It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.


Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.


Family Facing $4 Million in Fines for Selling Bunnies

page: 4
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in


posted on May, 21 2011 @ 09:55 PM
No one person knows all of the law.

Have you ever read or even looked at a Blacks Law Dictionary?

This is by design.

Man, you can cut the naivety with occams razor in here

Constitution someone said?
Anti Federalist papers.... I say and then you can STFU because you apparently haven't a clue...

All professionals are "guided" through their educational process with many taught to focus on one or two aspects of their fields only.... blinders on..... so most of the lawyers are unaware of much of the law as well.
Most teachers do not know much beyond what they teach as its kinda programmed in there.....

Over specialization ensures that only a few have the big picture....didnt anyone else read Asimov? WTF!

Go now, out of my sight and do not come back until you have googled yer little hearts out for the words SOVEREIGNTY, FREEMAN and ANTI FEDERALIST PAPERS as we will get no where if we carry on this way...

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 09:58 PM
reply to post by OverMan

.....didnt anyone else read Asimov?

YES! but it has been thirty years.... I CAN"T BE THAT OLD

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 09:59 PM
reply to post by OverMan

Have you ever run a business? I have.

Were you aware of the regulations covering your business? I am.

Of course there are a myriad of laws that are likely constructed to help 'the big guys'. No one has said anything different.

What has been stated is these guys created their own problem.

To conflate pointing out that they were very much in the wrong is NOT to imply these laws are reasonable. Those are two different discussions. This thread is about the speificis of this case, not the notion that regulatory laws are unfair to the little guy (a point no one has argued against)
edit on 21-5-2011 by incrediblelousminds because: (no reason given)

edit on 21-5-2011 by incrediblelousminds because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 10:03 PM

Originally posted by getreadyalready
I don't see how the USDA has any authority if nothing crossed state lines?

I am also pretty certain the Constitution of the US has provisions for excessive taxation.

I am also pretty certain that the rule they cite must have other caveats, because there are commercial breeders that sell a lot more than $500 worth of rabbits, so the line quoted can't be the entire rule.

In my opinion, it is going to be some stupid little nazi thing like this that ends our US government. They will eventually pull this crap on just the right family, with just the right connections, and all of their perceived authority will go out the window and the people will rise up united. It is only a matter of time before their intimidation tactics don't work, and their bunnies come home to roost!

Dont forget local property laws, there is nothing out there that I know of, at least not in my state anyway that says you cannot sell from your property, second, if they were actually able to sell at least a minimum of 1000 dollars worth, that property according to the USDA is considered a family farm as far as I know.

As defined by USDA regulations related to farm loan programs (e.g. those administered by the Farm Service Agency), a family farm is a farm that which:

1. produces agricultural commodities for sale in such quantities so as to be recognized in the community as a farm and not a rural residence;
2. produces enough income (including off-farm employment) to pay family and farm operating expenses, pay debts, and maintain the property;
3. is managed by the operator;
4. has a substantial amount of labor provided by the operator and the operator’s family; and
5. may use seasonal labor during peak periods and a reasonable amount of full-time hired labor.

The only thing I can think of is that the "bunnies" were not registered or "tagged." Maybe they lacked a permit of sorts?
lesseee according to the article lol
Read the regulation and decide for yourselves
edit on 21-5-2011 by Nephalim because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 10:17 PM
reply to post by Lostinthedarkness

The day of the small start up farmer finding a niche market is rapidly closing.

The day has already come.

The FDA Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA) was signed into law by President Obama on January 4th, 2011. It aims to ensure the U.S. food supply is safe by shifting the focus of federal regulators from responding to contamination to preventing it....

This is the FDA web page with links to the full text of the new law and other junk about the law including workshops, public meetings and public hearings.

A word to the wise from some truckers who attended a government sponsored work shop. The government WILL collect names address and other info and will use that info AGAINST YOU! You can expect them to come knocking on the door a short time after the workshop so DO NOT pay by check or credit card or give any info out!

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 10:50 PM
reply to post by Lostinthedarkness

I just took a longer look at the fda site and came across this:

Frequently Asked Questions

Produce Safety Rule

PS.1 How will FDA take into account the diversity in farms, growing practices, commodities, etc. in conducting the produce safety rulemaking that is required by the new law?
FDA recognizes the tremendous diversity in this industry, in size of operations, growing practices, growing conditions, and more. The regulations must provide for flexibility.

PS.2 What can farmers do right now to prepare for upcoming produce safety regulation and how will FDA help farmers understand and comply with the upcoming regulation?
While it will be some time before a regulation outlining produce safety requirements will be implemented, farmers can begin assessing their operations in terms of food safety right now. Another thing farmers can do is review FDA’s “Guidance for Industry: Guide to Minimize Microbial Food Safety Hazards for Fresh Fruits and Vegetables3” (also known as the “Good Agricultural Practices” or “GAPs” guide).

At FDA, we have found that a very important key to compliance in any regulation, and what we think needs to happen first in implementing produce safety standards, is education and outreach. There will be considerable effort to develop standardized training programs to help farmers reach the standards FDA will be looking for in the growing and harvesting of produce.

PS.3 How will farmers get this information?
There will be considerable outreach to help producers implement upcoming produce safety standards. FDA is actively working with USDA’s Agricultural Marketing Service and Cornell University in a cooperative effort called the Produce Safety Alliance that you’ll be hearing a lot about in the months to come. We will consider collaboration and input from our stakeholders, including academia, industry, and consumers, as an integral part of the success in putting together a meaningful education campaign in this area and ensuring understanding of and compliance with the regulations that will be issued....

The Good Agricultural Practices actually come from The United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization

Way back when the World Trade Organization set up a committee with the United Nations to write the Good Agricultural Practices and Good Farming Practices. As soon as the first draft guide was completed in 2005 we started seeing bills in Congress designed to implement the WTO/UN written regs.

WTO OIE FAO Good Agricultural Practices Video:

And yes that is the actual title (my computer can not support video so I did not see it)

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 11:40 PM
I would like to think that with a decent lawyer they could beat this rather quickly...But unfortunately I lost faith in our justice system a long time ago. There are so many stupid laws still on the books that it is ridiculous. I'm sure many of you have been to one of the websites that lists these laws by state. I know Texas has some really pointless laws.

This is just sickening. Especially when you look at how much money they actually made from selling the bunnies. They say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, yet there are laws such as the one they are charged with breaking that no one has ever heard of. Even their lawyer said that he could find no law they had broken. Pretty soon almost everything will be illegal. Grrrrr. It makes me mad.

posted on May, 21 2011 @ 11:50 PM
reply to post by ArMaP

+1000 you are correct.
It stinks very bad BUT they are going to do it because that is what they do. Divide and Conquer!

Peace to all.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 12:05 AM

Originally posted by incrediblelousminds

Originally posted by crimvelvet

The AVERAGE age of US farmers is over 55. That means many are Vietnam vets.

I'm sorry, but what?

Your math does not add. Might as well say many are hippies, or rednecks, or internet bloggers.

Okay I will be more specific

US Environmental Protection Agency

...As the U.S. farm population has dwindled, the average age of farmers continues to rise. In fact, about forty percent of the farmers in this country are 55 years old or older (Bureau of Labor Statistics). The graying of the farm population has led to concerns about the long-term health of family farms as an American institution.....

9.2 million men served in the military between 1964 and 1975. There were about 20 million males between the ages of 55 and 74 in the year 2000. YOU can do the rest of the math....

The EPA goes on to say

...It has been estimated that living expenses for the average farm family exceed $47,000 per year. Clearly, many farms that meet the U.S. Census' definition would not produce sufficient income to meet farm family living expenses. In fact, fewer than 1 in 4 of the farms in this country produce gross revenues in excess of $50,000.

Going to other sources like the USDA Ag survey you find over fifty percent of farms lose an average of $15,00 a year. A different report states 90% of farm family income comes from sources other than farming.

Essentially 25% of the worlds grain supply is raised by people who have to work another job to support their farm and continue to put food in your mouth!

It seem that the USA and the rest of the world is about to find out just how valuable US farmers really are!!!


Grain Prices Surge as U.S. Cuts Crop Estimates, Signal Tighter Food Supply

...Corn and soybeans jumped to the highest prices since July 2008 and wheat rose after the government cut forecasts for U.S. inventories, signaling tighter food supply as demand increases and adverse weather hurts crops.

Production of corn in the U.S., the world’s largest grain exporter, dropped 4.9 percent last year and will leave supply before the 2011 harvest at the lowest in 15 years, the Department of Agriculture said today. The agency also cut its estimate of the soybean crop by 1.4 percent and said domestic wheat inventories will be 16 percent less than a year earlier....

“There’s no room for error anymore” on farms around the world, said Dan Basse, the president of AgResouce Co., a commodity consultant in Chicago. “With any weather issues, we’re going to make new all-time highs in corn and soybeans, and to a lesser degree, wheat futures.”

“The pressure is acute, in terms of planting fence row to fence row, and really getting the message out to farmers that they need to be planting up their front yards,” Basse said today on a conference call with reporters and analysts. .....

And do you know what the response from some farmers is????



...The consolidation and concentration in agriculture has been ongoing since the founding of this country....

This has happened in every segment of farming. “Get big, or get out” has been the mantra of agencies and corporations for half a century. In 1980, there were over 117,000 dairy farms in the US. Today there are less than 65,000. In 1980, we had 666,000 hog farms. Today there are 71,000. In 1980, there were 1.9 million cattle ranchers. Today there are 900,000. The same applies to the growing of produce and grains. There are no statistics specifically geared toward diversified agriculture, but the last ag census showed that farms with less than $10,000 per year income grew in number while the others all fell. According to USDA statistics, we now have a total of less than one percent of the entire population engaged in agriculture.

Instead, we have increased our imports in produce to a phenomenal 68% in fruits and vegetables. Less than 1% of these are inspected by the agencies charged with “keeping” our food safe....

When less than 1% of the population is engaged in feeding the entire population and those being fed don’t actively, and positively support the one percent, then the 99% should be happy when they are left to feed themselves....When Marie Antoinette was told that the peasants were threatening revolt because they had no bread, she said, “Let them eat cake.”

When we are faced with rampant hunger because of the regulatory, financial, trade and foreign policies of the past 100 or so years, those of us who have been crying from the roof tops for people to take an interest in what really sustains them may be very well justified in saying, “Let them eat grass.” Remember, No Farmers, No Food.

Doreen Hannes

I do not know about Doreen and others but I for one am NOT going to jail or paying a large fine for the privilage of putting food in your mouth. As of 2012 I will not raise anything except food that goes into my family's mouth.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 12:06 AM
"letters from the government" always carry a rather ominous tone. If the family gets a hold of an actual person working with the FDA, they can likely settle the issue for a minor fine (they were in the wrong for not having a license) and getting a license.

The feds will never get $90,000 in fines out of a household that likely does this to support their cost of living. I didn't notice where in Missouri they were - but a lot of the suburban/rural hybrid areas have some pretty crazy underground economies that elude the fed. Economic crisis? Some of these people manage to put a pool in their back yard while living below poverty income. I helped a family back near my home town move people (they would often volunteer to help people move since they had a truck and trailer) - it was absolutely insane what some of these people have in their homes - and kind of cool what some people didn't want to bring with them and let us have.

And $4M? Please. You couldn't get that out of the family even if you sold their home and chopped them up for black market organ sales and forced the children into prostitution for the rest of their life. And "the fed" knows it.

They just like to quote big, unreasonable numbers to get people's adrenaline to spike.

The whole thing will likely be resolved for less than $500.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 12:26 AM
reply to post by burntheships

The law is the law that is fair enough. They broke the law and must be punished! The real issue and the problem here is the severity of the penalty. That is way to excessive! There should be a penalty imposed on them but it should be representative of the indiscretion only! Up to 4 mill or even 90,000 is way too excessive! The fine should be calculated around the tax payable figure which would be in the hundreds only! That would be fair for both sides!

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 12:44 AM
reply to post by crimvelvet

"Land of the free, home of the brave" has now turned into Lands never free, The Brave are asleep.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:10 AM

Almost nine months after a Missouri dairy was ordered to stop selling cheese made from raw milk,

I know of at least one death from unpasteurized milk and so unless this is your cow or you know the farmer, people should be protected from danger to a reasonable (but not ridiculous) extent against possible harm as the result of a "merchant."

If they don’t pay that fine, they could face additional fines of almost $4 million.

Your thread says they are facing $4 million in fines but that is only if they don't pay the original amount. By this reasoning I could say I am facing a google in IRS fines - but that is only if I never pay them and live forever.

Most of these rabbits go to factories and labs and there should be some control on how many of them can be bred and sold for experiments and boa constrictor snacks. Like a puppy mill but without a license.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:39 AM
reply to post by phatpackage

The law is the law that is fair enough. They broke the law and must be punished! The real issue and the problem here is the severity of the penalty....

Unfortunately this type of heavy handed harassment is all too common and will only get worse until it back fires in an incident that makes Waco and Ruby Ridge look like a walk in the park.

I have often wondered if the backing farmers into a corner is intentional and they WANT to spark an armed revolution.

Henshaw Incident

...At 5:00 AM on September 12, 2006, Cindi and Danny Henshaw were awakened by their local Virginia game warden, who arrested Danny on an apparently trumped up Class 2 Misdemeanor charge and took him from his Willis River Hunting preserve for supposedly, “operating a mammalian hunting enclosure without a permit.” As soon as Danny was out of the way, 9 SUV’s and pickups, 4 wheelers, and numerous heavily armed agents entered the Henshaw property with a Quarantine Order and began shooting Henshaw’s hogs and sheep with 12 gauge shotguns. Some 270 shell casings were also found....

....Danny was released from custody in 2 hours and allowed to return to the farm where he and Cindi were controlled around the clock by armed guards from September 12th through September 22nd....

There was NO evidence of disease and NO LAW BROKEN!!!! (see links to original article)

A second case of US government abuse:

From the book review of MAD SHEEP by Linda Faillace

Linda Faillace's Mad Sheep is a tragic tale—tragic for the lives of those poor sheep, tragic for the shattered hopes of a family, but above all tragic for America...

In the mid-1990s Linda and Larry Faillace had a dream: they wanted to breed sheep and make cheese on their Vermont farm. They did the research, worked hard, followed the rules, and, after years of preparation and patience, built a successful, entrepreneurial business.

But just like that, their dream turned into a nightmare. The U.S. Department of Agriculture told them that the sheep they imported from Europe (with the USDA's seal of approval) carried a disease similar to the dreaded BSE or "mad cow disease." After months of surveillance--which included USDA agents spying from nearby mountaintops and comically hiding behind bushes--armed federal agents seized their flock. The animals were destroyed, the Faillace's lives turned upside down, all so that the USDA could show the U.S. meat industries that they were protecting America from mad cow disease--and by extension, easing fears among an increasingly wary population of meat-eaters.

Mad Sheep is the account of one family's struggle against a bullying and corrupt government agency that long ago abandoned the family farmer to serve the needs of corporate agriculture and the industrialization of our food supply....

And this is where it gets REALLY REALLY interesting

From a Summary of "Mad Sheep" by Linda Faillace

...Linda heard that there was more information at the USDA and used the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) to request data from the USDA. Two weeks after the request, the FOIA revealed four hundred negative results on sheep, including additional negative tests on the four sheep that Rubenstein and the USDA claimed were positive!

Again a trumped up case of "disease" was used to go after an innocent family.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:18 AM
why bother post this stuff

no ones going to do anything about it

i say its time someone grow some balls and fight back

but we all know that will never happen

and even if it did, the person would be vilified by the media instead of hailed as the hero the person would be

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:29 AM
Why don't we just start beheading anyone who breaks the law?

Oh right, then the government wouldn't be able to make them pay fines until the day they die.

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:36 AM
This 'investigator' may never have lost a case . . . which is hard to believe since investigators don't handle cases: only attorneys handle cases.

But whatever. What really matters is 'what is the average judgment awarded is in these cases that go to trial?' If the fine is 'up to $4,000,000' then it sounds like these aren't statutory damages (with a set amount mandated by law). The court sets the judgment amount, up to the maximum limit.

I would be surprised if this is the kind of issue that leads a local federal court takes a couple's home, or imposes anything even remotely close to the USDA's settlement 'offer' . . . let alone the statutory limit.

My advice would be for the family to make a reasonable counter-offer to the USDA immediately, $5,000, maybe $10,000 if they can afford it, and then just largely handle the matter themselves. This isn't the kind of case you sink your money into retainer fees. You won't win this case, very unlikely anyway. But . . . If the court sees the family has made reasonable attempts to settle out of court, they can get off the hook for compensating the gov't for attorney fees, which I'm guessing is the only statutorily mandated damage they really have to worry about. Then hope for the court to set a reasonable damages award, with a reasonable schedule. Best you can do.

If the family loses their farm over this, I'll buy everyone who posted in this thread a beer. Just don't see it happening unless it's their own attorneys fees they're covering.

Now if it was Monsanto bringing a claim against a family farm . . . time to pack the bags.

edit on 22-5-2011 by SecretGoldfish because: clarification

edit on 22-5-2011 by SecretGoldfish because: lack-of-coffee induced typos

edit on 22-5-2011 by SecretGoldfish because: (no reason given)

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:49 AM

Originally posted by phatpackage
reply to post by burntheships

The law is the law that is fair enough. They broke the law and must be punished! The real issue and the problem here is the severity of the penalty. That is way to excessive! There should be a penalty imposed on them but it should be representative of the indiscretion only! Up to 4 mill or even 90,000 is way too excessive! The fine should be calculated around the tax payable figure which would be in the hundreds only! That would be fair for both sides!

Isn't this what the Germans and all of the other tyrannical governments said in order to justify the murder of innocents?

posted on May, 22 2011 @ 04:01 AM
reply to post by ArMaP

Who is that rule really for? That is not a law, I know this because it restricts freedom and liberty. A law cannot do this, so it must be a corporate rule for an employee...

It is so simple to solve these types of problems. how come this stupid crap doesn't spur more people into educating themselves?


posted on May, 22 2011 @ 04:08 AM
reply to post by somewhereintime

Isn't this what the Germans and all of the other tyrannical governments said in order to justify the murder of innocents?

What has that got to do with anything? The point is they did the wrong thing and more suitable penalty should be applied not this 90,000 & 4 Mill rubbish!

top topics

<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in