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posted on May, 21 2011 @ 08:02 AM
link   
Sorry not read other ppls replies yet but to the op after 10 years im supprised you have not looked into this before but a little word of advice about this forum

There are lots of ppl (i wont mention names) who come on here daily trying to insult anyone who doesnt support the official sstory of 9/11 they will try and convince you it was not an inside job by silly ad hom attacks.

There is also ppl who believe 9/11 was an inside and will try convince you using crazy wacky theories.

Ignore everyone do your own research an reach your own conclusion. Do not be swayed by anybody

Good luck in your quest for the truth mate

Watch loose change american coup and 9/11 press for truth as a starter and 9/11 mysteries




posted on May, 21 2011 @ 09:41 AM
link   
reply to post by impressme
 


Nor are they with your deluaional rants....



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 10:31 AM
link   
Hi there, you will get a lot of advice here..
I believe that you should have access to both sides of the debate..
here is a list of debunking sites that you should read along with the conspiracy sites for balance..


9-11 and the New Pearl Harbor
www.gnn.tv...
New_Pearl_Harbor_Part_I

Journal Of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
www.jod911.com...

Debunking 9/11's E-Mail - Please read the FAQ before sending
debunk911@hotmail.com

911 Myths - Reading between the lines
www.911myths.com...

Screw Loose Change Blog
screwloosechange.blogspot.com...
Debunk 9/11 myths
www.debunk911myths.org...

Internet Detectives Group - Loose Change
internetdetectives.biz...

The 9/11 Debunker Guide
911debunker.livejournal.com...

Screw Loose Change - Not Freakin' Again edition
video.google.ca...

9/11, Steven Jones, and Me
ldspatriot.wordpress.com...

Your Friday Dose of Woo: And now for something completely different...
scienceblogs.com...
your_friday_dose_of_woo_and_now_for_some.php

911 Cult Watch
www.911cultwatch.org.uk...

What I Learned from 9-11 Conspiracy Theories.
www.sawyerhome.net...

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Engine Investigation
www.aerospaceweb.org...

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Ground Effect
www.aerospaceweb.org...

Counterpunch The Physics of 9/11
www.counterpunch.org...

The 9/11 Faith Movement
www.inthesetimes.com...

Attempting to make sense of senseless acts
www.canada.com...

Did the U.S. government plan and execute the 9/11 attacks?
www.pointlesswasteoftime.com...

Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
www.alternet.org...

9/11 Conspiracy Fantasies
www.alternet.org...

All Plots Move Deathward
insidehighered.com...

9/11 Conspiracy Theories Persist, Thrive
abcnews.go.com...

Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away
www.time.com...

Popular Mechanics - 9/11: Debunking The Myths
www.popularmechanics.com...

Fahrenheit 2777
9/11 has generated the mother of all conspiracy theories
www.sciam.com...

The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll
www.nymetro.com...

Facts about 9/11. Not Fantasy
www.geocities.com...

The September 11 X-Files
www.thenation.com...

The 9/11 Conspiracy: A Skeptic’s View
www.crisispapers.org...

Debunking the 9/11 Movement
www.infoshop.org...
Interview with Prof. Jonathan Barnett, an expert in structural and fire protection engineering who was one of the WTC investigators
www.wpi.edu...

Public Eye - Post 9/11 Conspiracism
www.publiceye.org...
Public Eye- 9/11/01 - Repercussions General Conspiracist Views
www.publiceye.org...

Perry Logon's "Delusion Central" (A fun site.)
perrylogan.org...

Viewer Guide to Loose Change (Doc)
www.ccdominoes.com...
9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide (A light hearted look)
www.ccdominoes.com...

Screw Loose Change Video. (Yes, it's finally here)
www.lolloosechange.co.nr...

Loose Trains
loosetrains911.blogspot.com...

Penn & Teller's Bull # - 911 Conspiracy theories
video.google.com...

Salon - The 9/11 deniers
www.salon.com...
SciAm blog about conspiracists' reaction to Shermer
sciam-editor.typepad.com...

In These Times: Nightmares of Reason: Sorting fact from fiction in 9/11 conspiracy theories
www.inthesetimes.com...

The September 11 X-Files
www.thenation.com...

Snopes debunks "Hunt the Boeing", a conspiracy site based on Thierry Meysan’s (and David Ray Griffin’s) claim that a missile, not AA77, hit the Pentagon
www.snopes2.com...

Wikipedia articles on conspiracy theory characteristics
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

It Was Flight 77 - Debunking Alternative Pentagon Crash Theories
www.geocities.com...

and here is a list of peer reviewed papers regarding the towers..

Engineers Explain WTC Collapse
www.architectureweek.com...

Report Ties WTC Collapses to Column Failures
enr.construction.com...

IT WAS THE FIRE, CAUSED THE TWIN TOWER COLLAPSE - icivilengineer.com
www.icivilengineer.com...

Simulation for the collapse of WTC after aeroplane impact - Lu XZ., Yang N., Jiang JJ. Structure Engineer, 66(sup.). 2003, 18-22

Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.
"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.

Brannigan, F.L.
"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

Clifton, Charles G.
Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers
HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

"Construction and Collapse Factors"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Corbett, G.P.
"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Dissecting the Collapses"
Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.
"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.
World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations
(also available on-line)

Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.
"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"
The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.

Glover, N.J.
"Collapse Lessons"
Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Marechaux, T.G.
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"
JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Monahan, B.
"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"
Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.
"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.

National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: Congressional and Legislative Affairs
“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”
Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002.

Pinsker, Lisa, M.
"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"
Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).
The print copy has 3-D images.

Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)
Why the Towers Fell: A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.
NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online)

Post, N.M.
"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"
ENR v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.

Post, N.M.
"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"
ENR v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.

The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.

"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"
ENR v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.

The Towers Lost and Beyond
web.mit.edu...
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Eduardo Kausel, John E. Fernandez, Tomasz Wierzbicki, Liang Xue, Meg Hendry-Brogan, Ahmed F. Ghoniem, Oral Buyukozturk, Franz-Josef Ulm, Yossi Sheffi



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 06:31 PM
link   
I reckon the OP is gonna be pretty messed up after all this being thrown at him, or else he has some kind of super computer brain..



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 07:53 PM
link   
reply to post by bizzy511
 


Nice to see someone new waking up to reality.

Forget all the links and other peoples opinions and blogs, try becoming as familiar as you can with the laws of motion, and conservation of momentum.

That is all you need to understand the towers could not have completely collapsed by the method claimed by supporters of the government version of events. Understand that the NIST report did NOT explain how the WTC towers collapsed. It only attempted to explain how they want you to think the collapse initiated. They want you to think once initiated global collapse was inevitable. Understand the laws of motion, and moment conservation, and you will understand why the NIST report is a whitewash, and the collapses could not have been complete without another energy acting on them that the NIST report did not address.

Temperature of the steel is a detail that is not that important at this point of your discovery, as the collapse time is also not important. It's not something that has no proof for either way, even though it's obvious one hour of fire is not going to cause the complete collapse of a 110 story tower. The important thing is the lack of an explanation as to why the collapses ignored the laws of motion and moment conservation, and Ke wasn't lost due to conversion to other energy needed to crush concrete, break welds and bolts, make noise etc. This energy loss to friction would slow the collapse and it would eventually arrest, no matter how hot the steel was on the few floors that had fires, or even if had taken 10 seconds or an hour to collapse.

Pay particular attention to Newtons 3rd law (of motion) as that is the most relevant to colliding objects. You need to understand 'equal opposite reaction rule' to understand moment conservation correctly.


edit on 5/21/2011 by ANOK because: physics don't lie, only people do



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 08:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by ZeroReady
reply to post by bizzy511
 


Hi Bizzy,
I find it interesting, even taking into account your recent discovery of abovetopsecret, that you've been able to isolate yourself completely from alternative theories of what happened on September 11th, and the motivations of our government in general. You mentioned English is not your first language, and you mentioned your age as 22. I could almost see these two factors as possible explanations, but I'm really just curious: What is your method of completely shutting your self off from news and information so effectively? I feel like at the very least most people have seen the media's responses to various alternative theories, which has familiarized most of the developed world with their existence, even if they don;t support them. I would give anything not to know certain things that I know, but I don't understand how it's possible in this day and age, given that you posses enough knowledge of the internet to a) be enrolled in college b)register an account on a website and c) post to said website, that you've never entertained or even so much as heard of the viewpoint that the US government is not being 100% honest with you? I feel compelled to ask, because I am in college my self, but even school textbooks really aren't bothering to hide the truth about our government and it's purpose anymore. Writing any college history paper about our government should require enough research to see that people lie about things, a lot. Please understand, I mean no offense. I'm asking how you have maintained such innocence through the last few years of information overload, as I am looking to get away from this madness myself, and wherever you are from sounds like the perfect spot for me to move to. Thanks!


im not exactly sure. i lived in st louis for awhile, and recently moved out to california for school. before i moved to california i really didnt care to watch politics, or even the news. i hate to say this, but i guess i really didnt care about what was going on in the world. i've heard other conspiracy theories like about JFK but thats about it.

sept 11 happened when i was like 11, so at that age, all i cared about was playing baseball and hockey. moving out to california was a huge shock. i lived in aften st. louis, which i think is a pretty small place compared to Orange county Ca. to be honest i've never met a hispanic person or asian person until i moved out here. its very diverse in southern Ca.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 08:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by Baguette
I reckon the OP is gonna be pretty messed up after all this being thrown at him, or else he has some kind of super computer brain..


yes thats how i feel. theres a lot of info, and some of it i still find hard to beleive, but most of it is interesting.

i never knew or even heard the term "false flag" before, i didnt even know about building 7.

im not saying that i beleive EVERYTHING, all im saying is that some of the official story makes does not make sense.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 08:17 PM
link   
im not sure if some of the name calling is directed at me or not, but im sorry, im not trying to start arguments.


thanks again to everyone that posted great info.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 08:28 PM
link   
Reply to post by bizzy511
 


oh boy you sure did pick the viper's nest of recent conspiracy theories to start your ats adventure.

there are so many sides and angles to the story.

but to me one of the key issues and mostly overlooked is the suposed terrorist's passport found in the debris.

not only it survived the blast, but happened to land right next to a cop who decided to pick that up and not the other thousands of documents and office papers raining over manhatan...

now really? lol


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 09:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by pccat
Hi there, you will get a lot of advice here..
I believe that you should have access to both sides of the debate..
here is a list of debunking sites that you should read along with the conspiracy sites for balance..


9-11 and the New Pearl Harbor
www.gnn.tv...
New_Pearl_Harbor_Part_I

Journal Of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
www.jod911.com...

Debunking 9/11's E-Mail - Please read the FAQ before sending
debunk911@hotmail.com

911 Myths - Reading between the lines
www.911myths.com...

Screw Loose Change Blog
screwloosechange.blogspot.com...
Debunk 9/11 myths
www.debunk911myths.org...

Internet Detectives Group - Loose Change
internetdetectives.biz...

The 9/11 Debunker Guide
911debunker.livejournal.com...

Screw Loose Change - Not Freakin' Again edition
video.google.ca...

9/11, Steven Jones, and Me
ldspatriot.wordpress.com...

Your Friday Dose of Woo: And now for something completely different...
scienceblogs.com...
your_friday_dose_of_woo_and_now_for_some.php

911 Cult Watch
www.911cultwatch.org.uk...

What I Learned from 9-11 Conspiracy Theories.
www.sawyerhome.net...

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Engine Investigation
www.aerospaceweb.org...

Pentagon & Boeing 757 Ground Effect
www.aerospaceweb.org...

Counterpunch The Physics of 9/11
www.counterpunch.org...

The 9/11 Faith Movement
www.inthesetimes.com...

Attempting to make sense of senseless acts
www.canada.com...

Did the U.S. government plan and execute the 9/11 attacks?
www.pointlesswasteoftime.com...

Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already
www.alternet.org...

9/11 Conspiracy Fantasies
www.alternet.org...

All Plots Move Deathward
insidehighered.com...

9/11 Conspiracy Theories Persist, Thrive
abcnews.go.com...

Why The 9/11 Conspiracies Won't Go Away
www.time.com...

Popular Mechanics - 9/11: Debunking The Myths
www.popularmechanics.com...

Fahrenheit 2777
9/11 has generated the mother of all conspiracy theories
www.sciam.com...

The Ground Zero Grassy Knoll
www.nymetro.com...

Facts about 9/11. Not Fantasy
www.geocities.com...

The September 11 X-Files
www.thenation.com...

The 9/11 Conspiracy: A Skeptic’s View
www.crisispapers.org...

Debunking the 9/11 Movement
www.infoshop.org...
Interview with Prof. Jonathan Barnett, an expert in structural and fire protection engineering who was one of the WTC investigators
www.wpi.edu...

Public Eye - Post 9/11 Conspiracism
www.publiceye.org...
Public Eye- 9/11/01 - Repercussions General Conspiracist Views
www.publiceye.org...

Perry Logon's "Delusion Central" (A fun site.)
perrylogan.org...

Viewer Guide to Loose Change (Doc)
www.ccdominoes.com...
9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide (A light hearted look)
www.ccdominoes.com...

Screw Loose Change Video. (Yes, it's finally here)
www.lolloosechange.co.nr...

Loose Trains
loosetrains911.blogspot.com...

Penn & Teller's Bull # - 911 Conspiracy theories
video.google.com...

Salon - The 9/11 deniers
www.salon.com...
SciAm blog about conspiracists' reaction to Shermer
sciam-editor.typepad.com...

In These Times: Nightmares of Reason: Sorting fact from fiction in 9/11 conspiracy theories
www.inthesetimes.com...

The September 11 X-Files
www.thenation.com...

Snopes debunks "Hunt the Boeing", a conspiracy site based on Thierry Meysan’s (and David Ray Griffin’s) claim that a missile, not AA77, hit the Pentagon
www.snopes2.com...

Wikipedia articles on conspiracy theory characteristics
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

It Was Flight 77 - Debunking Alternative Pentagon Crash Theories
www.geocities.com...

and here is a list of peer reviewed papers regarding the towers..

Engineers Explain WTC Collapse
www.architectureweek.com...

Report Ties WTC Collapses to Column Failures
enr.construction.com...

IT WAS THE FIRE, CAUSED THE TWIN TOWER COLLAPSE - icivilengineer.com
www.icivilengineer.com...

Simulation for the collapse of WTC after aeroplane impact - Lu XZ., Yang N., Jiang JJ. Structure Engineer, 66(sup.). 2003, 18-22

Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.
"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.

Brannigan, F.L.
"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.

Clifton, Charles G.
Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers
HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.

"Construction and Collapse Factors"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.

Corbett, G.P.
"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"
Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.

"Dissecting the Collapses"
Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.

Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.
"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"
JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.

Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.
World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations
(also available on-line)

Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.
"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"
The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.

Glover, N.J.
"Collapse Lessons"
Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103

Marechaux, T.G.
"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"
JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.

Monahan, B.
"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"
Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.

Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.
"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"
Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.

National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: Congressional and Legislative Affairs
“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”
Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002.

Pinsker, Lisa, M.
"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"
Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).
The print copy has 3-D images.

Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)
Why the Towers Fell: A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.
NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online)

Post, N.M.
"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"
ENR v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.

Post, N.M.
"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"
ENR v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.

The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering
World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
A resource site.

"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"
ENR v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.

The Towers Lost and Beyond
web.mit.edu...
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Eduardo Kausel, John E. Fernandez, Tomasz Wierzbicki, Liang Xue, Meg Hendry-Brogan, Ahmed F. Ghoniem, Oral Buyukozturk, Franz-Josef Ulm, Yossi Sheffi


thanks so much, i do read both sides of the story. yesterday was the first time i stayed home on a friday night to read.



posted on May, 21 2011 @ 11:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
Reply to post by bizzy511
 



but to me one of the key issues and mostly overlooked is the suposed terrorist's passport found in the debris.

not only it survived the blast, but happened to land right next to a cop who decided to pick that up and not the other thousands of documents and office papers raining over manhatan...

now really? lol



The passport was found by Richard Wozniak and turned over to the police before the towers collapsed.
Richard Wozniak's Testimony

There is a reasonable explanation for the passport surviving.





posted on May, 21 2011 @ 11:40 PM
link   
Reply to post by waypastvne
 


yeah i know that.
as that is what i was talking about.
did you see the millions of other papers and such that were projected as the planes hit??


what are the odds?

occam's razor is actually a double edged blade...

oh and dont use a vid to elucidate a poster who is posting via mobile.

instead YOU tell me how it survived.

that i want to read


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 12:20 AM
link   
reply to post by AnotherYOU
 



not only it survived the blast, but happened to land right next to a cop who decided to pick that up and not the other thousands of documents and office papers raining over manhatan...


As usual are WRONG

Passport was not found by a cop - was picked up off street by citizen who then gave to a NYPD detective who
turned it over to FBI


(Hijacker Satam M. A. al-Suqami's) passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11.



On the street, standing in a shower of office paper and the siding from the building, he found a piece of paper. It was an airliner's itinerary, listing information about a flight from Boston to Los Angeles.

"...I noticed in the courtyard that there were valises, suitcases, strewn about the courtyard. There were wallets everywhere, broken glass, and then I noticed that there were airplane tickets." FDNY firefighter John Moribito

Along with the letter was a note: ''To whom it may concern. This was found floating around the street in downtown New York. I am sorry if you suffered any loss in this tragedy. Sincerely, a friend in New York!''
...Since then, Mrs. Snyder, a customer service representative at a grocery store, has discovered that she has one of only two pieces of mail known to have been recovered from the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center.


Aircraft debris



Documents from other crash scenes survived the impact and resulting fires- drivers licenses, personal papers
(checkbook), books, a bible

Credit cards from victims were recovered from wreckage of WTC - after 110 story building fell on it and burned for months



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 12:33 AM
link   

Originally posted by AnotherYOU
Reply to post by waypastvne
 


yeah i know that.
as that is what i was talking about.
did you see the millions of other papers and such that were projected as the planes hit??


what are the odds?

occam's razor is actually a double edged blade...


Photo south of the towers before collapse. Yes I think I would notice a passport.





oh and dont use a vid to elucidate a poster who is posting via mobile.

instead YOU tell me how it survived.

that i want to read


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 


The concept is pretty simple.

Flt 11 was traveling at 466 mph.

The passport was traveling at 466 mph.

The 19,500 cu ft of air inside the cabin of AA 11 was traveling at 466 mph.

When AA 11 hit tower 1, most of the plane deaccelerated, most of the 19,500 cu ft of air did not.

The 19,500 cu ft of air passed through the building in less than a 1/4 of a second and was out the other side before the fuel ignited. It carried with it a passport and other debris.

UA 175's Vapour trail.



edit on 22-5-2011 by waypastvne because: (no reason given)



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