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Should the US deport ALL dual Israel/US citizens ???

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posted on May, 20 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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Aha, I see Godwins law is still holding up.




posted on May, 20 2011 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by Glass
So easy to compare this idea to the holocaust, though considerably less violent in theory, one might interpret it as horribly anti-semetic/"racist" (despite Jews not being a race and the possibility that not all US/Israeli citizens are Jewish)

My verdict: not a politically sound idea.


So you are saying just leave our borders open
to any and all and allow those same folks to hold
positions in gov who can manipulate our laws
as they see fit even if it means breaking existing
ones like in the US Constitution ???

I don't call that racism at all.
I would call that sound management
of a free Republic. As those same
laws would affect all nationalities
not just Israelis.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 05:43 PM
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and this question has got absolutely
nothing to do with the holocaust.

I am not talking about killing anybody
or shipping them off to concentration
camps. I am just asking about disallowing
dual citizenships.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by boondock-saint
 


I have yet to fully understand our relationship with Israel. They seem to be pushing the buttons on our control panel and have been for years. And I don't have a firm grasp as to why. So without knowing the whole story, it's hard to form an opinion of this. There are enough things in history that show Israel isn't as squeaky clean as they portray themselves, but either they have some huge reason to have the pull they do, or someone isn't doing their job. Or perhaps there is a great reason for us to be super best friends with them. Until I hear an answer that makes me understand it, I will remain confused.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
I have yet to fully understand our relationship with Israel. They seem to be pushing the buttons on our control panel and have been for years. And I don't have a firm grasp as to why. So without knowing the whole story, it's hard to form an opinion of this. There are enough things in history that show Israel isn't as squeaky clean as they portray themselves, but either they have some huge reason to have the pull they do, or someone isn't doing their job. Or perhaps there is a great reason for us to be super best friends with them. Until I hear an answer that makes me understand it, I will remain confused.

very valid point ND
star 4 u

but there is a big difference between WHY and HOW.

HOW, we know (Dual Citizenships)
WHY remains the mystery.

It's almost as if Israel performed a coup de tat
of the US Gov and used dual citizenship as
the backdoor. talk about exploitation ???

And then we have 9/11 as being an Israeli spanking
for questioning it.

edit on 5/20/2011 by boondock-saint because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:15 PM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
They shouldn't be allowed in government. Not only Israel/US citizens, but those of any other dual citizenship.

But deport them, no.


Like the dual citizen impostor Obama. One more reason why he has to go.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by daeoeste
Holy crap. Would you want to put them on railcars, perhaps?
This is not a way to solve a problem, only easy ammunition to use against people who have legitimate concerns over United States policy toward Israel in general.


Exactly. Slippery slope anyone? My next thought would be deporting a dual country citizen and letting any single document citizen sliding right on in is probably similar to a suicide. Yeah, off topic but if we're discussing deporting people here legally the discussion should advance to deporting other citizens that are not legal - if you see what I mean.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:26 PM
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Oh i hate this kind of question...

OK, basically I break it down like this:

1) The OP asked about an action of the US government, which is defined by laws. So to begin with, can we at least agree that the US as a nation is required to: a) have laws, and b) follow those laws? Seems a reasonable place for everyone to start, at least to me, anyway.

2) So from basic rule of law as the starting point, the next step = is it: a) legal, b) illegal, or c) undetermined for any given person with dual citizenship to reside in the US?

3) If (2.a) then let them remain. If (2.b) deport them. If (2.c) than make a law either way through the proper channels and follow it.

4) If any of the outcomes above seems unjust, fight to change the law to the best of your ability, and accept with grace if you are on the losing side of that battle.

Now, that 's how I would answer the question in the OP's title. The question in the OP's first post in this thread was actually a little different because it was about spying and things like that. That is definitely illegal and those individuals should be punished according to the law. In all other cases, for any other questions that arise in connection with this issuem I would say go through the proccess I outlined above.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by boondock-saint
whoa
u r taking this way out of context.
I said nothing about rail cars.
I am just asking a question,
would we be better off by
disallowing dual citizenships??


That's NOT what you said. You said, "Should the US deport ALL dual Israel/US citizens?"

I personally know of several US/Canadian dual citizens and US/UK dual citizens. (There may be many more--I just don't know any personally.) Seems to me you'd have to make a case why you're singling out Israel here.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:44 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
That's NOT what you said. You said, "Should the US deport ALL dual Israel/US citizens?"

I personally know of several US/Canadian dual citizens and US/UK dual citizens. (There may be many more--I just don't know any personally.) Seems to me you'd have to make a case why you're singling out Israel here.


Yes, I used Israel in the title cuz there
was an emphasis on Israel due to how
many were already in positions of power
within the US Gov. There are more dual
Israeli/US Citizens in US Gov than any other
country which made them the majority
of the topic discussed.

Had there been more Russian/US dual
citizens in US Gov, then I would have used
Russia instead due to being the majority.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by boondock-saint

Yes, I used Israel in the title cuz there
was an emphasis on Israel due to how
many were already in positions of power
within the US Gov. There are more dual
Israeli/US Citizens in US Gov than any other
country which made them the majority
of the topic discussed.

Had there been more Russian/US dual
citizens in US Gov, then I would have used
Russia instead due to being the majority.


You have yet to cite your sources here. Right now it is simply an unsubstantiated claim you are making. You may very well be correct, but you seem to be bouncing around a bit here and we have yet to see the data.
edit on 5/20/2011 by schuyler because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:56 PM
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I always thought Israel was a de facto colony of the US.
Why would the US cut ties with it's own colony by such a move?

I also thought that Israel allows all Jews the right of return, so all Jewish people technically have a Jewish passport (just like Liberia once welcomed all former African slaves who wanted to return).
Now I was told one can be born Jewish (with a Jewish mom), or one can convert (not sure how that works).
I see a lot of Christian fundamentalists accepting quasi-Judaism, and I suppose soon they will also get passports to Israel?

However, you can't deport all the bona fide Jews to Israel.
Israel specifically rejects some of them.
You can't deport Norman Finkelstein, when his own people wouldn't let him in the last time.

Link: Norman Finkelstein arrested at Israeli airport and banned for 10 years (despite being Jewish and the son of holocaust survivors): jonathanturley.org...
edit on 20-5-2011 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by boondock-saint
 


Dude! Mr. president-Elect! I carry a join citizenship and am in the service. Lets not get hasty here!



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 07:32 PM
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The other issue here is that too much emphasis is given to "citizenship." Like many of us, I'm a bona fide 100% American citizen without dual citizenship anwhere else, yet I haven't in that context signed any loyalty oaths. I was just born here. Yet the guy above me here, a dual citizen, has. Indeed, today in my city 47 members of the US Armed Forces became citizens. They had ALREADY sworn allegience to the US. Yet from the tone of posts here at ATS I would guess many US citizens hate the US with a passion.

Your wanting to use a piece of paper as the decision point in a deportation decision, when that doesn't matter as much as attitude. And as much as you might promote this, as Netanyahu said himself today,

"It's not gonna happen."



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 07:39 PM
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Originally posted by schuyler
The other issue here is that too much emphasis is given to "citizenship." Like many of us, I'm a bona fide 100% American citizen without dual citizenship anwhere else, yet I haven't in that context signed any loyalty oaths. I was just born here. Yet the guy above me here, a dual citizen, has. Indeed, today in my city 47 members of the US Armed Forces became citizens. They had ALREADY sworn allegience to the US. Yet from the tone of posts here at ATS I would guess many US citizens hate the US with a passion.

Your wanting to use a piece of paper as the decision point in a deportation decision, when that doesn't matter as much as attitude. And as much as you might promote this, as Netanyahu said himself today,

"It's not gonna happen."


English, by the way. Cheers



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 08:51 PM
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Yeah, get them the hell out of here. Between American politicians pandering to large corporations and the dual citizen israelis carrying out israel's designs on our country, the American people have zero chance of having our best interests tended to in a responsible, dutiful and sane manner. Get them the hell out!



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 08:54 PM
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reply to post by belowcommonknowledge
 

I'm half British, I wear the uniform of the United States Army. Now, Was in the Air Force. We took an oath and by god we live and die by that oath!!!!!



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by wcitizen

Originally posted by Vitchilo
They shouldn't be allowed in government. Not only Israel/US citizens, but those of any other dual citizenship.

But deport them, no.


Like the dual citizen impostor Obama. One more reason why he has to go.


Dual citizenship isn't the problem it's who they have sworn loyalty to that is the problem. Just like in WW2 when we were putting the Japanese in camps we would still take them into the military because they swore loyalty to the states.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by boondock-saint
there are over 300 US Gov employees
who have dual Israeli / US Citizenship
and encompass all 3 branches of gov
including Obama's last choice for the US
Supreme Court Elena Kagen.

www.viewzone.com...
Let's look at some of the names listed, shall we?

Michael Mukasey - born in the Bronx. No indication he's ever lived outside the United States. Why/how would he have dual citizenship with Israel?

Michael Chertoff - born in New Jersey. No indication he's ever lived outside the United States. Why/how would he have dual citizenship with Israel?

Richard Perle - born in New York City. No indication he's ever lived outside the United States. Why/how would he have dual citizenship with Israel?

Paul Wolfowitz - born in Brooklyn. No indication he's ever lived outside the United States. Why/how would he have dual citizenship with Israel?

I'm sensing a trend here. Where's the proof that these people have dual citizenship?



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 11:32 PM
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But I thought US law didn't permit one to be a dual citizen -- that if you were (by birth or otherwise), you either had to give up the other citizenship when you came of age, or else you'd lose your US status. And that if you became a citizen of another country, you'd automatically lose your US citizenship. So what's all this talk about dual citizenship?

It indeed used to be the case in the US that you couldn't hold dual citizenship (except in certain cases if you had dual citizenship from birth or childhood, in which case some Supreme Court rulings -- Perkins v. Elg (1939), Mandoli v. Acheson (1952), and Kawakita v. U.S. (1952) -- permitted you to keep both). However, most of the laws forbidding dual citizenship were struck down by the US Supreme Court in two cases: a 1967 decision, Afroyim v. Rusk, as well as a second ruling in 1980, Vance v. Terrazas.

Rules against dual citizenship still apply to some extent -- at least in theory -- to people who wish to become US citizens via naturalization. The Supreme Court chose to leave in place the requirement that new citizens must renounce their old citizenship during US naturalization. However, in practice, the State Department is no longer doing anything in the vast majority of situations where a new citizen's "old country" refuses to recognize the US renunciation and continues to consider the person's original citizenship to be in effect.

The official US State Department policy on dual citizenship today is that the United States does not favor it as a matter of policy because of various problems they feel it may cause, but the existence of dual citizenship is recognized (i.e., accepted) as a fact of life. That is, if you ask them if you ought to become a dual citizen, they will recommend against doing it; but if you tell them you are a dual citizen, they'll almost always say it's OK.

www.richw.org...



www.richw.org...

Afroyim v. Rusk, 387 U.S. 253 (1967)
Beys Afroyim (born Ephraim Bernstein in Poland in 1893) immigrated to the US in 1912 and became a naturalized US citizen in 1926. In 1950, Afroyim moved to Israel. He tried to renew his US passport in 1960, but the State Department refused on the grounds that he had lost his citizenship by voting in an Israeli election in 1951. Afroyim sued the State Department, and the Supreme Court ruled (5-4) that he was still a US citizen.

The basic point of the Supreme Court's ruling in Afroyim v. Rusk was that the "citizenship clause" of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution -- while originally intended mainly to guarantee citizenship to freed Negro slaves and their descendants, and subsequently interpreted in Wong Kim Ark as conferring citizenship at birth to virtually everyone born in the US -- had effectively elevated citizenship to the status of a constitutionally protected right. Hence, Congress had no right to pass a law which had the effect of depriving an American of his citizenship without his assent.

Thus, the court ruled, a section of the Immigration and Nationality Act mandating automatic loss of citizenship for voting in a foreign election was invalid. Other, similar provisions providing for loss of citizenship for serving in a foreign army, or even swearing allegiance to a foreign country, were similarly invalid unless the action was accompanied by an intent to give up US citizenship.

The Supreme Court noted that the Civil Rights Act of 1866 had already tried to confer citizenship on all persons born or naturalized in the US. However, proponents of the 14th Amendment had expressed fears that this provision could be repealed by a later Congress, and so they insisted that the new amendment should contain its own definition of citizenship that Congress could not change later on.

Further, the court pointed to a proposed (but never ratified) constitutional amendment, early in the 19th century, which would have revoked the US citizenship of anyone who accepted a foreign title or gift, as evidence that Congress was not believed at that time to have the power to do such a thing via ordinary legislation. (Incidentally, this is the same proposed amendment which some foes of the federal income tax allege was in fact duly ratified, then suppressed by lawyers who supposedly feared their "foreign" title of "Esquire" would result in the loss of their US citizenship and their positions of power in the government.)

By ruling as it did in the Afroyim case, the Supreme Court explicitly threw out the principles held nine years earlier in Perez v. Brownell.

The Supreme Court's Afroyim ruling did not definitively throw out all prohibitions against dual citizenship in the US. Although the court clearly stated that loss of citizenship required the individual's assent, some uncertainty remained as to whether an actual swearing of allegiance to a foreign country would, by itself, constitute such assent. (The question of how, or even whether, Afroyim had become a citizen of Israel, or sworn allegiance to Israel, did not come up in his case.)

Also, the court did not address the issue of what standard of proof would be required in citizenship cases -- i.e., whether intent to give up citizenship had to be proved clearly and convincingly (as in a criminal trial), or by a preponderance of evidence (as in a lawsuit). This question would not be resolved until Vance v. Terrazas (see below).

It should additionally be noted that the Afroyim case did not deal with Congress's right to require new citizens to renounce their prior allegiances as a prerequisite for naturalization.

The statutory provision calling for loss of US citizenship for voting in a foreign election, struck down by the court in this case, was repealed by Congress in 1978 (Public Law 95-432).



i guess that opens the door for any "natural" U.S. citizen to "join-up" with another nation ??

Israel seems pretty liberal ..... BUT, must you "prove" you are "Jewish" ?

and what is the "definition" ?

is there any "loyalty" clauses ????

or worse yet ... any "denouncing" clauses ??



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