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Roswell Was Not An Alien Craft.

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posted on May, 17 2011 @ 01:34 AM
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While entertaining - the fundamental problem with things like this revolves around data/information/operational security.

Every program, regardless of compartmentalization methods and information handling protocols, has been leaked - to some extent or another - through the involved industries. The "government" and military do not have metallurgical experts and experienced parts designers. They contract - even for classified programs, because the companies that routinely work in these fields are often the best equipped to manufacture horizon technologies that are not practical for introduction into the market (see the research going into "metallic glass" - those methods can and probably will be applied to restricted access developmental programs within the next two years, applied to limited-production models within the next five-ten, and make their entry onto the civilian market a year or two following, after the government/military essentially subsidized the setup/tooling costs of the line - and see widespread use fifteen-twenty years from now).

It is nearly impossible to keep the technologies developed for defense purposes from eventually becoming common industry. RaDAR, for example - not just for predicting weather - they also sit on your counter in the form of a microwave-oven. Digital computers had huge backing from the military - computer systems that didn't run on potentially lethal voltages is always a plus - being able to fit a room of vacuum tubes into a box the size of a small refrigerator is also an improvement.

Sure - computer technology outpaces the military solutions developed around it. Your laptop GPU runs circles around the processing units used in the F-22's digital radar processing systems - at least in principle (depending upon the application - you may need to use another card or two to match the raw floating-point performance - but watt-per-FLOPS - you're getting a much better deal, and in a fraction of the space).

So... for all of this "alien" stuff to really be the -original- work of the military/government/etc - they must have a kind of operational security that is simply unprecedented - and have maintained it for well over 60 years.

Presuming the military is the 'source' of such sightings and technology - the only way it would not have leaked into the industry is if it was something sufficiently advanced as to be beyond replication. At which point - one can only conclude that definitive sightings of 'super-technological' craft that so profoundly challenge current engineering capabilities are not military or government projects to -develop- new/existing technology.

Tesla doesn't even have to enter into the equation. Yes, the man is a bit under-appreciated, but people often try to compensate for that by turning him into a deity. He had many good ideas - some of which were ahead of his time; one could make the same statement about Da Vinci or Ira Levin (read a few Ira Levin novels and get shivers up your spine about how spot-on the man has been about the course of society; he makes 1984 look like a call to Ms. Cleo).

We can argue all day about whether or not he built a "UFO" - there are several prominent individuals mentioned frequently on these forums who each propose they know how to build a "UFO" - and all of them cite completely different physics and each claim to have success. Many of them also have successful civilian careers and real and practical accomplishments.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about Roswell. It's one of the most popular incidents in "UFO history" - and also one of the more controversial (though certainly not the most). Determining what -really- happened there is likely a fruitless endeavor. I've watched people make stories up right in front of me when they think I am completely oblivious to what the truth is. I've seen people sensationalize their own memories or make things up to 'fill in the blanks' - because, socially, it's what we do (stories of "i don't quite remember..." don't have the same pizazz - we socially condition ourselves to make something up when we run across a blank).

On the other hand - it's kind of hard to say: "oh, the military released the recovered debris and some documents pertaining to the incident - and it was all devoid of alien artifacts." ... It's kind of like "Well, the guy in the ski mask said he didn't rob a bank and was kind enough to show us his pockets and back-pack were empty."

At the same time - it's lose-lose for the military. Nothing short of a 'flying saucer' is going to make those who believe Roswell was an alien/government-saucer crash that it was anything but. People will always ask: "but what else are they hiding?" Those who believe there is a coverup will never be convinced otherwise - because you can't really prove you are not hiding something.

So - personally, I wouldn't be surprised if either is the case. I find it rather improbable that the military could have kept a 'flying saucer' secret for so long (found or built) and to keep there from being any definitive evidence. But - if there was something worth sparing no expense to keep secret - an alien craft you have no way of replicating, yet, may be just that.

I wouldn't be surprised if the military was conducting experiments on recovered alien craft... I would just be impressed that they had kept it secret to the extent they have.

I would, however, be surprised if we designed and built the damned things ourselves, and not an ounce of it has leaked into the civilian industry (or the Chinese industry....)




posted on May, 17 2011 @ 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by Aim64C

Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about Roswell....


Nice thoughtful reply. I am curious since you are not sure what to think about Roswell, what do you think about the hundreds of flying saucer reports from all across the nation in the few months before and few months after Roswell?



I find it rather improbable that the military could have kept a 'flying saucer' secret for so long (found or built) and to keep there from being any definitive evidence. But - if there was something worth sparing no expense to keep secret - an alien craft you have no way of replicating, yet, may be just that.


Good speculation there. Besides the invaluable flight control system, have you considered the implications of the power plant and weapon system on this thing? At the very least they make our atomic bombs look like a firecracker.



I wouldn't be surprised if the military was conducting experiments on recovered alien craft... I would just be impressed that they had kept it secret to the extent they have.


The military implications alone make this worth hiding at all cost.

Add to the equation that current religion would be vaporized by the revelation (which still plays a major role even in today's problems), and that the blitz of daily sightings was clearly causing public 'hysteria' to increase at an alarming rate, and you now have the justification for official implementation of a coverup of unprecedented proportions.



edit on 17-5-2011 by A51Watcher because: the usual



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 04:18 AM
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reply to post by A51Watcher
 



Nice thoughtful reply. I am curious since you are not sure what to think about Roswell, what do you think about the hundreds of flying saucer reports from all across the nation in the few months before and few months after Roswell?


Any different than hundreds of UFO sightings leading up to and following the "Houston Lights" incident?

There's a sort of selective bias to watch out for. It's like when my father passed away suddenly and unexpectedly, and people started trying to compile together statements he had made in the days and weeks before he simply didn't wake up. They were looking for some kind of indication that he knew ahead of time, and pulling things from whatever context they could.

In the end - I don't think he really knew - consciously or subconsciously. He had a reputation for making some off-the-wall observations and comments, choosing one particular time to focus on tends to make those sorts of things stand out more, despite their regularity.

Similarly - if you choose a particular day to try and pick out UFO sightings - you're going to likely find more "than expected." Further - there is a sort of 'social bias' at work, too. A reporter picks up a story about an alien saucer crashing in the desert and it's front-page news in the national paper before the end of the week, and suddenly everyone has UFO-on-the-mind and is thinking back about every strange light or object they can think of.

But - again - if the military was testing something - you'd expect more UFO sightings and reports. Just as you would expect more sightings and reports after a UFO incident makes a national media buzz. Or, just as you would expect if aliens were conducting some kind of operation.

You can read into it whatever context you want. It "makes sense" from any angle. Everyone is simply going to choose to read into it the way they feel comfortable doing so. I am most comfortable speculating - so I tend to treat everything as a hypothetical proposition rather than try and pick one to state as truth. I can state that certain proposals are improbable due to the number of presumptions that must be made or real-world examples demonstrating similar things performing contrary to the proposed scenario... but it comes back to the difficulty of proving a negative - so there is always a degree of uncertainty.


Good speculation there. Besides the invaluable flight control system, have you considered the implications of the power plant and weapon system on this thing? At the very least they make our atomic bombs look like a firecracker.


That's not necessarily true. If we do have a machine that is capable of performing the described feats of many UFOs - then we are dealing with a system operating on mechanics unknown to the vast majority of industry and experts in the field - if the people utilizing it even understand the mechanics involved.

The system could require anywhere from celestial-scale amounts of power to less than a jet fighter. This becomes especially true if you begin exploring the more "weird" possibilities where concepts like conservation of energy/mass go out the window (or are so fundamentally altered as to render common understanding irrelevant).

But this is really going to get pretty fruitless, without having an actual craft to look at - it's kind of difficult to get into how powerful it may or may not be. Further - the most valuable technologies would not be in terms of how many armies it could waste in a single blast of its 'laser' - but in star-trek-like scanner capabilities, should they be present. That capability changes the face of urban warfare and espionage. Some of the most advanced devices out there today take hours to perform an infra-red scan of a building that can be used to 'look through walls' and identify machinery and other objects of interest. Something that can practically build you a CAD model of the whole building with sub-millimeter precision in a manner of seconds would make Tom Clancy scream like a school girl.


The military implications alone made this worth hiding at all cost.


From who?

The Manhattan Project - one of the craziest classified projects to date, both in scale and in success, was successfully infiltrated by the Soviet Union - in the small circle of people directing and coordinating development.

The media, at the time, didn't even have access to these people - most of the world wouldn't know their names for decades to come - much less in association to the atomic bomb.

So, if we're sitting here yip-yapping about UFOs and what certain popular figures in the R&D field back-in-the-day said about them... then you can be certain Russia was already keenly aware of the program and what kinds of success it was seeing. Their first generation of infra-red seeking missile was a direct copy of the early Aim-9 Sidewinder - part number and all.

If I were in charge back then - I'd have jammed that stuff into a warehouse and kept it as far away from operations as possible - the Russians were 'all up in our business' and simply working on it would have essentially guaranteed they would get a hold of it.

Which, interestingly enough - may be just what happened to recovered extra-terrestrial artifacts (presuming there have been some) - or other artifacts of mythic proportions (doesn't all have to be extra-terrestrial). Hidden from the very powers seeking to find it - possibly so well that it remains hidden to this day.

Sounds a bit like Warehouse 13, now that I think about it....


Add to the equation that current religion would be vaporized by the revelation


A rather baseless assertion.

People have two general responses to the unknown - awe or fear. Some would (and have already) proclaim aliens to be demons. Others have proclaimed them to be angels. I read a sci-fi short story where "aliens" were a sort of ascended state granted through enlightenment in Buddhism (though not necessarily the author's belief - it was an interesting read).

Some would abandon religion, yes - others would cling more strongly to it. Simply because some critter comes flying in from space doesn't mean people will (or should) start forsaking their ideals. It would be similar to instances where 'advanced' cultures have encountered more 'primitive' cultures. Some of the native Americans welcomed the new humans as gods/heroes from their history and religion - others responded to them with hostility. Some embraced the religious ideologies of the newcomers, others did not.

I doubt it will be much different on the extra-terrestrial scale. Though such a species capable of traversing the stars is likely post-scarcity and would not be coming to our planet looking for resources or to harass us - so, that's a plus. Though we also raise chickens and dogs to fight each other for our own enjoyment as spectators... so - we're not exactly off of the hook for an unpleasant encounter with ETs.


and that the blitz of daily sightings was clearly causing public 'hysteria' to increase at an alarming rate, and you now have the justification for official implementation of a coverup of unprecedented proportions.


Or, it could have been the crash of some kind of upper-atmospheric nuclear monitoring equipment - similar (but perhaps a bit more) to the story being told now.

When you stop and think about the implications of a project monitoring Russia's nuclear testing over their own airspace - there's plenty of reason to cover that up, too - even going so far as getting a few of the locals to tell tales about aliens.

Or it could be just about anything, to be blunt.

If you believe it was an alien crash - then the idea that everything we see now is a coverup is justified by the perceived impact of ET contact.

If you don't - then the cover-up and confusion was a masterful way of keeping the Russians from figuring out what we were really doing, and having them busy trying to break into programs that didn't exist.

Either one is perfectly valid until more concrete evidence is turned up. Then one may suddenly become far more probable over the other.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 04:27 AM
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I also don't think the Nazi's had metal you could bend all up and it would spring right back to normal either back then, no telling what they have now.....


Uhm, the Nazi's is no more.

It is quite possible that the Roswell incident was just a top secret military test that went wrong. There is just so many conspiracies, lies and half truths, mixed with the facts, that i think the truth to the whole incident got lost along the way.

Like much of these more "mysterious" topics, we might indeed never know the truth.

VVv



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 05:11 AM
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Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by A51Watcher
 


Any different than hundreds of UFO sightings leading up to and following the "Houston Lights" incident?


Yes. Very different. Silver discs clocked by theodolite doing 15,000 mph and then cutting 90° corners without slowing down during an era of vacuum tube technology. Also this was for -months-, -all across the nation-. Again, very different.

The rest of my reply was just pointing out which side of the fence you had just described, that I come down on, that you continue to straddle.

I also invite you to explore the differences between the Roswell incident and the Houston Lights incident. Vastly different. Did one crash and was recovered? Was this admitted to by every military man up the chain of command involved with the recovery? Were there 600+ witnesses to the alien nature of the event?

No. Of course not.

Was the nation thrown into a panic because of the daily blitz of sightings in Houston? No.

Did Trained observers like pilots scientists military men and the entire police force (on one particular day) all report 90° corners at terrific speeds from Houston? No.

Roswell and it's surrounding blitz is very different from any other 'incident'.

The rest of your speculation that I agreed with, you now seem to want to argue against.

I'll just stand back and let you argue with yourself.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 05:28 PM
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reply to post by A51Watcher
 



Yes. Very different. Silver discs clocked by theodolite doing 15,000 mph and then cutting 90° corners without slowing down during an era of vacuum tube technology. Also this was for -months-, -all across the nation-. Again, very different.


I suppose I should have worded that a little differently - is there statistical significance in the number of 'quality' sightings for the given period of time?

I think you missed my point - the Houston Lights were a very different class of "UFO" - but, for a time, we saw a flurry of sighting and abduction reports. We also saw much of the same thing through the 50s as space travel and aliens began to be a prominent public concept. People actually made a living touring and telling people about their abduction experience (where they talked about the women on Venus or something kind of silly like that).

Compare it to more obscure events - such as those reported by the military (the UFO shutting down the missile control systems and freaking everyone out), police sightings that didn't get media attention, etc - and compare reports of UFO activity at those times as well to see what I'm talking about.

It gets even more interesting when you consider that over 20 years pass before Roswell becomes a serious topic of UFOs.


I also invite you to explore the differences between the Roswell incident and the Houston Lights incident. Vastly different. Did one crash and was recovered? Was this admitted to by every military man up the chain of command involved with the recovery? Were there 600+ witnesses to the alien nature of the event?


Every military man? You mean that was interviewed, or sought to be interviewed. 600 witnesses is about the size of Roswell - the only first-hand witnesses I'm aware of involve the farmer/rancher and a nurse working at the air base.

en.wikipedia.org...


Was the nation thrown into a panic because of the daily blitz of sightings in Houston? No.


Hollyweird, as disconnected with reality as it may be - is often very in touch with the public's interests and desires. When people are thinking about communist invasions, you produce movies that base their scripts around that concept. When people are thinking about aliens - you write alien movies. Star Trek arose from the space race - and gained new life with the space shuttle in The Next Generation. Buck Rogers, 2001 A Space Odyssey - then we get into First Encounters of the Third Kind, Independence Day, The X-Files, Mars Attacks, etc.

Roswell fell away from media attention following the official statement by the Air Force. It was the 70s before Roswell became a subject again. People had space aliens on the brain in the 50s and 60s. Like how settlers had "engines" on the mind as they encountered that frontier.


Did Trained observers like pilots scientists military men and the entire police force (on one particular day) all report 90° corners at terrific speeds from Houston? No.


That's nothing unique to observed UFO phenomena. To this day and age.


Roswell and it's surrounding blitz is very different from any other 'incident'.


The Houston Lights were but the most prominent in hundreds of other reports of lights moving in a triangular formation. Saucers were UFOs through the 40s to 70s - echelon light formations were the signature UFOs of the 80s through 90s.

That's not to imply some kind of exclusive nature to UFO time periods - "triangles" and light formations had been around quite a while. Saucers/disks are still reported to this day - it's simply that, for some reason or another, the light formations seemed to be happening more often, or just being reported more.


I'll just stand back and let you argue with yourself.


I generally don't post unless I have an observation that has yet to be made, or an opinion that has yet to be expressed.

As I said - I wouldn't be surprised either way. It's rather obvious from the various reports of the time and the lack of transparency that the military was covering something up - likely more than a mere weather balloon.

However - to say "UFOs are flying around in the sky" and "there was a crash of some kind in Roswell that the military recovered quickly" - then draw a line between the two and say "the military recovered a UFO" - is a bit silly. The military was actively engaged in a number of various aerospace development programs at the time - why does a crash in Roswell have to immediately be linked to reports of objects behaving in ways science is still struggling to explain?

I believe some "UFOs" are natural phenomena of limited physical nature (thus, allowing for some of the explained feats). Others are more than likely to be some kind of extra-terrestrial craft. There are reports of similar phenomena going back hundreds to thousands of years.

I see no reason to suddenly connect a crash at Roswell with an ET or super-technological origin.

But that doesn't mean I see it as impossible. Just that it requires an extra leap of faith, and only serves to sensationalize what is more than likely a very terrestrial project. Even members of Congress have been denied access to documents pertaining to the incident - which means it was likely more than Project Mogul - or Project Mogul was more than merely nuclear monitoring equipment.

To think along one train of thought is to be horribly limited. That's why I entertain the idea from several different angles. It seems very... primitive.... to simply restrict my way of thinking to only include that which I want to be true. Events like Roswell are a classic rabbit-hole that one can always make deeper. Is it really deeper? Does it matter? It's simply a source of entertainment, and even 'exercise' to dig deeper and deeper into the rabbit-hole, even though you're making it far larger/deeper than the rabbit had, originally.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 05:53 PM
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Did you guys hear npr's fresh air today. Astonishing stuff Annie Jacobsen uncovered about young kids being genetically/surgically engineered to look like aliens.

Annie Jacobsen
edit on 17-5-2011 by kazanoom because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by budaruskie
Tesla and UFO's are two of my favorite topics, but I have to question the logic here. If the Nazi's had operable discs that flew on Tesla's technology (electromagnetics) then why the hell didn't they use them during WWII, and on a grand scale, as they did most everything else? This to me is pretty convincing proof that they didn't have functional craft. I could be wrong though, wouldn't be the first time. Anywho, thanks for using your noodle.


The nazis had many weapons they werent able to use on a grand scale, starting with the Tiger tank, to the Sturmgewehr, the grandaddy of assault rifles. There are conflicting reports about the flying disc project.

It is possible that no significant results were ever yieleded and the Americas own experiment did not fare much better.

It is possible that results were yielded, but that the technology has been kept secret and is being operated by secret elements off the public eye foreign and abroad.

I would go for number one. As for what crashed at roswell 2 years after the war is annybodys guess. A toy they captured in Germany is far more likely than an alien flying lightyears to crash on earth.



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