The Bible Is A Forgery

Originally posted by leejohnbarnes
I shall log back in tomorrow morning in the hope of reading the Gnosis from you.

Sorry, Ace. You want the Gnosis, you're going to get the full Gnostic experience -- you have to prove yourself "worthy" to receive it and pay my price for mentoring you.

I've already named the price:

Heck, if you had the backbone to just say "I don't know what the gnosis was", I'd have been happy to tell you.

reply to post by leejohnbarnes

1) links to them

2) evidence they exist other than as figments of your imagination

I certainly wish the Gnostic texts were figments of my imagination. They are not, however they are 2nd - 4th century texts.

reply to post by SaberTruth

It's so refreshing to see someone with your extensive knowledge take those with extensive bluster to the woodshed, with both patience and credible sources.

It is a pity though that the OP's vocabulary is so underdeveloped that he doesn't realize he's being taken to the woodshed. But I agree, Adj is probably the most knowledgeable expert on the Gnostic heresy and history we have on ATS. I learn a lot from his posts that I wasn't aware of.

He didn't come back?

Damn, this thread was getting interesting. Funny too!

*sigh*

reply to post by Tennysonbass

I'm not saying this to create any disagreements and quarrels, but all that this does is show weakness to your argument and could render further statements with merit void by others who see you're basic mistakes here as a way to completely invalidate your further thoughts.

Yeah, you are certainly right.

I've got my own copy of the King James Version of the Bible, so I figured I would start their with my studies.

reply to post by adjensen


Thank you for the insight, I am definitely going to be spending some time researching all of this.

reply to post by SaberTruth


Thanks. Arguing with the uninformed isn't really my favourite thing to do, and I'm more of a theologian than anything else, but understanding theology means understanding its roots, and that means reading not just the Bible, not just the Church Fathers, but the detractors of the faith, from the earliest heretics to modern day critics and non-believers. Along the way, I developed an interest in church history and the development of both the Canon and Christian Orthodoxy. I'm nowhere near the biblical scholar that some like NOTurTypical are, but I get by.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Shhhhhhhhh!!!! Let him continue to dig his own grave, it's much more hilarious this way.

Wow, a lot has transpired since I was away. Seems someone has goaded him into a state agitation.

reply to post by shamaniski


Well let me first give you a verse.

bible.cc...

Most Scientists agree that the theory of the Big Bang is somewhat accurate.

en.wikipedia.org...

What they can not tell you is what was before the Big Bang. They seem to say there was a singularity, ie Black Hole. How can a black hole in which light cannot escape from explode? Its gravity is supposed to be so big it bends the fabric of space/time to a single point. In other words when we really get down to it, science at it's most highest is only conjecture. Science still has trouble explaining gravity, what causes it, or how it is broadcast. As far as our understanding of the Universe, we still have a lot to go. They theorize that in the first moments of the inception of the Universe time was dilated, atoms did not exist, in fact even the subatomic particles that make up atoms where still being formed. Hence at forming these laws, these things we take for granted, did not even exist. Why did these laws form, scientists have no idea, they can conjecture what happened, by looking at the cosmic microwave background radiation, and looking at the galaxies, spin and momentum, BUT THEY CAN NOT TELL YOU WHY. In other words what they say is we where all once a big black hole, but we don't know why it exploded or why it happened this way. But just don't take my word for it read the links.

science.howstuffworks.com...
www.universetoday.com...
www.fortunecity.com...

Have a youtube vid as well.



Science I don't ever think will be able to explain God. Does belief in the Big Bang exclude a belief in God? No. Most evidence appears to conclude that the Big Bang actually happened. If it happened, can it not be God's own work? Can I explain the Big Bang? No I can't, and neither can most scientists. We can't explain how the rules of the Universe work, and we certainly can't explain how the Universe formed, when all the laws of the Universe where either still developing or didn't exist at all.

Lets have another verse.

bible.cc...

All right, now since I have explained sciences limitations, I will return to the subject of miracles. Let us start with an easy one. Moses parting the Red Sea.

bible.cc...

Evidently a strong wind blew the sea back. How did the wind blow that way, only one way I can explain that. God caused it to happen.

revision3.com...

Hey didn't the bible just say that God caused a wind to blow? I guess ill give you another video.

vodpod.com...

Well, seems there are chariot wheels on the bottom of the red sea. Did someone want to go spelunking in a chariot? Probably not.

Next let us examine a miracle of Jesus.

bible.cc...

So he prayed, blessed the fish and rolls. Then gave them to his disciples.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Hey didn't Jesus create more fish? That's a violation of both the laws of energy and of mass. But they are really the same thing, E=mc^2.

Now to the point miracles can not be explained by science. They are outside the realms of science. Science and mathematics cannot explain everything. Would you use philosophy to explain why rain falls? The same is true with God. Science cannot explain god. We can look at his mighty works and be amazed at the complexity of his creation.

Science can not explain God. So should a belief in science preclude a belief in God. No, he is the ultimate scientist, and mathematician. He created these laws, and can violate any of them when he so chooses. This is what a miracle is!

So now, I have a science question for you. How did the Big Bang happen? How did we go from a singularity, ie black hole, to have a still expanding Universe?

reply to post by Akragon


I am not religious but consider myself spiritual. Most religions and philosophies have an inner core of truth. There are many paths to God. Sometimes I feel that atheists are closer to God than many of us. They do not have that indocrination that many religious followers have and usually seek an inner or logical truth. We are all unique, we all have different upbringings and experiences. Like a child your heart must be then you are free eternally. Don't over complicate that which is simple within your beingness. The more you look at a problem the greater the problem becomes. The time has come to disocrinate ourselves. Whatever religion or philosophy you follow may your God , Science or Logic be with you!

To me what is important is that we have free will (or we think we do, another topic), that there is peace, harmony, love and understanding between all. We have more in common that not in common.
God, Science,Logic all have a similar objective, peace, the improvement, increased understanding and unity of our human race, to develop in peace, love and harmony. Anyone would disagree?
With peace and love

reply to post by leejohnbarnes

You appear to be incapable of independent thought.
You seem to see only what you want to see.
You appear only believe only what you are told.
I define that a tragic.
Jesus also thought for himself and tried to free man.
Thats why they killed him.

I am not on trial here. It is you who are closed minded. I have taken what you have put forth and weighed it with the centuries of scholars who have come to the same conclusion, Jesus is the Son of God.

John 1 (American Standard Version) John 1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. 6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. 9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. 15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me. 16 For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 19 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou

Originally posted by peacefulwarrior3
reply to post by Akragon

 

I am not religious but consider myself spiritual. Most religions and philosophies have an inner core of truth. There are many paths to God.

John 14:6-- "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

Acts 4:12-- "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Sometimes I feel that atheists are closer to God than many of us. They do not have that indocrination that many religious followers have

Indoctrination can take many forms, and not all of them are necessarily religious. I see no difference between the pressure in certain circles to conform to a particular set of (non)beliefs and that to conform to a particular set of beliefs. The key for anyone is to be well-informed and to admit it when there is more than one possible solution to a problem, be it philosophical, scientific, experiential, or whatever. The best test of any claim to be open-minded is how a person reacts to disagreement, and atheists have as much of a problem with tolerance as any religious zealot. Neither do atheists have a corner on the market of logic or intelligence or education.

Truth and fact are not found through popularity but are independent of our wishes. I cannot turn water to wine by wishing, or fooling myself into tasting wine that really isn't there. We are in this physical world, not to be fooled or toyed with, but to accept and work with. A world where "wishes are horses" would soon find itself annihilated through the billions of conflicting wishes of mankind, and no one could remain sane for long in a world whose reality is as fickle as what we may have had for dinner last night.

I accept the world I live in but don't limit it to only the physical. So what I'm saying is that there is a balance between the physical and the spiritual; one does not negate the other and they are not opposed to each other. We cannot create our own truths or facts, but we can decide what to do with them. What matters most to God is not what we accomplish but who we choose to become, and we will be judged* according to the measure we used for others in this life. I think that's rational, fair, and realistic.

*Judgment Day is not for the purpose of deciding between heaven and hell; that decision is made when we leave this physical world, and it is based entirely on what we did with Jesus (John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.") Instead, the purpose of judgment is to decide either the rewards for the saved or the punishments for the lost. Because of Jesus our sins cannot prevent us from being forgiven in this life if we accept Jesus as Lord, but it does not mean we lose our individuality in the next life, or escape the consequences of our individual actions. I have more detail at my blog, links to which are in my signature.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by peacefulwarrior3
reply to post by Akragon

 

I am not religious but consider myself spiritual. Most religions and philosophies have an inner core of truth. There are many paths to God.

John 14:6-- "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

Acts 4:12-- "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

Sometimes I feel that atheists are closer to God than many of us. They do not have that indocrination that many religious followers have

Indoctrination can take many forms, and not all of them are necessarily religious. I see no difference between the pressure in certain circles to conform to a particular set of (non)beliefs and that to conform to a particular set of beliefs. The key for anyone is to be well-informed and to admit it when there is more than one possible solution to a problem, be it philosophical, scientific, experiential, or whatever. The best test of any claim to be open-minded is how a person reacts to disagreement, and atheists have as much of a problem with tolerance as any religious zealot. Neither do atheists have a corner on the market of logic or intelligence or education.

Truth and fact are not found through popularity but are independent of our wishes. I cannot turn water to wine by wishing, or fooling myself into tasting wine that really isn't there. We are in this physical world, not to be fooled or toyed with, but to accept and work with. A world where "wishes are horses" would soon find itself annihilated through the billions of conflicting wishes of mankind, and no one could remain sane for long in a world whose reality is as fickle as what we may have had for dinner last night.

I accept the world I live in but don't limit it to only the physical. So what I'm saying is that there is a balance between the physical and the spiritual; one does not negate the other and they are not opposed to each other. We cannot create our own truths or facts, but we can decide what to do with them. What matters most to God is not what we accomplish but who we choose to become, and we will be judged* according to the measure we used for others in this life. I think that's rational, fair, and realistic.

*Judgment Day is not for the purpose of deciding between heaven and hell; that decision is made when we leave this physical world, and it is based entirely on what we did with Jesus (John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.") Instead, the purpose of judgment is to decide either the rewards for the saved or the punishments for the lost. Because of Jesus our sins cannot prevent us from being forgiven in this life if we accept Jesus as Lord, but it does not mean we lose our individuality in the next life, or escape the consequences of our individual actions. I have more detail at my blog, links to which are in my signature.

You have a very profound understanding of faith in God. As Jesus told his disciples when he asked who they thought he was, when they answered the Christ, he told them that it was the Father who reveled that to them.

Originally posted by Gibborium
You have a very profound understanding of faith in God. As Jesus told his disciples when he asked who they thought he was, when they answered the Christ, he told them that it was the Father who reveled that to them.

Thank you. :-) It is a gift, as you know, and available to anyone who asks. I can no more take credit for it than I could for having life.

Hey, what if your both right?


www.thechronicleproject.org...

reply to post by adjensen

I'm nowhere near the biblical scholar that some like NOTurTypical are, but I get by.

Noooooooo way, I'm still junior varsity in that department.

Hi Folks,

Back again.

Now then lets see if the Gnosis has been posted here .

Nope.

Ok then lets play your game, the way you want it played .

" I am sorry.

I do not know the Gnosis.

I am an idiot.

I am so much of an idiot I really need to you to enlighten me.

Please, please enlighten me."

See - I have now done exactly what you asked in order me to obtain the Gnosis that you claim you possess.

I have complied 100 % with what you asked for.

Now instead of just talking the talk, its time for you to walk the walk.

I await with mounting excitement the dispensation of your wisdom on the Gnosis to all of us on this thread as you promised to do.

Over to you oh wise one.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by adjensen

 

I'm nowhere near the biblical scholar that some like NOTurTypical are, but I get by.

Noooooooo way, I'm still junior varsity in that department.

A 'biblical scholar'.

Thats an interesting concept.

John 14:6-- "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"


I dont see Jesus saying in that statement that anyone can come to God through the Bible.

In fact Jesus says people can only come to God via Jesus himself - eg through being told the Gnosis by Jesus himself.

I dont see Jesus saying in John 14 :6 - ' You can come to God through reading the Bible, becoming a Christian, going to Church or learning by rote large chunks of the Bible and then merely repeating them nor by living in accord with only what the Bible says'

Do you ?

reply to post by leejohnbarnes


Was there a bible when Jesus lived? No

As far as i know Jesus didn't carry a Bible with him or any scriptures when he preached to the people.

I dont know if Jesus told us to read the Bible to learn about God. As far as i know he didn't. Jesus didn't even say a Bible would be made.