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Chemtrail debunkers and their agenda

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posted on May, 16 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by Uncinus


Prove that we need to prove it.

No you prove that I need to prove that you need to prove it.




posted on May, 16 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by stavis
 


your proof is some group whining about chemtrails? really? is that the best you can do?
A history channel program including chemtrails. What about the shows about Bigfoot, Nessie, Mothera, and the rest of the monsters? Are they to be included as evidence as well?

You are embarrassing the movement. please either find better proof, or let it go.



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by binkbonk

Originally posted by Uncinus


Prove that we need to prove it.

No you prove that I need to prove that you need to prove it.


this argument will go nowhere. Logic is a wonderful thing. Misused, it can be very, very dangerous.
Stop, think, listen, learn. in that order.



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by stavis
 


I don't have an agenda, I just have yet to see any credible evidence of some sinister plot using smoke in the atmosphere, or that these are anything more that persistent contrails. Unless they were using them in 1984 for the movie Red Dawn (which still rocks to this day).





posted on May, 16 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


you see how pathetic your argument is?



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by SaveTheWolves
reply to post by Boston1023
 


There is evidence but you choose to ignore it.


I don't ignore anything - if there is evidence then I don't see it so I ASK for it.

How could that possibly be wrong?

If you truly think that requests for evidence "cannot possibly be answered" (as someone posted) then why are you telling me that there is evidence in the first place??!!




The only thing you people say is that there are contrails. We know there are contrails. But there are also chemtrails.


So there MUST be some REASON why you think there are chemtrails - tell us what it is please!!

Otherwise you are part of a coverup!

But then if what you tell us makes no sense from a scientific/rational/logical framework, why do you continue to claim it as a FACT? Why not claim it as a belief instead?

FACTS can be supported by logical, verifiable, objective EVIDENCE.

Beliefs? well beliefs require none of htat.

So ther's the challenge - either front up with evidence to prove the FACT - or admit that chemtrails are a matter of BELIEF - FAITH!

Which is it?
edit on 16-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:03 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:04 PM
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You guys do know chemtrail theory has been around for years.. After all those years theres still not one bit of proof, not even good photos..



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:05 PM
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Kinda funny to me really, how someone can say something and you get a million people who will blindly agree, fight for fake facts even when proven wrong, and call others liers when they are the ones bringing alternate theorys to the table with no proof.



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by stavis
 



Source: CyprusMail. THE GREENS yesterday called for government funding to investigate suspected contamination caused by alleged chemtrails in Cypriot skies. The party have also launched on their website an online petition calling for a proper investigation into the chemtrail phenomenon (www.greenpartycy.com/el/our-news/2009-10-29-12-19-08/campaign-against-ch…).
“We demand the government keep its promise and examine the possible consequences to the health of residents and the environment from chemtrails created by aircraft taking off from the British Bases in combination with the experimental operation of the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Programme (HAARP) within the Akrotiri British Bases and in Cyprus airspace in general,” party head Ioanna Panayiotou said.
The chemtrail theory holds that some trails left by aircraft are actually chemical or biological agents deliberately sprayed at high altitudes for a purpose undisclosed to the general public in clandestine programmes directed by government officials. The existence of chemtrails has been repeatedly denied by government agencies and scientists around the world, who say the trails are normal contrails, or condensation trails made by the exhaust of aircraft engines.
The Greens said the government made a commitment to the House Environment Committee in March 2009 to conduct an in-depth study of these accusations. A bi-ministerial technical committee was subsequently formed for this purpose.
The technical committee, the Greens added, “dissolved mysteriously” after only a few sessions.
“We demand that the government adopts our proposal to finance an independent study that will take samples and chemically analyse the substances included in these chemical trails,” said Panayiotou.
Campaign Against Chemtrails’ Yiannos Alexandrou said observations of high-altitude aircraft in Cypriot skies leaving the characteristic trails were on the rise.
Research director at Greece’s National Centre of Scientific Research, chemist Nicolaos Katsaros said soil samples taken in Greece showed traces of aluminium and barium – substances that are neurotoxic to humans and poison the food chain.
“They are the new Weapons of Mass Destruction,” he said.
Katsaros ascribes to the theory – one of a multitude – that chemtrails are being used for covert climate control. According to this theory, chemtrails contain metal particles which reflect sunlight away from earth to combat global warming.
In October last year, Cyprus was represented at the Nagoya conference in Japan, where the 193-member UN Convention on Biological Diversity passed a resolution calling for a moratorium on geoengineering projects and experiments. The resolution called for a halt to any private or public experimentation intended to manipulate the planetary thermostat

aircrap.org...



Still just a bunch of supposition.

How does Aluminum and Barium in soil prove planes are spraying anything other than their own exhaust?


In the late 1950s and 1960s, this work was picked up and expanded by E. J. Kamprath who worked on the lime requirements to overcome toxic aluminum levels and the fertility needs and by Fred Cox, working on the micronutrient needs and deficiencies. As a result of this combined breeding, soil fertility, and soil management program, soybean production in North Carolina has grown to the point where it was in fourth place among North Carolina crops in cash receipts in 1980 with production exceeded only by Illinois, Iowa and Missouri (Miller 1983).
www.soil.ncsu.edu...

Aluminum has been in our soil literally forever.
www.alunet.net...

So has Barium.


Barium is surprisingly abundant in the Earth's crust, being the 14th most abundant element. High amounts of barium may only be found in soils and in food, such as nuts, seaweed, fish and certain plants.
Because of the extensive use of barium in the industries human activities add greatly to the release of barium in the environment. As a result barium concentrations in air, water and soil may be higher than naturally occurring concentrations on many locations.


If this "chemist" (irony is slaying me) was worth his salt, he would realize he wouldn't find Barium if his "chemtrail" hypothesis were true, he would find Barium Oxide (BaO). He claims to have found Barium.


Barium is a silvery-white metal that can be found in the environment, where it exists naturally. It occurs combined with other chemicals, such as sulfur, carbon or oxygen. Ii is very light and its density is half that of iron. Barium oxidizes in air, reacts vigoroulsy with water to form the hydroxide, liberating hydrogen. Barium reacts with almost all the non-metals, forming often poisouning compounds.

www.lenntech.com...


Why doesn't the report on the "aircrap" site that you got this from not publish the levels this "chemist" found in the soil?

Is this why?


chemist Nicolaos Katsaros said soil samples taken in Greece showed traces of aluminium and barium



traces of aluminium and barium



edit on 16-5-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-5-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-5-2011 by GringoViejo because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:09 PM
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I think i have a theory that supports the way "Chemtrailers" can support their
own claims, even with out any evidence.
It's very simple really.

It's a tribal response to a fabricated belief.
( I think it's true so if I'm proved wrong,then
I will look gullible and stupid).
So therefore I can't admit that I am wrong.

It's much the same as rally round the flag.(except the flag is real)
same principal though.

the person before had it right,put up real evidence or start a new
religion.
They could call it "The Chemtrail Brethren".
You could call your leader "Brother Magaton" lols

I need to stop. I'm loling too much.
edit on 16-5-2011 by rigel4 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:30 PM
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Oh thats it I was wrong

Aluminum and Barium in soil comes from the fertilization of flowers. I must admit I had no idea that alminium is one of the few toxic and hazardous substances that NEVER breaks down. There is obviously a product of? hmm ... let me think ... no I can not find any reason other than flowers. Great that I finally received a reply to this perpetual rhetoric that is completely absurd and verging on pathetic.

Barium and alminium are waste products of flower fertilization, that it then be found immediately after chemtrail spraying is not related. plan of course flower spray manure to promote the world's flora.
grow up



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:31 PM
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Originally posted by stavis
reply to post by SaveTheWolves
 


thats my point
when they are going on with their debunking agenda all you have to do is to ignore them when you feel things get out of hand. I will not have nothing moore to with these agents.


My sentiments exactly.

Never argue with a fool. They will attempt to bring you down to their level and once you are there, they will beat you with experience.



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:36 PM
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reply to post by stavis
 


NO.....sorry, yet again.

Look it up, it's been posted countless times, already......why do people have to do REAL research for you?

The NORMAL content of aluminum, by percentage, in soil is about 7%. NOT "added" form fertilizer!!!



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by stavis
Aluminum and Barium in soil comes from the fertilization of flowers. I must admit I had no idea that alminium is one of the few toxic and hazardous substances that NEVER breaks down.


Oxygen doesn't break down, neither does Iron. Better watch out for them too.



There is obviously a product of? hmm ... let me think ... no I can not find any reason other than flowers.


You should look at stellar fusion more closely then



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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Is that all you lot have...........The unbelievers must be agents of "them".

I'm loving this, you guys are embarrassing yourselves and providing
great ammunition for the real "them".

Your making all conspiracy theorists look bad.
Some of the topics on these forums are worth
pursuing and "chemtrailers" are hampering efforts for the more
serious topics.

Give it up and start a chemtrail belief forum.

edit on 16-5-2011 by rigel4 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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My personal agenda as a "debunker" is quite simple.

I am replying to slanderous attacks on my character.

I was trained as an aircraft mechanic in the 1970's. I have worked for a couple of airliens and maintenance organisations, and for teh national regulator here (the equivalent of the FAA).

So the existance of some vast chemtrail conspiracy involving civilian airliners would mean that I am part of it, and am knowingly doing whatever it is that the conspiracy thinks is being done.

And that is just bullshirt.

so I am using ATS, and anywhere else I think useful, to defend myself against the baseless and slanderous attacks of chemtrails believers.


edit on 16-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: 'cos my typing sucks



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


What type of plane did you work with exactly? tell me please, you be supriced what I do for a living. OR did before I got sick as hell due to some strange stuff. now, it is not possible that chemtrail is occuring without your knowing about it? are you the cheif that has make the ok before ANY chemtrail is being sprayed? and so on... grov up and try to see the truth just once. you are a victim to belive it or not.



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by SaveTheWolves
reply to post by stavis
 


It really is better to ignore them like you say because they are not worth our time. They believe what they want to believe. The crap could be falling in their faces and they would sit there like a turkey in the rain with their noses turned up inhaling it.

Actaully it would be falling in their faces. Your statement there is actual proof against chemtrails. Aluminum doesn't just evaporate. It will fall to the ground and accumulate. There would be inches of it all over by now if this was happening. I don't see inches of alumium around anywhere do you? Explain in great detail were all this alumium and barium is going?

I am a welder and a amatuer photographer. I have no agenda. As much time as I spend in nature taking pictures of all things including planes I have come across zero evidence of chemtrails. Someone says you just have to look up, well I do. I take pictures of everything interesting including planes with contrails. Every picture I have taken clearly shows the contrail coming from the engines. As I am walking thorugh the wilderness there is no sign of years of accumulated aluminum anywhere.

Some idiots say it is mixed in with the fuel. Three reasons this isn't so. 1) it would burn up on ignition. 2) It would cause damage to fuel systems and accumulate in the tanks causing serious issues. 3) The amount it would take to achieve what they are said to be doing would make the fuel unstable.

What I find funny about the chemtrail people is their complete lack of understanding how to collect evidence. If they have a point to prove then do it. It would not be that hard if chemtrails really existed.
edit on 16-5-2011 by jaydeePNW because: spelling



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 04:57 PM
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reply to post by stavis
 


I worked on B737-200's, BAE-146's, B727's and various turbo props.

I also know for an absolute fact that at least some of those planes made persistent contrails in the 1960's and early 70's - because there were only a handful of them in this country (12 - yep - 12 civilian jets flying domestic routes), I used to watch them do it, and then I worked on every single one of them as a mechanic in the 70's and 80's when they were STILL making persistent contrails.

As a mechanic I worked with all sorts of dodgy chemical crap - kerosene of course, Methy-ethyl ketone (MEK), touluene, assorted sealants, glues, greases, oils (synthetics & naturals), anti-corrosion compounds (water displacers, barrier coatings), polishes, paints, thinners and god knows what else.

I had those in close proximity - often had my hands in them - used them to clean myself even.

So I find the idea that some miniscule amount of something sprayed at 30,000 feet might affect the whole population quite laughable.

If you are suffering something that you ascribe to "chemtrails" then I would ask you how it is you know they ar the cause, and not, say, pollution from motor vehicles - after all Barium is a fuel additive to diesel, which is not a common aircraft fuel!!



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