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Birthers: We Were Right. The BC is a FRAUD!!! Obama Lovers: Debunk THIS!

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posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by Antiquated1

Originally posted by Laokin
He was born in 61, when there were no commercial computers. Meaning it must have been typed by a typewriter.

It doesn't take an expert to see it was done on a computer... It just takes some one who has seen and used typewriters to know how apparent it is.

Also, how do you explain the different character sets? I suppose Obama was such a super special baby it took TWO, not one, but two... typewriters to write his birth certificate...

Then well, there is the missing "Official Seal" too, that anybody with a real BC has on their own....


I really need to ask how you can tell any of this stuff from looking at a processed digital image file on a computer screen. Each word in that sentence is important. I appreciate you apparent knowledge of typewriters but my experience scanning documents tells me that your expertise in one field may not translate as well as you hope. Your explanation should prove to be most enlightening. I appreciate any answer you have.


Quite simply actually. A processed digital image, isn't going to fix the anomalies present in the typeface by a typewriter. A processed digital image, would degrade quality, rather then improve it, and make it look -- better, than a typewriter ever could look.

All it would do, is lower the actual image resolution a bit, which wouldn't suddenly straighten letters, nor make them all look 100% uniform, or add in characters from a different typeface in the middle of a word using the original typeface.

Digital Processing, if the image was unedited, would hardly result in quality loss, as the image is already lower than 720p resolutions (1366x768) by the nature of the size of the certificate.... Meaning the resize wouldn't hurt the image quality much at all, and what would have gotten damaged, would not suddenly make the difference between typewriter type and computer accurate spacing indestinguishable.

And none of this adresses the fact that his Long nor Short Form have the Hawaii State Seal on them. Again, doesn't take a master of computer forensics to see they aren't even officially legal.

See, I'm not just knowledgeable about typewriters.... I'm a qualified photo engineer. And like I said in a previous post, I don't pretext you with that fact, because you are simply going to deny it's the truth anyway. Since "everyone on the internet is a self proclaimed photo editing professional" -- you know, I grew tired of that argument.

In a survival thread, I listed all my skills -- and what I'm qualified to do, and I'm currently going to college for Computer Application Programming, and Program Design. So as you would guess, I know quite alot about computers as well.[

TL;DR

Computer Accurate Spacing is known as "Kerning." It's the stuff typewriters could only of ever dreamt to do.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)




posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:55 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin
If you've used a typewriter before, you would see that the released Birth Certificate, is not typed on a typewriter. This however, doesn't mean it's not a copy of his official birth record.


Your doing an analysis over the physical appearance of the birth certificate without actually examining it, and you've come to this conclusion? Your not an expert in this field, and yet you want us to take your conclusions as evidene?


And pretty sure there was never any experts that verified it's integrity


Hawaiian health department officials actually posted his birth certificate verifying it.


And no, it's not a 46 year old conspiracy theory. It's not very hard to add a file to a record, nor is it very inconceivable


How can it not be a 46 year old conspiracy? You're saying his parents were clueless of him being born in Kenya? Honestly now, if you are going to insist there's some coverup of his birth in Kenya, his parents would be involved in th cover up. Unless you are of the opinion that his parents never denied his birth in Kenya, is that it? Is this your stance? It just gets deeper and deeper for you doesn't it?


But, cool... I totally understand,


Oh I understand as well. You don't like Obama, you have personal issues about him being president, you hide behind obviously flawed conspiracies to contain that personal issue you have for him. To me this is a free country. As birthers say, why hide? Why do birthers hide from their true selves? I'd like to have an opn debate for once.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Laokin
If you've used a typewriter before, you would see that the released Birth Certificate, is not typed on a typewriter. This however, doesn't mean it's not a copy of his official birth record.


Your doing an analysis over the physical appearance of the birth certificate without actually examining it, and you've come to this conclusion? Your not an expert in this field, and yet you want us to take your conclusions as evidene?


And pretty sure there was never any experts that verified it's integrity


Hawaiian health department officials actually posted his birth certificate verifying it.


And no, it's not a 46 year old conspiracy theory. It's not very hard to add a file to a record, nor is it very inconceivable


How can it not be a 46 year old conspiracy? You're saying his parents were clueless of him being born in Kenya? Honestly now, if you are going to insist there's some coverup of his birth in Kenya, his parents would be involved in th cover up. Unless you are of the opinion that his parents never denied his birth in Kenya, is that it? Is this your stance? It just gets deeper and deeper for you doesn't it?


But, cool... I totally understand,


Oh I understand as well. You don't like Obama, you have personal issues about him being president, you hide behind obviously flawed conspiracies to contain that personal issue you have for him. To me this is a free country. As birthers say, why hide? Why do birthers hide from their true selves? I'd like to have an opn debate for once.


No. I actually don't hate him. You can feel free to cruise all of my posts and you won't find me ever talking about how I hate him.


How did I not actually examine it? I took the very same one they released to the public and examined it. It failed examination. Yes, I'm qualified to see when an image is faked. I went to school for that, thanks. (Fullsail in Orlando.)

Still, not addressing the lack of the Hawaii State Seal either. You laserlock on what you think I'm not qualified to examine, you then say I hate Obama and I want him out.....(When I don't particularly care about it -- there is nobody else qualified to do what he's doing right now, so even if he was out, that would mean that I liked Biden, which I don't... that's a man I hate.) Then you tell me physically examining it (which is impossible, as nobody could get the actual original in their hands, they can only get copies) isn't good enough.

So what you are essentially saying, is it's impossible for anybody to verify, except people that Obama trusts to verify it, which would be considered a conflict of interest in the court of law.

And for Obama's Parents, maybe they weren't popular. I'm from New York, and I garauntee you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who remembers me, if I were to suddenly get super famous... maybe only my family and one other person? And how hard would it be to ask them to just go along with it for a while? Surely they would, wouldn't they be so proud their son is The President, so proud, that they don't ever speak about where he was born, and if they are asked... they be instructed to answer accordingly?

Surely, that's not possible either right?

Like back in 61 the people of kenya knew Obama would be President, so they vowed to always remember him? What dream world do you live in? Especially when Obama (if really born in kenya) was brought to America as a baby, why would.... kenyans.... remember him?

I don't get that logic? And I'm more apt to believe kenya to be not as good as us when it comes to census.... so it's possible, they wouldn't even have the records...

It's Africa in '61 we are talking about here....

P.S.

I don't believe he was born in africa. I stated that many times. I think this is an obvious case of misdirection, I think he wants people to focus on a non issue, to avoid the real issues. It also allows him to neutralize voters, and increase his standing in the polls.

Paint a minority as crazy, and watch everyone jump to the polar extreme opposite... it's a really good tactic when you are up for re-election.

To put it more simple, The birthers came to be, and Obama took them for a ride perpetuating the story and is now using them as one of his planks for his new campaign.

If you don't know what a "plank" is, I suggest you go look it up.

I deem you ignorant sir. I also believe there is a real Hawaiian birth cert, I do believe he released this fake one on purpose just to make the birthers look even crazier, in order to secure his position as a 2 term president.

It's actually quite smart in this circus that has become politics lately.

Here you can see clearly how I'm not a birther, and I think the reality is no where near as nefarious as they claim... yet again, you show your clear allegiance to the polar opposite extreme that is the birthers.... What do we call you guys?

We gotta give you a name too... a cute one at that, and no -- you don't get to pick it, all good nicknames stick.

(P.P.S. my bit about Africa, was only entertaining your poor counter-logic to the situation, you are just as looney as the people you claim are looney......)
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin
Yes, I'm qualified to see when an image is faked. I went to school for that, thanks. (Fullsail in Orlando.)


You went to school to learn how to determine false documents from scanned images online?

Really?



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:38 AM
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Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1

Originally posted by Antiquated1

Originally posted by roadtoad
Well, if you're counting Obama's recently released birth certificate to be real and true, you'd think they'd be nice enough to put a raised seal on it.


So you could feel it on your monitor?

I know it has the image of the impression of the seal on it. How does one put a raised seal on a pdf?
edit on 21-5-2011 by Antiquated1 because: (no reason given)


The copy released is the Vault Copy as it's clearly still attached to the book where it is kept and the Seal sits on the front cover of that book which is legally sufficient enough. Quit with this seal nonsense, now if it was issued as an individual piece of paper the seal would've been required but since the copy was done with the book opened to that page requires no seal.

So sorry.


Uh...what's that now?
I believe I just asked how one would put or feel a raised seal on a pdf file so I neither understand your response or your hostility. The stars you got make me question the reading ability among those following this. I like to think I have been polite so far. I think maybe you responded to the wrong person.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:40 AM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Laokin
Yes, I'm qualified to see when an image is faked. I went to school for that, thanks. (Fullsail in Orlando.)


You went to school to learn how to determine false documents from scanned images online?

Really?



I went to school to learn how to make fakes essentially. Not just fakes, but composite images, and art of my own. But yes, they teach you how to make photoshops in that school, they also teach you how to detect photoshops in that school. They also teach you how to render and sculpt in 3D, it's an impressive school.... It's soley for art.

Then there is also the matter of tools that can pickout photoshopped photo's through science.... by comparing pixels of the image to one another, photoshopped images will have the edits stand out in pixels, during this process.

One such free tool, errorlevelanalysis.com... You can use it to make sure your celeb porn folder is authentic, or if it is indeed shopped... 100% (You might get sad though, as you will quickly notice they are mostly fake... LOL.)



OH MY GOD.

Totally Shopped.... Every field... According to ELA.
errorlevelanalysis.com...

If you don't understand what makes that proof, go to the root website for ela... it has an example picture, and shows you what to look for.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:43 AM
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reply to post by Drunkenparrot
 


You, Ashley, and Benevolent Heretic seemed to put a lot of effort into this and I really appreciate that. When I read over Ahsley's, that was interesting being that she was more of a birther before but mostly what I find interesting is that I have seen 2 or 3 posters on ATS say that they did it and didn't get anything close. I noticed that those people are having trouble showing their work. Thank you all for taking the time to back up what you are writing instead of just saying it and then saying it louder.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Laokin
Yes, I'm qualified to see when an image is faked. I went to school for that, thanks. (Fullsail in Orlando.)


You went to school to learn how to determine false documents from scanned images online?

Really?



I went to school to learn how to make fakes essentially.



I do graphic art - - actually create documents.

You can not determine one way or another from a scanned image online.

Yes - - you can manipulate it. Which means Jack Crap!

Anomalies in scans? Now there's a shock.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Laokin

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Laokin
Yes, I'm qualified to see when an image is faked. I went to school for that, thanks. (Fullsail in Orlando.)


You went to school to learn how to determine false documents from scanned images online?

Really?



I went to school to learn how to make fakes essentially.



I do graphic art - - actually create documents.

You can not determine one way or another from a scanned image online.

Yes - - you can manipulate it. Which means Jack Crap!

Anomalies in scans? Now there's a shock.


You aren't me. You didn't go to my school. They didn't teach you what they taught me. Quite simply as I mentioned above, there are tools that scientifically calculate the pixel difference between objects in a scene, and can tell which ones were manipulated, and then spits back a filtered image, to show you the results.

There are 100% ways to know if a photo is edited beyond just looking at it. This image, indeed -- is. Uniformly, acrossed the entire document. If it was a scanner error, it wouldn't be uniform acrossed the entire document.

Beyond Exif Data, Beyond blowing it up.... I'm sorry, if you aren't familiar with these tools. I gave an example of one in my previous post too.... with the link to the official Long Form Analasys.

Here I'll save you some time.

It reads:
Shop.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:04 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin
No. I actually don't hate him.


But your participating in a campaign to insist he had his birth certificate forged. Right. You are more than welcome to rationalize your feelings about him to yourself. I can't stop you.


You can feel free to cruise all of my posts


Your arguments are full of nonsense. If you spent half as much time analyzing every corner of other birth certificates as you did Obama's, you'd find similar differences that would pop up in your head. The fact that you concluded in part that his birth certificate was a forgery due to it's "size" or the "lettering" from looking at a scanned image of his birth certificate is evident.

Obama's long form birth certificate is not a perfect illustration of what a birth certificate is suppose to look like. You have one view of how birth certificates are suppose to appear, you made up your mind about it, that's that.


How did I not actually examine it? I took the very same one they released to the public and examined it. It failed examination.


Yes, Obama's birth certificate failed your examination. Highly objective. No credentials, no experiences with Hawaiian birth certificates, we're suppose to disregard the verification frm Hawaiian authorities as false because his birth certificate failed your examination. What a high horse you sit on.


Still, not addressing the lack of the Hawaii State Seal either.


The various arguments made has been explained on this website time and time again. Go to this link, take the picture of Obama's long form birth certificate (or if you want, go onto the Hawaiian Health department website), copy, paste, and invert the colours of the birth certificate. You'll see that the seal will appear barely.
nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com...

If you actually held the birth certificate, you'd feel the seal. Should I arrange Hawaiian authorities to deliver Obama's birth certificate to you personally?


isn't good enough.


Nothing Obama does is good enough for people like you. Considering that no other president has released their long form birth certificate to the public, it's very telling.


And for Obama's Parents, maybe they weren't popular. I'm from New York, and I garauntee you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who remembers me, if I were to suddenly get super famous... maybe only my family and one other person? And how hard would it be to ask them to just go along with it for a while? Surely they would, wouldn't they be so proud their son is The President, so proud, that they don't ever speak about where he was born,


Oh goodness, now you've created our own explanation. Nice. So essentially, Obama's parents kept quiet about him being born in Kenya because they knew that one day he'd become president of the United States. This is logical to you?


It's Africa in '61 we are talking about here....


Yes. A 9 month old teenage was somehow allowed to get onto a week long flight to Kenya (with the ability to afford the plane tickets at the time mind you) only to rush right back to Hawaii in time for class right? In 1961? We are talking about Africa in 1961 ya know? How about the list of vaccines she had to endure before leaving? But this is logical to you right? Yes I know, you don't believe he was born in Kenya, but your assisting a conspiracy that holds that basis nevertheless.


I don't believe he was born in africa.


And here you are.

"Im not a birther but"
"I believe he was born in America anyway, but"
"Why doesn't he just release his long form birth certificate to end this all"

Wait a minute. Ignore the last one.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Southern Guardian because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:14 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin
Quite simply actually. A processed digital image, isn't going to fix the anomalies present in the typeface by a typewriter. A processed digital image, would degrade quality, rather then improve it, and make it look -- better, than a typewriter ever could look.


No offense but it sounds like your expertise in typewriters does not seem to translate into expertise into digital imaging software because quite frankly you are flat out wrong. You were actually shown where you were wrong on the previous page.

You argument is basically "Cuz." That is not helping because I know for a fact that when I scan crappy quality old documents with degraded text, my software is specifically designed to fix that. That is what most software used for archival purposes does. Just plain old OCR does it. Old OCR as in the same OCR I had on my scanner back in the early 90s old. That is exactly what it does so I do not understand your reasoning.


All it would do, is lower the actual image resolution a bit, which wouldn't suddenly straighten letters, nor make them all look 100% uniform, or add in characters from a different typeface in the middle of a word using the original typeface.


What software have you been using on your typewriters and what is the default "resolution" on a typewritten/handwritten form so that it can be "lowered?" I would think you would understand it does not have any resolution until it is a digital document if you had any knowledge of which you speak.


Digital Processing, if the image was unedited, would hardly result in quality loss, as the image is already lower than 720p resolutions (1366x768) by the nature of the size of the certificate.... Meaning the resize wouldn't hurt the image quality much at all, and what would have gotten damaged, would not suddenly make the difference between typewriter type and computer accurate spacing indestinguishable.


Sounds like the last graphics program you used was MS paint. Your argument so far is just a bunch of empty words that go a long way to deny a lot of scanner software.


And none of this adresses the fact that his Long nor Short Form have the Hawaii State Seal on them. Again, doesn't take a master of computer forensics to see they aren't even officially legal.


Let me ask you something. Do you actually care about any of this at all? Do you care in a hateful, partisan way? Do you care in a honest to goodness truth kind of way? I need to know because I can understand that a lot of people are confused but I need to start weeding out the ones that just lie.

The short form has a seal on it. Are you mistaken or purposely trying to deceive?
I really do want you to address this.

How would they put a seal on the pdf file? Did you read the explanation of the seal being on the book?
I really want to know how many people are confused and how many are just liars and I really think the only way to tell is to see if they are ever willing to admit they were wrong about anything. Please get back to me on these two specifically if nothing else, otherwise I think no answer can easily be my answer.


See, I'm not just knowledgeable about typewriters.... I'm a qualified photo engineer.


I fail to see how either qualifies you to explain the results of an enhanced pdf file of a scan. I also fail to see your credentials. I do not understand why people keep claiming they are some kind of expert without showing any kind of proof in a birther thread.

Is a thread on this topic really the place to expect someone to just take your word for something? You can say you are a "qualified" whatever you want. So far you seem to have little computer/document archiving experience but I will reserve judgement for your resume.


And like I said in a previous post, I don't pretext you with that fact, because you are simply going to deny it's the truth anyway.


Why would you say that? We have had one exchange so far and you can tell me what I will and will not deny? I see a lot of "I would but you wont believe me anyway" around here. I am not here to deny anything. Likewise I am not here to blindly accept anything. I would rather start in denial unto proven otherwise but I am actually just looking for answers and facts. If you have some, I will not deny them. Facts are hard to deny. Supposition and braggadocios claims are easy to deny.


Since "everyone on the internet is a self proclaimed photo editing professional" -- you know, I grew tired of that argument.


Then just prove you are who you say you are. I am sorry but I am not going to believe anyone on the internet that just writes anonymously that they are something. Would you? Do you expect me to? Do you expect other birthers to?


In a survival thread, I listed all my skills -- and what I'm qualified to do, and I'm currently going to college for Computer Application Programming, and Program Design. So as you would guess, I know quite alot about computers as well.


Actually from what you just said, you are learning a lot about computers. Show me your degree and relevant experience and we can talk. If you think you are some kind of expert on something you are still learning then you are far more optimistic than I am.

Do you believe what people tell you online? How do I know you are really going to school? How do I know you have ever even seen a typewriter or a camera? I can tell you how I know you do not scan documents for archival purposes for anyone that pays someone to do it. How can I tell any of the rest? Because you wrote it?



TL;DR

Computer Accurate Spacing is known as "Kerning." It's the stuff typewriters could only of ever dreamt to do.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)


I thought you said you were a typewrite expert? Are you familiar with the IBM Selectric, IBM Model C, IBM Model D, or Underwoods models? Are you familiar with the proportional spacing capabilities they had in the 50s? Suddenly I am filled with a great deal of doubt and I do remember reading several posts covering this. I will find them for you. I think you just busted yourself.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin
But, cool... I totally understand, you have no concept of cognitive thinking, or basic reasoning skills... and as such, I bet you aquire Cognitive Thinking experts to do all your thinking for you.... You're a tool.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)


School is out for summer already? This is not the least bit constructive and as someone claiming to be an expert on typewriters, computers, photos, and art of all varieties - sounding like a 15 year old girl does so little to build your credibility. I just want to point out to you that this is not how adults talk to each other and certainly now how a mature adult talks. Keep in that in mind during your next post when you add yet another area you are an expert in and expect people to believe you are saying anything true. I really hope we can all play nice from here. This sort of thing does more damage to you than it does hurt any posters here I am sure.


Originally posted by Laokin
I am not a birther, you are not a birther detector, stop trying to be one, you want me to be one, so you can go on a tangent about how stupid they are.


I am going to keep asking until I get an answer. What do you believe a "birther" is? Can you define it in your own words. You know you are not one so you must know what one is. I am just really not sure how it makes sense. I have to ask this because I am having a hard time following all these rumors and mistakes and lies - from all sides - when a lot of them come from people that seem to want to put as much distance between themselves and what they are actually saying as possible. I actually believe the truth is hidden right in there somewhere.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Antiquated1 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Laokin
No. I actually don't hate him.


But your participating in a campaign to insist he had his birth certificate forged. Right. You are more than welcome to rationalize your feelings about him to yourself. I can't stop you.


You can feel free to cruise all of my posts


Your arguments are full of nonsense. If you spent half as much time analyzing every corner of other birth certificates as you did Obama's, you'd find similar differences that would pop up in your head. The fact that you concluded in part that his birth certificate was a forgery due to it's "size" or the "lettering" from looking at a scanned image of his birth certificate is evident.

Obama's long form birth certificate is not a perfect illustration of what a birth certificate is suppose to look like. You have one view of how birth certificates are suppose to appear, you made up your mind about it, that's that.


How did I not actually examine it? I took the very same one they released to the public and examined it. It failed examination.


Yes, Obama's birth certificate failed your examination. Highly objective. No credentials, no experiences with Hawaiian birth certificates, we're suppose to disregard the verification frm Hawaiian authorities as false because his birth certificate failed your examination. What a high horse you sit on.


Still, not addressing the lack of the Hawaii State Seal either.


The various arguments made has been explained on this website time and time again. Go to this link, take the picture of Obama's long form birth certificate (or if you want, go onto the Hawaiian Health department website), copy, paste, and invert the colours of the birth certificate. You'll see that the seal will appear barely.
nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com...

If you actually held the birth certificate, you'd feel the seal. Should I arrange Hawaiian authorities to deliver Obama's birth certificate to you personally?


isn't good enough.


Nothing Obama does is good enough for people like you. Considering that no other president has released their long form birth certificate to the public, it's very telling.


And for Obama's Parents, maybe they weren't popular. I'm from New York, and I garauntee you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who remembers me, if I were to suddenly get super famous... maybe only my family and one other person? And how hard would it be to ask them to just go along with it for a while? Surely they would, wouldn't they be so proud their son is The President, so proud, that they don't ever speak about where he was born,


Oh goodness, now you've created our own explanation. Nice. So essentially, Obama's parents kept quiet about him being born in Kenya because they knew that one day he'd become president of the United States. This is logical to you?


It's Africa in '61 we are talking about here....


Yes. A 9 month old teenage was somehow allowed to get onto a week long flight to Kenya (with the ability to afford the plane tickets at the time mind you) only to rush right back to Hawaii in time for class right? In 1961? We are talking about Africa in 1961 ya know? How about the list of vaccines she had to endure before leaving? But this is logical to you right? Yes I know, you don't believe he was born in Kenya, but your assisting a conspiracy that holds that basis nevertheless.


I don't believe he was born in africa.


And here you are.

"Im not a birther but"
"I believe he was born in America anyway, but"
"Why doesn't he just release his long form birth certificate to end this all"

Wait a minute. Ignore the last one.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Southern Guardian because: (no reason given)


You're an instigator. I never asked for him to release his long form. He did. People said it looked fake. I am qualified to see if an image is digitally forged. This has nothing to do with it being a birthcert, this has to do with an image, that was tampered with.

I honestly never believed he was from africa, but you keep trying to insist and goat me into your silly argument, I figured I'd entertain, with hypothetical situations that could explain ways around your terrible logic. Bad logic is bad logic. So it mattered none, if you believe I believe he came from africa, since I was just trying to show you the error in your simpleton explanation as of why no other story could be possible.

Poor taste, I know.

Regardless, I never asked or hoped, or expected him to ever release a longform... afterall, they specifically states on the news and what have you, that one did not exist.

So when they say one doesn't exist, I'm like cool, I know that can happen -- could have gotten destroyed over the years in some fathomable way. But then they release one. And now I'm like... wait? Didn't they say this didn't exist? Now it does?

That's a little weird. Then people say it's fake.

Then I'm like, Oh -- guess what. It probably is, because it probably didn't exist, because they were probably honest the first time.

But the issue didn't go away, so they went ahead and made a fake and are swearing that it's real. (Because it really did exist, but doesn't anymore.)

Then they realize they can strategically use this for a running plank in the next election to attempt to secure his 2nd term.

This makes perfect sense to me. This is probably the truth. This is Occam's Razor. The image fails Forensic Image Analysis.

It's probably fake, but it's a non-issue, because it probably was real at one point. And his short form could of been the only real certificate he ever had.

Am I sitting here stating the short form was fake?

No.

Stop digging for a pit of anger that you will not find.

I am not a birther, you are not a birther detector, stop trying to be one, you want me to be one, so you can go on a tangent about how stupid they are.

I think the man should have just left it alone, and now that he brought it back -- and with a fake... it's alot harder to just ignore. I feel like the man should step up and admit it's fake, but explain why it is. But, the people wouldn't go for it, so he doesn't have a choice, but to stick to the official story that it's real.... Trust and all that jazz... So he got himself into a political hotseat, that he won't ever answer to, but will actually probably in reality gain voters in the polls out of this....

I'm still betting he's gonna win next election.

I think this was an election ploy, and that they told the truth the first time, but now he's doing it to convert sane republicans into Obama supporters.

I think it's brilliant, simple, elegant, but ultimately silly. Politics have come down to presidents creating fake stirs for public opinion... I cannot approve of this mockery.

I feel like it belongs on T.V. right after the jersey shore....

So, now you know.

Oh and, btw -- There is no seal on the one they released from the whitehouse, the long form. What you saw was a compression artifact in a resaved, reedited image. It is indeed present in the original image of the document, but since it's the actual source image, it's completely aparent when looked at under any kind of software that it's an image compression artifact caused by Adobe Destiller.

(That's the program that makes .pdf files by the way, the official release... is a pdf file.)

Ignore real evidence because you think I can't be smart enough to examine it. Awesome logic, you could just... ya know look at it yourself, and see if it makes sense to you, instead -- you simply just ignore it, and discredit.

OOOOOOOOOH.

I get it now. Disinfo agent? That how this game works?
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 03:49 AM
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Originally posted by Antiquated1

Originally posted by Laokin
But, cool... I totally understand, you have no concept of cognitive thinking, or basic reasoning skills... and as such, I bet you aquire Cognitive Thinking experts to do all your thinking for you.... You're a tool.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)


School is out for summer already? This is not the least bit constructive and as someone claiming to be an expert on typewriters, computers, photos, and art of all varieties - sounding like a 15 year old girl does so little to build your credibility. I just want to point out to you that this is not how adults talk to each other and certainly now how a mature adult talks. Keep in that in mind during your next post when you add yet another area you are an expert in and expect people to believe you are saying anything true. I really hope we can all play nice from here. This sort of thing does more damage to you than it does hurt any posters here I am sure.


Originally posted by Laokin
I am not a birther, you are not a birther detector, stop trying to be one, you want me to be one, so you can go on a tangent about how stupid they are.


I am going to keep asking until I get an answer. What do you believe a "birther" is? Can you define it in your own words. You know you are not one so you must know what one is. I am just really not sure how it makes sense. I have to ask this because I am having a hard time following all these rumors and mistakes and lies - from all sides - when a lot of them come from people that seem to want to put as much distance between themselves and what they are actually saying as possible. I actually believe the truth is hidden right in there somewhere.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Antiquated1 because: (no reason given)


A birther is some one who believes Obama is a kenyan plant who secretively is taking control of the country is some kind of conspiratorial reindeergame.

I just think, rather, KNOW, that last document was fake. I went to school for Composite Art and 3D Animation. Now I'm attending school for Programming. I worked in machine shops and car garage's, so that's where I learned to build engines. My Dad was an All Appliance repairman.... so he taught me how to fix everything from my fridge to my air conditioner. He currently sells those right now. I learned how to grow vegtables from my Dad as well, we used to have corn, tomatoes, grapes, all sorts of stuff... and I know how to grow it all. Me and my buddy thought it would be cool to learn how to make moonshine, so we did. Naturally we learned how to convert corn into alcohol. We then progressed to brewing our own beer. So yeah, I can make dynamite beer. As you can see, I didn't waste my life... I'm 24, and loved learning everything that I know.... Anything that I didn't know, I'd go learn. Just like I wanted to learn how to brew beer, I wanted to learn how to make I-phone games.... so I'm going to school for that.

I never made myself look like anything I'm not. I never didn't speak to you how you spoke to me. I always replied in the tone that you did. If I wasn't talking like an Adult, neither were you... and I apologize for stooping to your level. I'm as qualified as any when it comes to analyzing images to see if they were edited. Again, has nothing to do with the BC, just the official file they put out on the internet. The file on the internet, available publicly.... is heavily edited, in every field.

You don't even have to take my word for it, you can take any public forensic error level analyser and check it yourself. Hell, I even posted the results in a previous post. Again, even the program designed to pick out edited and modified images is detecting the official image released of the BC as heavily modified.

So, you are just avoiding the facts, and making wild assumptions about a person you don't know. This is a discussion forum, not a news source... I'm not trying to convince the world it's not real. The topic came up, I gave my analysis, and you chose to argue with me.

And.I.Am.Done.Now.

Have fun with yourself, and your next "birther" victim. (since you love calling people birthers, but aparently don't know what it means, as so you so selflessly admited, "I can't keep track of all these conspiracies.")

P.S.

Post count of 25, telling me what is going to hurt me?


I like the people on here, they are diverse, but I don't give a damn about what any of them think about me... I could careless, so why would I care about what you would consider what is going to hurt my posting record on ATS?

My posting record is actually pretty good, and I don't normally engauge in heavy debate with people, I give my opinions, people here respect them, and we move on.... You on the other hand, went after something you didn't understand... And it's left me quite... confused.



What are you?

If you think it's impossible I have a skillset so versatile... then I just feel sorry for you. I'm also learning how to celestial navigate, as per recommendation from another poster at this forum. He said it would be a good skill to learn, I looked into it, it is... and so now I am. That. Simple.

I suggest you try it.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 06:37 AM
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Originally posted by Laokin
A birther is some one who believes Obama is a kenyan plant who secretively is taking control of the country is some kind of conspiratorial reindeergame.


So that is an insult how? I thought a birther was just someone who doubted Obama was born in Hawaii. What would you call one of those people?


I just think, rather, KNOW, that last document was fake. I went to school for Composite Art and 3D Animation. Now I'm attending school for Programming. I worked in machine shops and car garage's, so that's where I learned to build engines. My Dad was an All Appliance repairman.... so he taught me how to fix everything from my fridge to my air conditioner. He currently sells those right now. I learned how to grow vegtables from my Dad as well, we used to have corn, tomatoes, grapes, all sorts of stuff... and I know how to grow it all. Me and my buddy thought it would be cool to learn how to make moonshine, so we did. Naturally we learned how to convert corn into alcohol. We then progressed to brewing our own beer. So yeah, I can make dynamite beer. As you can see, I didn't waste my life... I'm 24, and loved learning everything that I know.... Anything that I didn't know, I'd go learn. Just like I wanted to learn how to brew beer, I wanted to learn how to make I-phone games.... so I'm going to school for that.


STOP!

I cannot say this anymore and if you fail to comprehend it this time, it tells me all I need to know about you. Stop telling me what an expert you are in everything. No offense and nothing personal but until I see a diploma you are not qualified to do anything but type words. You can claim all kinds of things. I can only hope you are also intelligent enough to understand why that is rather worthless, even more so in a thread that is all about Obama producing the documents to prove he is who he says he is. I never believe anyone online that just claims things. Not you, not people on the other side of the argument, nobody.

You already proved that you are not the expert you claimed to be in typewriters by completely missing several models available in the 50s-60s that had proportional spacing. You understand why that puts some doubts in my mind about these claims made with no paperwork don't you?


I never made myself look like anything I'm not. I never didn't speak to you how you spoke to me.


Again, nothing personal but read that last sentence and then tell me how you are an expert in all kinds of things. I am looking for truth which needs to have credibility and facts behind it. I am not looking to play post tag so someone can chest puff.


I always replied in the tone that you did. If I wasn't talking like an Adult, neither were you... and I apologize for stooping to your level. I'm as qualified as any when it comes to analyzing images to see if they were edited. Again, has nothing to do with the BC, just the official file they put out on the internet. The file on the internet, available publicly.... is heavily edited, in every field.


Not even the many fields you claim to be an expert in actually apply to what would be necessary to make that judgement so you will have to forgive me if I shed little thought on your opinions. Another good tip for trying to back up the expertise you claim to have would not to claim you write like a child because "well you did it first!"

If I wrote anything that came across in any such tone please post it or U2U me with it and I will do my best to make amends. I have to say I honestly do not believe you. All I have gotten from you so far is immature sounding lectures on how qualified you are in all kinds of things that do not matter. Turns out with a few minutes on google I knew more about typewriters than you did but that was not an attack. That was me attempting to be accurate. I hate how much flak I seem to be getting for wanting to be accurate.


You don't even have to take my word for it, you can take any public forensic error level analyser and check it yourself. Hell, I even posted the results in a previous post. Again, even the program designed to pick out edited and modified images is detecting the official image released of the BC as heavily modified.


I know it has been modified. There is really no question of that. It was a black and white entry in a book from 40 years ago. It is not a legible green certificate. Are you congratulating yourself for using software to detect something that was never in question?

Really, if you are saying it was manipulated based on your expertise and therefor it is fake then I have no idea what to do with the fact that I knew it was manipulated before I stepped foot in my first birther thread because I knew it was a black and white entry in a book and that was not what we were looking at.

Would it bother any of you to know that most of the arguments I have read in the last couple of days have done more to convince me the birther stuff is all just a bunch of stuff like that? I mean, the first gotcha was "it is a certificate of live birth, not a birth certificate." Where did that argument go? What is the title of the long form? See, its guesses and wishes based on a lack of knowledge that is fueling most of the arguments I am reading.

If this seems combative or rude then I apologize but I am actually trying to help you understand how many of you are steering people away. I am all ears and still open to possibilities but I really feel like there is a huge pile of dirt on top that needs to be sifted through.

I mean I saw that youtube video with the phone call to grandma in a really old thread and it was debunked. Then I saw it again in a kind of old thread and it was debunked. Then I just saw it posted again like a week ago or so. This kind of stuff is just clogging up the truth and it is making it easier for people like me to just accept that it is probably all just the same junk.


So, you are just avoiding the facts, and making wild assumptions about a person you don't know. This is a discussion forum, not a news source... I'm not trying to convince the world it's not real. The topic came up, I gave my analysis, and you chose to argue with me.


What?

What facts have I avoided? I am looking for facts. I certainly hope I did not miss any. All I really see from you is you telling us how smart and experienced you are in a different topic each post and you are only 24 and still going to school for some of it. Are those the facts I am avoiding? What have I assumed? Are you even still talking to me or did you jump to someone else?

I am not trying to have a forum pissing match. If you feel I assumed something wrongly about you, what was it? If I avoided a fact, what was it? You avoided that typewriter fact. That is a specific fact I can point to. I want all the facts I can get.

Please do not try to find reasons to just argue. I am trying to be as even keeled as I can be but you seem to think I am some kind of monster for things I am not sure ever actually happened. Let's just stick to facts?

Can we just stick to facts? Please?


And.I.Am.Done.Now.


Ok, I am sorry if you take a little offense but given all the writing underneath that, I have to add this.


I would have edited that part out before the next 4 chapters. OK sorry, I could not resist.


Have fun with yourself, and your next "birther" victim. (since you love calling people birthers, but aparently don't know what it means, as so you so selflessly admited, "I can't keep track of all these conspiracies.")


I know what it means. I was not sure what you thought it meant. Clearly we think it means something different. The thing we both agree on though is that no one can explain what is negative in connotation about it. You do not believe Obama was born in Hawaii but you are not a birther. You are probably the only person that can help me take that seriously and do something positive in return about it.

I am not looking to insult anyone with that word at all. That is why I keep asking what is bad about it. I just do not want to write out "people that have doubts about where Obama was born" each time. Would you?


P.S.

Post count of 25, telling me what is going to hurt me?


What in god's name are you talking about?


I like the people on here, they are diverse, but I don't give a damn about what any of them think about me... I could careless, so why would I care about what you would consider what is going to hurt my posting record on ATS?


I seriously have no idea what you are talking about. I honestly down. I feel like I just walked into a fight you were having before I got here. Are you reading things I wrote or things other people wrote or what?


My posting record is actually pretty good, and I don't normally engauge in heavy debate with people, I give my opinions, people here respect them, and we move on.... You on the other hand, went after something you didn't understand... And it's left me quite... confused.


I thought you were done? A while ago. I have no idea what you are talking about.




What are you?

If you think it's impossible I have a skillset so versatile... then I just feel sorry for you. I'm also learning how to celestial navigate, as per recommendation from another poster at this forum. He said it would be a good skill to learn, I looked into it, it is... and so now I am. That. Simple.

I suggest you try it.
edit on 22-5-2011 by Laokin because: (no reason given)


Sure you are. Listen, I have no problem believing you are learning all kinds of things. I just do not believe people online just because they say something. This post from you leaves me with further doubts. If you are concerned so little with what other people think of you, please stop responding to me just to tell me all about you. I do not need to know anything about you. I just want facts. Facts can be backed up. If you want to back up your resume then be my guest but otherwise how about we just stick to the facts, ok?

See, I am trying to hard not to get caught up in the partisan bickering in these threads and I feel like you are trying your best to pick a fight where there is not one to be had. Nothing against you are anyone else. I do not believe claims online from random internet screen names. Not from anyone about anything.

Besides, you have talked more about you than anything else and I thought the topic was Obama. Please get back on topic and just go with facts ok.

If people are going to openly get angry because I am not interested in rumors or unfounded claims them let me know now so I do not bother getting into this sort of thing anymore. It is exhausting and we certainly gained no ground.

For kicks, this is how this phrase is supposed to be used.

I am done.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 07:27 AM
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the birther meme is perpetuated by the DNC, meant to make anyone with an actual, substantive and fact/reality-based critique of policy look crazy by association.

and it's working.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 08:55 AM
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Yawn.....some people just have absolutely nothing else to do with their time. Maybe you're time would be better well spent by working for a candidate that can run against BO next year..just sayin



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 09:05 AM
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So I just got my copy of "Where's the Birth Certificate."

I am not sure when I will get time to read it exactly but I have it. I am really surprised there not full reviews on it on ATS from the birther group yet. So if anyone has any questions, I at least have it handy where I can look something up or whatnot. I just thought I would put that out there since I had not seen any birthers saying they had it yet.



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:32 PM
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This thread should be merged with this one (see link below). They both have many of the same arguments.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 22 2011 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by mrsoul2009
Yawn.....some people just have absolutely nothing else to do with their time. Maybe you're time would be better well spent by working for a candidate that can run against BO next year..just sayin


Why are you taking your time to follow this thread if you aren't interested in the arguments? I don't understand your comment.



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