an "atheist" might make it to eternal life, if they walk uprightly according to the "law of god" as written on their heart. I've been well aware of some atheists who live more uprightly than some christians.

Be well, friend.
edit on 5/21/2011 by Praetorius because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by TDawgRex
 


I'm just asking questions and acknowledging what we currently know and understand. I would never ask anyone to change their beliefs, only to consider another point of view.

Please, i'm not trying to preach. I stated this is NOT an attack, i asked for civility in the OP. I don't want anyone to convert, just to think and discuss.
edit on 21/5/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 



Ugh. I hear this so many times. God doesn't send you to Hell, YOU SEND YOURSELF.


How? by not abiding by the objective "rules and regulations" set by man on Earth that guarantees access to the afterlife?

AGAIN, Just questions, not an attack.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Lionhearte
 



Ugh. I hear this so many times. God doesn't send you to Hell, YOU SEND YOURSELF.


How? by not abiding by the objective "rules and regulations" set by man on Earth that guarantees access to the afterlife?

AGAIN, Just questions, not an attack.

No, no one can follow those rules. It's impossible, save for Jesus. Which is why we were given the chance to accept him and his gift, to be allowed access into Heaven.

Works do not get you into Heaven, which is something people have a hard time understand. I don't like Religion - I HATE it - the Doctrines taught by some Churches are ridiculous, it's that whole "You have to do this, to get that" attitude. Bible just teaches to believe in Jesus for the gift, for if we don't believe in him, how could we receive it?



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 



No, no one can follow those rules. It's impossible, save for Jesus. Which is why we were given the chance to accept him and his gift, to be allowed access into Heaven.


Yes, i'm well aware that you BELIEVE that one human sacrifice absolves an entire species of sin - and you're perfectly welcome to that BELIEF - I will challenge it though.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Lionhearte
 



No, no one can follow those rules. It's impossible, save for Jesus. Which is why we were given the chance to accept him and his gift, to be allowed access into Heaven.


Yes, i'm well aware that you BELIEVE that one human sacrifice absolves an entire species of sin - and you're perfectly welcome to that BELIEF - I will challenge it though.


It wasn't just a Human sacrifice, it was God in the flesh fulfilling the law. The law was fulfilled by Him as a man, so accepting him into your heart is the only way to get into Heaven. Yea, it sounds magical, but magic is a relative term based on perspective. Bring a lighter back to the 1st century and people will believe you're a wizard.

And please, by all means continue. Honestly, if you had any questions regarding it, anything at all, I won't mind answering them with my opinion or what the Bible says.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


I apoligize for the knee jerk reaction. It's just that it has been my experiance that Atheists talk down to those that disagree with them. A position like that always annoys me.

A political debate is always a learning experiance as long as it is kept civil. But in matters of faith, a lot of minds stay closed and many times hostilities ensue. I trust others to keep their faith to themselves. As I (usually) keep mine.

I am all about coversation regarding beliefs. I tend to agree with Sprocket2Cog. It the journey and how we live it that makes a life a adventure. We are all born to die, it is what we do in the meantime that matters.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by Praetorius

Of course, there will be some dispute here on various angles, but this is what I come to. As regards god being a tyrant, and so forth - are we not to be considered tyrants to pets we rule over, ants we step on without even noticing, animals we experiment on, etc. - yet do we care about they option to be 'subject' to us? Analogues are quite present, and simply boils down to "Hath not the potter power over the clay?" to be completely honest. And how does one judge the moral motivation of something completely transcendent and alien in the first place?


I was JUST thinking about this when I was outside, about ants and dogs specifically, then I come in here and BAM.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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not the "religion" I know
which one are you referring to?


And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But ye shall not be so -Luke22
www.biblegateway.com...


edit on 21-5-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



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