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Can all Everest summiters claim a true summit..?

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posted on May, 18 2011 @ 09:29 PM
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I've been following everest expeditions since 1995. I've photos of nearly every m2 of the North East Ridge which is my favourite due to it's history and mystery relating to Mallory and Irvine.

In 1960 the Chinese made it up to the top from the north side with the aid of the now famous chinese ladder which they added on the next expedition in 1975 where they fixed a ladder to the headwall. They also used oxygen although it ran out before they summitted. There is no actual evidence the Chinese summited.

I have just come to realize that in reality, no one summiting Everest from the north side, who has used that ladder, can actually claim a true summit, but if the Chinese account is true they were first but they used oxygen.

Some like Reinhold Messner actually climbed without oxygen and without using the ladder. His would be the first actual true ascent and decent of Everest North.

This does open up debate about ladders on crevasses but a cravasse is not a mountain so I don't count that as an issue.

The same applies to dying on the way down. I believe Mallory did summit but as he died on the way down we still cannot treat his success as a summit any more than you can treat a moon landing as a success with the retun to earth. You must return alive to be counted.
As with swimming the English Channel, is it counted if you use swimfins?


So, does anyone think that successful summits on the North side using the ladder should not be counted as true summits? Or does a summit by any means, ladders, ropes, jetpacks etc etc count?

What if later on we develop a suit that prevents HAPE and HACE from occuring and full oxygen flow is provided and the effects of altitude are eliminated. Would that still count? Because if it doesn't why should older technology like ladders and oxygen.



edit on 18-5-2011 by daggyz because: spelling




posted on May, 18 2011 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by daggyz
 


I think you are indeed right in saying that it cant count as a true summit. The ladder was a great idea, but it certainly takes away the climbing experience of mountaineering. If it was a very very short ladder section to nacigate an part which was simply impossible to assend then I would say ok let it go but not in this case.

You are also right imo that you need to return to claim a successful summit, the aim is to get up and back down safely, if a helicopter picked you up for example at the top or part the way down you couldnt call that a poroper climb. Getting back is the other half of the battle.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 01:44 AM
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reply to post by daggyz
 

Does you also disqualify the use of O2?
I don't really give a damn. I think it's a stupid stunt no matter how it's done.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 01:54 AM
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I am not near an enthusiast of the subject matter but ladder? The term itself spits all over the term hiking.
I like the way you presented your op. You bring true discussion here.

And me, with little knowledge of said events have to say that reading your op i will give the following opinion:
Since the first person that climed the summit of everest died on the way down there should be two 'records'

1)The first person to climb the mountain and reach the summit was so and so, but died on the way down
2)The first person/persons the climb the mountain and reach the summit was so so and so and so, and made it all the way down.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 01:57 AM
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reply to post by Anttyk47
 

It's unknown if Mallory made it to the Top.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 02:12 AM
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So if I go to the shop but I choose to drive to the shop did I really go to the shop?

Maybe I was physically at the shop but I can't truly claim that I went to the shop and if I was hit by a bus on the way back from the shop then it's as good as read that I never made it to the shop in the first place.

Dunno I could be wrong here but it all sounds like armchair pedantics to me.

Replace the word ladder with the word rope and do you still have the same issues, Everest is not the sort of Mt you can free climb up.
edit on 19-5-2011 by pazcat because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 02:12 AM
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Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Anttyk47
 

It's unknown if Mallory made it to the Top.


Then something to leave in the statement. "It is unknown that so and so" The first official group that made it to the top was "ADSLKAHDSG"

You know what i'm getting at though



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Anttyk47
 

It's unknown if Mallory made it to the Top.

I don't know if you've seen it but they found his body recently and the pictures are incredible. He is on his stomach with arms stretched upward, almost like he was trying to halt his slide down the mountain. His body is intact as there are no predators that high and his exposed skin is bleached completely white. He looks just like a marble statue. Unfortunately his camera was not with him so there is no proof of a summit.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by daggyz
 

There is a ladder on the Hillary step and empty oxygen cylinders litter the mountain. Any goofball with 70 grand is pretty much guaranteed a summit these days.
It's only a matter of time until someone figures out how to run a chair lift to the top.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 02:53 AM
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reply to post by Trublbrwing
 

No thanks. Not interested.
Summitting Everest is nothing but an ego driven waste.
But at least they're starting to haul the garbage off of the mountain. (not referring to bodies)
edit on 5/19/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:01 AM
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reply to post by Phage
 


True, and it's unknown of the Chinese made it to. Neither was proven.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by pazcat
So if I go to the shop but I choose to drive to the shop did I really go to the shop?

Maybe I was physically at the shop but I can't truly claim that I went to the shop and if I was hit by a bus on the way back from the shop then it's as good as read that I never made it to the shop in the first place.

Dunno I could be wrong here but it all sounds like armchair pedantics to me.

Replace the word ladder with the word rope and do you still have the same issues, Everest is not the sort of Mt you can free climb up.
edit on 19-5-2011 by pazcat because: (no reason given)


Actually yes it is. It's been done both North and Southsides, up the Kangshung face and up the East face on several routes, all free climbed.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by Trublbrwing

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Anttyk47
 

It's unknown if Mallory made it to the Top.

I don't know if you've seen it but they found his body recently and the pictures are incredible. He is on his stomach with arms stretched upward, almost like he was trying to halt his slide down the mountain. His body is intact as there are no predators that high and his exposed skin is bleached completely white. He looks just like a marble statue. Unfortunately his camera was not with him so there is no proof of a summit.


His arse was eaten out. Believe it or not there is a bird that is on the mountain. 'Chough' I think they're called. They often scavenge on bodies.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by Trublbrwing
reply to post by daggyz
 

There is a ladder on the Hillary step and empty oxygen cylinders litter the mountain. Any goofball with 70 grand is pretty much guaranteed a summit these days.
It's only a matter of time until someone figures out how to run a chair lift to the top.






There is no ladder on the Hillary step. Direct us to a picture please but I think you'll find it's only the north side. I follow every expedition and have never seen nor heard reference to a ladder on the South side



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:29 AM
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So they just bounded gracefully over crevasses did they?

Oh wait, that's not actually part of climbing the mountain.


Seriously why just limit your theory to the north face ladder, most use O2, nearly all use guide ropes, others tie off with a buddy and some even have a change of socks with them. By my workings nobody has ever climbed the mountain.
Maybe you should climb the bloody thing and see how it goes, then when you come back you might be better placed to form a valid opinion. Fair enough if you have some romantic vision of the past glory days and how things should be done but don't just sit on your couch saying those who climbed the north route didn't really climb the mountain when nearly all climbing the south route use ropes they did not put in place.

I don't think armchair enthusiasts are ideally placed to tell someone what they did or didn't do.
Come back when you have summited, no ropes, no o's, no anything. Just you in your tidy whitey's with a pick and some cramp ons.
edit on 19-5-2011 by pazcat because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by pazcat
So they just bounded gracefully over crevasses did they?

Oh wait, that's not actually part of climbing the mountain.


Seriously why just limit your theory to the north face ladder, most use O2, nearly all use guide ropes, others tie off with a buddy and some even have a change of socks with them. By my workings nobody has ever climbed the mountain.
Maybe you should climb the bloody thing and see how it goes, then when you come back you might be better placed to form a valid opinion. Fair enough if you have some romantic vision of the past glory days and how things should be done but don't just sit on your couch saying those who climbed the north route didn't really climb the mountain when nearly all climbing the south route use ropes they did not put in place.

I don't think armchair enthusiasts are ideally placed to tell someone what they did or didn't do.
Come back when you have summited, no ropes, no o's, no anything. Just you in your tidy whitey's with a pick and some cramp ons.
edit on 19-5-2011 by pazcat because: (no reason given)


No actually, mr clown, we are opening up the debate. In theory all things can be allowed in time, I'm seeking debate from climbers and non climbers alike and your comments are duly noted and just as valid as any other.

I had a reply from ExplorersWeb this morning who themselves say it is time to open up the debate again. There are big problems up there with garbage and human waste and the conditions at basecamps are better than some people live in the USA.

One has a better chance of surviving Everest on 6 consecutive climbs than just once on K2 or the Eigier. (mind you the Eiger you you can get out the train halfway up the inside of the mountain and climb from there) Even the Matterhorn now has some ladders.

But to continue your line of thinking lets just build a cable-car up there in 2050 and by then technology will have allowed it to be seen as a climb? I think not.
edit on 19-5-2011 by daggyz because: (no reason given)



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