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Chemtrail debunkers and their agenda

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posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:35 PM
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reply to post by Maximus187
 


Oh okay I am starting to see why now people say you can't prove it one way or the other okay. maybe the sky should be tested lets do it. Because yeah I still think that there are metals in the sky though




posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by American-philosopher
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Alright I was doing some research and how you make alumina is from bauxite ore. So are you saying that just all around us everywhere is bauxite ore ??


no - I am saying that there is aluminium in all sorts of soils, not just in bauxite.

From wiki:


Feldspars, the most common group of minerals in the Earth's crust, are aluminosilicates.


-en.wikipedia.org...

Feldspars are: KAlSi3O8 – NaAlSi3O8 – CaAl2Si2O8 - notice the Al in each of them (thee are jsut tne endmembers of their compositios - see eth wiki article for more info - en.wikipedia.org...



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by American-philosopher
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


But you say the wind when I am more talking about the atmosphere or at least high up in the sky.


There are winds high in the atmosphere - for example the jet stream.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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It is strange how the discussion is very simplistic. Here is an acknowledgment by the germany of chemtrails. And with the word chemtrails, I mean plane spraying chemicals! To call it different things and that there are different purposes is only to complicate and confuse what is happening. The thing is simple chemtrails exist and is harmful to humans, nature and animals. Why chemtrails intesifieras in recent years knows only those who are behind this phenomenon.

Jet-stream...give me a break...please...

Dailymotion

Millions were in germ war tests



Much of Britain was exposed to bacteria sprayed in secret trials

The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry.

One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 planes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.

While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.

In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.

The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.

Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.

Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.

In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.

However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.

David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.

The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'

Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.

Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'

The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s.

The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW [biological warfare] attack.'

Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.

'The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'

Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: 'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'

antony.barnett@observer.co.uk

guardian.co.uk
edit on 17-5-2011 by stavis because: spelling



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:53 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


okay well Aloysius the gaul 9:50 says I just got molly whopped by a chemtrail debunker. How bout I give you a star how bout that one. since I can;t prove you wrong there. because this is not really my issue I try and study a little bit.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:56 PM
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And one more thing from the research I have done I know what goverments are capable of especially mine. ESPECIALLY MINE!!! so to say that they can;t or wouldn;t do this is grossly underestimating them.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
It is strange how the discussion is very simplistic. Here is an acknowledgment by the germany of chemtrails. And with the word chemtrails, I mean plane spraying chemicals! To call it different things and that there are different purposes is only to complicate and confuse what is happening.


Where? You mean the video where the German word "düppel" was mistranslated as "chemtrails", when it actual means "chaff"?

You know that entire translation is fake, right? Anyone who speaks German can verify that.

contrailscience.com...



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by American-philosopher
 


This is exactly what I want to show how the conversation changes direction to be about things that must be substantiated with facts. Chemtrails are and this is a fact! Anyone who now wants debunks and should lie at the level of facts and evidence that debunkers want to show us to strengthen our cause!? Ironically, this affects all life on earth, even debunkers.

btw I gave you a star



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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reply to post by Uncinus
 


but it is obvious that you claim it is fake, what do you say otherwise? Morgellons is what according to you?

Clouds of Death vs Aerosol Crimes


edit on 18-5-2011 by stavis because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by stavis
 


Your whole article, there, was about spraying done from low flying airplanes....

You see, this has been brought up almost a hundred times, I would guess, here on ATS...same ignorant claim, and reference to that OLD event in the UK.

Again....only way YOU knew about it was from a "chem"-trail site, right???

Figures.....typical, and not even related to what *You* (your *friends*) call "chem"-trails....those things up at 30,000 feet, or so.

Also, those UK tests used lorries (trucks and vans) and ships at sea, too.

READ the damn article!!



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by American-philosopher
 


This is exactly what I want to show how the conversation changes direction to be about things that must be substantiated with facts. Chemtrails are and this is a fact! Anyone who now wants debunks and should lie at the level of facts and evidence that debunkers want to show us to strengthen our cause!? Ironically, this affects all life on earth, even debunkers.

btw I gave you a star


Yet, you have no evidence.

You are confusing fact with opinion. An opinion backed up by absolutely no evidence. The people making these "chemtrail" movies are brilliant insofar as the hype they have generated regarding this hoax.

Your opinion is not a fact, I am sorry.

But the world needs comedians too, so I thank you for the countless laughs the "chemtrail" crowd has given us.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:29 AM
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reply to post by GringoViejo
 


but of course it is not my opinion, the facts, who told you? but that's not what this is about, the conversation is not about me or you as a person. Chemtrails! Whatever is told from the "us" to evidence of chemtrails is called a lie misunderstanding and so do you go to personal attacks so unrelated to the question.
There is nothing you can say that proves that chemtrails do not exist! That's a fact! The question is what drives people to make it a sport that debunks various topics?
Let me say this, I argue, claiming that chemtrails exist, affecting all life on Earth. You say that it is not so ... Who is whose case on this issue?



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:35 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by Uncinus
 


but it is obvious that you claim it is fake, what do you say otherwise? Morgellons is what according to you?

Clouds of Death vs Aerosol Crimes


edit on 18-5-2011 by stavis because: (no reason given)


Would you agree it's fake then? That it's actually talking about chaff?



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by GringoViejo
 


but of course it is not my opinion, the facts, who told you? but that's not what this is about, the conversation is not about me or you as a person. Chemtrails! Whatever is told from the "us" to evidence of chemtrails is called a lie misunderstanding and so do you go to personal attacks so unrelated to the question.
There is nothing you can say that proves that chemtrails do not exist! That's a fact! The question is what drives people to make it a sport that debunks various topics?
Let me say this, I argue, claiming that chemtrails exist, affecting all life on Earth. You say that it is not so ... Who is whose case on this issue?


Debunking is not about proving that something does not exist. You can't do that.

It's about demonstrating that there is no evidence that something exists, by explaining why the proffered evidence is wrong.

That, you can do.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by GringoViejo
 


but of course it is not my opinion, the facts, who told you? but that's not what this is about, the conversation is not about me or you as a person. Chemtrails! Whatever is told from the "us" to evidence of chemtrails is called a lie misunderstanding and so do you go to personal attacks so unrelated to the question.
There is nothing you can say that proves that chemtrails do not exist! That's a fact! The question is what drives people to make it a sport that debunks various topics?
Let me say this, I argue, claiming that chemtrails exist, affecting all life on Earth. You say that it is not so ... Who is whose case on this issue?


Your so called "facts" are not facts. something cannot be a fact if it is not true.

You and your crowd make the charge that "chemtrails" exist.

You and your crowd make the charge that you "'know" this to be true.

Yet when all your evidence is easily disproved with elementary level science, we are perfectly within reason to ask for more evidence. If you have evidence that proves any of your theories, present it or quit professing that you have the truth. The sites motto is Deny Ignorance, our motivation is to deny you and your crowd of their collective ignorance, which carry with it implications that you and they obviously do not understand.

You and your crowd also make the charge, based on zero evidence yet again, that anyone who says anything contrary to what you believe is a paid government shill. Or some other equally incoherent stance.

So, for what would be about the hundredth time, where is the evidence to back up your claim?


edit on 18-5-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by GringoViejo
 



There is nothing you can say that proves that chemtrails do not exist! That's a fact!


But that doesn't prove that htey DO exist either.

To prove they DO exist you have to have evidence that they exist - not just a lack of evidence that they don't exist.

Are you chemmies all taking "argument from ignorance" pills at the same time?

Having a little "logical-fallacy-group-hug" or something?

This is the 3rd or 4h time today one of you has used this false arguument as if it was proof that chemtrails do exist



The question is what drives people to make it a sport that debunks various topics?


I told you already in this thread why I debunk chemtrails - perhaps you havent' actually read hte thread, so here's the link: www.abovetopsecret.com...



Let me say this, I argue, claiming that chemtrails exist, affecting all life on Earth. You say that it is not so ... Who is whose case on this issue?


I don't say "it is not so" - I ask you "What evidence do you have to support that conclusion? What effects are being felt? What is causing it?"

Without knowing hat how can you do anything about "it"?

And then you reply "I have no evidence - you just have to believe me and spend billions screwing up international air travel because I'm paranoid about persistent contrails"

In which case I have no trouble saying that you are full of BS and just trying to seek attention for yourself and your concern for life on earth is a lie.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 02:40 AM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Pathetic reasoning and quite tiring. What facts do you have to chemtrails do not exist? What is the purpose of spraying chemicals from airplanes around the clock by different subjects you do not want to acknowledge, discuss with the public or even tell you why you spray? debunking is pretty convenient way to spid anomaly in the discussions and bring mistrust. Everyone has a will to believe and base their own decisions on what you set yourself. Of course, a debate open to questions and discussion on various claims, etc, otherwise it would come foreward. This whole subject has been driven away from the merits of WHAT sprayed and WHY? no one can deny that chemtrails are sprayed, but the word chemtrail is perhaps what arouses mistrust? But that is exactly what it is. A plane spraying chemicals = chemtrails.
How can you show me a single proof that chemtrails are just fabrications? and what would be the purpose of this fictitious claim?


edit on 18-5-2011 by stavis because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by stavis
 


It isn't hard to *debunk* bunk.

When the "chem" believers have evidence, then there will be attention paid.

So far, there is nothing, at all....but nonsense and "faith" (apparently) in "something".....and, not any of the "chem" believers, the "faithful" can even settle in on ONE aspect to "believe" in!!

This is typical of failed "conspiracy theories", each time. Oh, and BTW.....this myth should have died back in 2000 (or sooner), shortly after it was hatched as a scheme. But, whether knowingly or not, many of them have spread the same ignorance, time and again, now for nearly two decades. NO wonder they *think* (well, they don't really think, logically....they "believe") that "something" is going on.....because of the numbers of equally deluded folks who are going along.

Follow the money, and the sources...all the way back to the beginning. Two names, to start you out:

Will Thomas ---- Cliff Carnicorn.


Charlatans, both. MANY of the "chem"-pushers are shills for them (and others), little doubt. Others, merely patsies. Unwitting dupes.


Back in 2000, on "Chemtrail Central" blog, a post laid it out perfectly:

www.chemtrailcentral.com...



1. The existence of a huge and sinister plot is completely lacking in evidence.

2. The logistics of a massive spraying program would be an order of magnitude higher than the Manhattan Project, the Apollo Moon Landing, or the Vietnam War and simply could not be hidden from any oversight.

3. There is no evidence whatsoever of aircraft modified to perform some of the spraying methodologies that are proposed.

4. Anecdotal "evidence" of any illnesses caused by contrails is not backed up by any reliable data (and is actually contradicted by others).

5. There has never been any evidence of anyone collecting some of this "chemtrail" material in situ, having it tested by any reputable laboratory, and presented to anyone.

6. Every characteristic of chemtrails can be just as logically and rationally explained by normal contrails under normal (but differentiating) atmospheric conditions.



ALSO...it is painfully obvious that this thread was spawned as result of another, in a "tit-for-tat" attempt.

Quite sad, really.......





edit on Mon 16 May 2011 by weedwhacker because: (no reason given)


I think that you under-estimate the power, technology and recourses combined involved governments all over the world have.

I agree that it is surprisingly amazing how nobody can come up with evidence which will convince everybody, nodoubt. The only reason must be that there are protocals and procedures in place that make the project water-tight from leaking out.

It is my belief that it is more important to ask why than the how. The why is the reason why bllions of dollars are spent to make it happen and why people involved are convinced it is better to keep their lips shut about it. Therefore I belief the chemtrail are sprayed for protecting the people instead of killing them. The threat must be significant if all these governments decided to join the project. Disclosure would or can cause civil unrest.....

The thing that convinced me of contrails is the checkerboard I once saw above my city. There has never been much commercial flying but from one moment on youcan sometimes see the planes flying side by side and causing the sky to be layered with a fine mist. I am 47 years old and I (and a lot of other people) can not remember planes doing this.
edit on 18-5-2011 by zatara because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 03:15 AM
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reply to post by stavis
 



How can you show me a single proof that chemtrails are just fabrications? and what would be the purpose of this fictitious claim?


This is an example of why you are doomed to live a life of ignorance.

Believe what you want to believe. The more you try to twist your argument, the more you expose your own ignorance.

We have been steadfast throughout in our ability to explain every piece of supposed "evidence of chemtrails" for what it really is. Which has been a chore, due to the sheer amount of straws being grasped at. Yet you demand further evidence from us that what you dogmatically believe in is false.

Welcome to your new faith. Reason need not apply.

Art Bell can accept your tithes.



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


Pathetic reasoning


Pointing out the logical fallacies of the chemtrail argument is actually logical reasoning.

Yes I know logic isn't a long suite for chemmies, but that's your problem, not mine




and quite tiring.


Sorry - am I keeping you up past your beddie byes time??!!



What facts do you have to chemtrails do not exist?



Contrails exist - all the stuff that is described as chemtrails fits the known characteristics of contrails.

What facts do you have to prove that chemtrails do exist??

ZERO

So already I'm 2-0 up



What is the purpose of spraying chemicals from airplanes around the clock by different subjects you do not want to acknowledge, discuss with the public or even tell you why you spray?


Why ask me?

I know it isn't happening - if you want to know why it's happening you're going to have to invent that story too.


debunking is pretty convenient way to spid anomaly in the discussions and bring mistrust.


Inventing a hoax story that the world is being poisoned when it isn' looks like it's doing a better job of that than pointing out known scientific fact.


This whole subject has been driven away from the merits of WHAT sprayed and WHY?


Quite rightly too - since both of those require that something is being sprayed in the1st place, and you can't even establish that properly.



no one can deny that chemtrails are sprayed,


?? That's the weirdest statement out of a bunch of weird statements!

Clearly lots of people deny that chemtrails are being sprayed.

I can - chemtrails are not being sprayed. It must suck to be wrong as often as you!!


but the word chemtrail is perhaps what arouses mistrust? But that is exactly what it is. A plane spraying chemicals = chemtrails.
How can you show me a single proof that chemtrails are just fabrications?


Why should I have to? You can't show me that they do exist, and your repeated argument from ignorance meme shows how bankrupt your thinking is on this.


and what would be the purpose of this fictitious claim?


I have no idea - but I have no need to know why some bozo perpetrates a fraud to know it's a fraud.


edit on 18-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



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