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The Arab Spring Comes to Israel

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posted on May, 17 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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A great photo essay ,from Foreign Policy magazine, on Nakba Day in and around Palestine/Israel. Prepare to see a lot more of this over the coming months....

www.foreignpolicy.com...























The Israeli administration under Netanyahoo & Liebermen do not seem to be able to remove their heads from the sand and take a look around, the world as they have known it is over.

This coalition of the extreme right needs to fall quickly. Kadima under Livini can take its place.

They are by no means the moderates that they present themselves as but they are vulnerable to outside pressure from the US & European Union, especially with the General Assembly vote on admitting Palestine as a new nation to the UN hovers on the horizon.




The world knows that Israel has gotten away with killing and torturing tens of thousands of Palestinians over the past 63 years because of the unconditional support of Washington. Perhaps the next UN General Assembly in September will be a game-changer. A new, really representative, really sovereign Egyptian government will definitely be a game-changer, because - to Tel Aviv's horror - it will be the absolute opposite of Mubarak.


www.atimes.com...

It's peace or bust for Israel. The Palestinians 1948 Independence Day is coming.

edit on 17-5-2011 by Peruvianmonk because: Picture


edit on 17-5-2011 by Peruvianmonk because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-5-2011 by Peruvianmonk because: Spelling




posted on May, 17 2011 @ 03:23 PM
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What do fellow ATS heads think of the last few days and build up to September?

What are the possible scenarios in regards to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 03:31 PM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
What do fellow ATS heads think of the last few days and build up to September?

What are the possible scenarios in regards to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict?


There is only one scenario that is being prepared:

Israel + 200 + nukes + Arabs bent on jihad = Destruction of the entire Arab/muslim M.E = Millions of refugees pouring across the Med into Europe to start the grand civil war/jihad = Russia sitting on the borders of a defenceless and de-populated Europe and the M.E.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 03:36 PM
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Yeah. Just as it did in 1948. Palestinian leadership cannot build their state if all they really want is to destroy Israel. It does not work like this. So this "spring" is as pointless as declaration of war on Israel in 1948.
As for Kadima - last two Israeli wars ,Lebanon and in Gaza, were with Kadima in charge. So i think it is not very good wish.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by JohhnyBGood
 


Hmmm. Seems a bit far fetched to me. Unlikely there will be a war between Israel and other countries in the region i.e. Syria, Egypt, although not impossible due to the political flux within these nations.

The sting can be taken out of the whole region if Israel allows the Palestinians to create a real state and a peace is made between Israel & Syria. This would leave Iran very isolated and of little threat to either Israel or the arab nations.

Either way the General Assembly is clearly going to vote for the admittance of Palestine in to the UN, thus making all Israeli settlements & incursions on Palestinian land as set out by the Oslo accords illegal.




The outgoing head of Israel's Shin Bet, Yuval Diskin, recently said that he was "very worried" about Palestinian statehood in September. The Palestinians are expected, by some rough estimates, to win 140 votes, whereas all they will need at the UN is 128.


www.atimes.com...

Sanctions will eventually be placed on Israel as a result. Is this waht the Israeli government want for their people?



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


As i said Kadima are no doves but are presenting themselves as such to the rest of the world and would in my opinion be forced to live up to their words.

I do not believe the Palestinian leadership want to destroy Israel. The PA led by Fatah has been working in almost a collaborating role with the Israelis in keeping the peace on the West Bank.

Hamas have some hardliners in their military branch who would like to see Israel gone (It's not going to happen though is it?). They also have a strong political wing which will agree to a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders as their leaders have stated before. This would basically amount to a de facto acceptance of the state of Israel.




The Hamas movement said yesterday that it had repeatedly told the United States it would accept the creation of a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.


www.irishtimes.com...




Hamas would be willing to accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders, a leader of the militant group, Mahmoud Zahar, told the Palestinian news agency Ma'an on Wednesday, adding, however, that Hamas would never recognize Israel since such a move would counter the group's aim to "liberate" all of Palestine.


www.haaretz.com...

How would Hamas ever hope to liberate the whole of Israel? It's just street talk.

Either way the Netanyahoo administration would be negotiating with Fatah not Hamas.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 





I do not believe the Palestinian leadership want to destroy Israel. The PA led by Fatah has been working in almost a collaborating role with the Israelis in keeping the peace on the West Bank.

This is of course true. Or was, of course. true. Now PA is getting in the same government with Hamas , and Hamas goals are not Palestinian state in borders of 1967. Not even 1948.
A speech Hamas leader gave on the same "spring" day we actually discuss he did not mention that he wants Palestinians to get their own state. He mentioned however that there are great hopes of ending Zionist project in Palestine, that Hamas will never recognize Israel and that union of Hamas and Fatah will allow liberation of occupied land.
Not creation of Palestinian state, again.
So even if Israel under whoever will speak with Fatah, Hamas still will be part of Palestinina government.
It is like good cop/bad cop routine pasted on political background and nothing good will come out of it. Another 1948 , maybe.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 05:12 PM
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Actually it doesn't seem like it belongs in the "Arab spring" category at all, as the Palestinians are an occupied people, and the Arabs in Israel aren't about to overthrow the regime.

Also it seems like the protests are civil and peaceful on all sides, aside from a few incidents (again on both sides).

The Palestinians are on their way to a nation, "3rd intifada" or not, so there's really not much point in stirring up anything.

With respect,
Eliad.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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Looking forward to the day Palestinians receive their independence.
Not because I care about the Palestinians and their goals, but because this way, even the most puny mortar shell or a qassam rocket on Israel's soil will be seen as a declaration of war, which will bring a real response from the IAF/IDF.
A response so real, it would put a whole different meaning to the term disproportional retaliation.

Maybe then the leftist community that lost their sanity due to their bleeding hearts will have something actual to moan about.

The only scenario that will come out of an independent Palestinian state with Hamas in charge will be BAD, PAINFUL, and FULL OF BLOOD.
Hamas will at some point or another fire something at Israel, and that will probably be it's last chapter in the story.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 07:19 PM
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Poor Israel.
Hundreds of millions of dollars from the U.S. ANNUALLY, and what do they have to show for it?

Well, how about looking at the map?

The Maps Tell the True Story

Israel is nation building, with U.S. dollars. Israel PAYS our government "representatives" to support Israel with money and arms. Of course, some of that money comes BACK into the politicians reelection campaign, and all is well with Congress and Israel.
While Americans suffer....

Screw Israel. They are a plague upon the Earth. They are not our FIRST line of defense against radical Islam, they are a big reason why radical Islam has the following it enjoys. Israel cares about ISRAEL, and that is all, it is quite clear.

Plus, they did 911, the USS Liberty, and who knows what else. Screw them.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 04:28 AM
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reply to post by ZeroKnowledge
 


The Israelis wil be negotiating with Fatah, that has been made clear. Who cares what Hamas thinks? Its not going to happen is it.

How exaclty would the Palestinians even start to take over Israel?



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 04:32 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 


Lovely.

Your hatred for the Palestinians is pretty clear. It must be the deep founded guilt they stir up in you when you look at them without a state or future mainly becasue of Israeli action in stiffening them economically & politically.

Hamas will not be taking over anything. They have become pretty unpopular in Gaza and would lose in a nationwide Palestinian vote, which is what is due to take place in the next year or so. Sure they would be a power and have seats in parliament but just look at the nut jobs that are in the Israeli coalition at the moment.

Some elements of Hamas look patently moderate in comparision.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 04:45 AM
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reply to post by Eliad
 


The Palestinians should continue to keep the movement at the forefront of the worlds attention with continuing protests.

A state yes, but what kind of state? Some cobbled together Bantustan like territory which doesn't control its airspace or borders? That is not good enough.


You don't get anything given to you in this world for free, (unless your Israel) you have to fight for and demand it.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 05:47 AM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Your hatred for the Palestinians is pretty clear. It must be the deep founded guilt they stir up in you when you look at them without a state or future mainly becasue of Israeli action in stiffening them economically & politically.

Guilt? Pfff. I have no guilt for the people who declared war on my grandfathers a day after the declaration of independence. I simply don't like them very much and couldn't care less about their future.
I'm allowed not to like them, aren't I? Just like some Russians hate Americans (and vice versa) or some Turks that hate Israelis.


Hamas will not be taking over anything. They have become pretty unpopular in Gaza and would lose in a nationwide Palestinian vote, which is what is due to take place in the next year or so. Sure they would be a power and have seats in parliament but just look at the nut jobs that are in the Israeli coalition at the moment.

You think their popularity matters whatsoever? They have the funds and the guns, they are in charge. The people of Gaza will do what Hamas tells them to do, be it to hide missiles in their homes or use their backyards as launching areas - regardless of how much they agree with it. When someone collides with Hamas in Gaza he ends up in pieces.


Some elements of Hamas look patently moderate in comparision.

And you say that after being in Gaza how many times exactly..?


As long as there's an extremist terror organization in power in Gaza, it's better for the Palestinians not to have independence else they'd end up wiped out of this planet unfortunately (for them).
I will have no problem at all with a neighboring Palestinian state as long as it's not under the rule of an organization under Hamas, and as long as they publicly declare they recognize Israel and the Jewish entity in it.
edit on 18-5-2011 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 06:12 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 


Do you just not like or hate the Palestinians? Why?

If some Turks do not now like Israel it would be because they killed innocent Turkish civilians on the Mavi Mamara and because of their policies towards the Palestinians. Turkey used to be Israel's main ally in the region before this.

If some Russians now hate Americans it would be because of the economic shock doctrine that was put in to effect at the urging of American economists like Milton Friedman following the collapse of the U.S.S.R. and is still affecting the country today.

I will repeat the question, why do you not like/hate the Palestinians?

The Zionists organisation declared war on the Palestinians as soon as their intention for displacing the Palestinians became clear, and that was decades before 1948.

Why should the PA recognise Israel as a Jewish state when it clearly isn't? What about the 20% of its population, who are Arab, what will happen to them? What democratic nation defines itself through its ethnicity?

What has the guns and missiles Hamas own got to do with anything? Fatah also have an American trained security force, so what. The point is both groups have agreed to elections within the year. Each side knows that the Palestinian population as a whole will not put up with any more violence between the two sides.

What has going to the Gaza Strip got anything to do with that statement? Hamas are not roundly killing civilians or attacking Israel wholesale. For a government in power in the situation they are in, under strict economic & political blockade, their moderation is clear.

In fact they are under attack from groups within the Strip for not instituting Islamic Law.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 

Do you just not like or hate the Palestinians? Why?

I don't hate them, I just don't like them. Most of them are barbaric and too religious for my liking. Call me racist if you must and see if I care. Some are nice tho.


If some Turks do not now like Israel it would be because they killed innocent Turkish civilians on the Mavi Mamara and because of their policies towards the Palestinians. Turkey used to be Israel's main ally in the region before this.

Israel killed them because they insisted to try and break a naval blockade, illegal or not. A naval blockade is not something to mess with, and the message went across perfectly well.
I think I've got a good reason to hate the Palestinians. I know at least two people that died from terror attacks. I'm sure the Palestinians don't like me from the time I served in Gaza.


I will repeat the question, why do you not like/hate the Palestinians?

I don't like people that attack my country.


Why should the PA recognise Israel as a Jewish state when it clearly isn't? What about the 20% of its population, who are Arab, what will happen to them? What democratic nation defines itself through its ethnicity?

Israel is a Jewish state whether you like it or not. The one million Arabs (out of 7 million) are perfectly fine with the country being a Jewish one. They are making a good living here, much much better than they would be living in any other country in the area. The recognition of Israel as a Jewish state does not mean that all other religious sects are worthless, it just means that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a legitimate country and any attack on it's soil is a declaration of war, and not "freedom fighting" as they conveniently call it nowdays.
And knowing that, they will consider any mortar on Israel 100 times before they launch it.

This has nothing to do with the remaining Israeli Arab citizens which will be treated the same way they are treated now, and that's equally.



What has the guns and missiles Hamas own got to do with anything? Fatah also have an American trained security force, so what. The point is both groups have agreed to elections within the year. Each side knows that the Palestinian population as a whole will not put up with any more violence between the two sides.

You are deluding yourself if you even consider the possibility of Fatah being able to stand up to Hamas at all. Don't make me laugh.


A little question for you - do you support an independent Palestinian state led by Hamas while knowing Hamas does not recognize Israel's right to exist and will attack at some time or another?
Wouldn't you prefer the Palestinians to have a government which is not a part of an armed militia?
edit on 18-5-2011 by IsraeliGuy because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by IsraeliGuy
 


Most of them are barabaric and too religious eh? What a disengenous statement.


Which ones are attacking your country? The ones at the checkpoints who can't get to their places of work or homes without being humilated? The ones hit by stray & purposeful Israeli missiles in Gaza? Your country is attacked with unguided missiles becasue of the 63 years of occupation & brutality.

I am sorry for the grief the loss of your friends must have casued you but did the entire Palestinian population play a part in the operation that killed your two friends? Where as the majority of the Israeli population has played a part in the occupation through military service, such as in Gaza like yourself.

Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in your country and youmust be aware of this. They may make a good living, but they do not have the full protection of Israeli law and are basically not allowed to crictise the Israeli state without a visit from Shin Bet, that goes for a lot of Israeli Jews critical of Israel as well.



1. Anyone denying the existence of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state faces imprisonment.




2. Government support for student tuition fees is available only for those who serve in the Israel Defence Forces.




5. The Nakba Law, which makes it illegal for citizens inside Israel to organize demonstrations on the anniversary of the creation of the Palestinian refugee catastrophe.



4. An amendment to the nationality law so that the Interior Minister has the right to revoke the citizenship of people who violate allegiance to the state of Israel.


Who do you think these laws are aimed at?

www.middleeastmonitor.org.uk...

I don't understand what kind of living they could acheive in neighbouring states has got to do with? They aren't citizens of these nations. They live in Israel, they are Israeli citizens living in a prosperous, fair, shining beacon of the region aren't they?
edit on 18-5-2011 by Peruvianmonk because: Spelling.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 05:38 PM
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reply to post by Peruvianmonk
 


Nothing that can be achieved by violence can't be achieved by peaceful manners, I think Fatah and the West Bank sort of prove my point- It was only when they put down their guns that they moved forward, and now they're on their way to a state, again, by peaceful means.

Hamas, on the other hand, is not doing very well.



A state yes, but what kind of state? Some cobbled together Bantustan like territory which doesn't control its airspace or borders? That is not good enough.


You're saying the West Bank is a Bantustan? You've clearly never been to or have seen the West Bank.

A state which Israel does not control is all they need.



You don't get anything given to you in this world for free, (unless your Israel) you have to fight for and demand it.


Ah, yes, clearly the Jews and the Israelis have gone through no hardships, and haven't had to fight for anything in their lives..


With respect,
Eliad.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:27 AM
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reply to post by Eliad
 


The West Bank is carved up by Israeli Jewish only roads, the separation wall and numerous checkpoints, if ALL of that isn't dismantled and every Israeli soldier and settlement removed from the miserly 22% of Palestine that is now left for the Palestinians to inhabit then yes it will be continue to be a Bantustan. I do not understand how you cannot see that.

I am not talking about the past I am talking about now, The Zionist Organisation have what they wanted, a Jewish state in Palestine. They fought for it and dispossessed hundreds of thousands of people of their homes. Congratulations.

Today Israel receives 3 billion dollars in military from the U.S. annually with no strings attached. Israel also enjoys America's veto power on the Security Council for every resolution passed against Israel for violations of international law. All this angers the world towards America.

Talk about getting something for nothing.



posted on May, 19 2011 @ 03:44 AM
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The Arab Spring is going cause a Palastinian Fall.
Just my 2 drachmas



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