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WANTED 1 intelligent educated Christian to answer some questions on faith

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posted on May, 17 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


well i could don my conspiratorial cap and state that people of faith are often met with the proverbial glass ceiling while out and about the university circuit, book circuit, job circuit, and etc. for example, if you're completely convinced that there is sufficient evidence to prove "intelligent design", you are automatically assumed to be religious. many who hold that position are not religious and are scientists and geneticists who see the whole thing as a case of "too many monkeys would need to be randomly typing on too many fictitious keyboards for entirely too long, to come up with a single strand of functional RNA much less DNA, and to add the complexity necessary for an auto programming sentient lifeform like humans (who start out with only very rudimentary inherent behaviors, like suckling), is akin to asking you to believe that your entire house, complete with furnishings and appliances, built itself).




posted on May, 17 2011 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 



Well.....

As much as it pains me to do this I have to admit you were right I was wrong


WOW...

Much respect sent your way. Not that you said I was right, but the fact you admitted you were wrong on Nicea/books of the Bible. That's rare in forums and ATS, and shows you're a man with integrity. I commend you for that.

And I apologize for being gruff, I've just grown tired and callous over the years of seeing the Nicea myths in half the threads I participate in. With that said, what you just did is rare and refreshing, hats off to you.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 12:47 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


LOL

cheers dude and thanks for giving me a post it didnt hurt me to star



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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addendum to my above post:

If non religious people who hold a view which even remotely hints at the possibility the current mainstream view is wrong, are treated as anathema, stupid, illogical, unintelligent, ridiculous, unscientific, and uneducated, no matter their education or qualifications otherwise, you can only imagine how biased it has become towards religious people (who's only big difference in this example is, that they participate in a social event known as religion).



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by kallisti36
Oh! You're talking about "Surprised by Christ". That's Fr. Bernstein, he's an Antiochian Orthodox Priest in the same diocese as me; my Priest is friends with him and I might get to meet him one day. He was a great guy to read because I was considering Messianic Judaism for a long time before I found Orthodoxy.

It's also interesting that you are Anglican, because for a long time the Anglicans were in dialogue with the Orthodox Church discussing unification. The dialogue broke down, because they weren't willing to compromise on certain things. Regardless, since Vatican II, the Anglicans are now actually closer to Orthodoxy than the Roman Catholics. C.S. Lewis, an Anglican, was also very close to Orthodox theology especially with his views of atonement which leaned more toward ransom soteriology and Christus Victor (patristic) as opposed to Protestant Penal Substitution atonement (novel and totally absent from Christian thought for a millennia). Here is an interesting observation in Orthodoxwiki concerning C. S. Lewis:


C.S. Lewis is much loved by many Orthodox Christians who often raise the question, "Was C.S. Lewis an anonymous Orthodox?" Lewis's Atonement Theology and Soteriology, as well as his understandings of heaven and hell, are very similar to that of the Orthodox and stand opposed to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant understandings of these matters. Of course, Lewis remained an Anglican throughout his life; however, it is significant to note that for more than a century, and all through Lewis' life, the Anglican and Orthodox churches were studying union. The Orthodox gave up the quest for union in the late 1960s when it became apparent that liberalism, not orthodox theology, would prevail in the Church of England. It is very fair to describe Lewis as an "Anonymous Orthodox"—his official allegiance lay with the Church of England, but his sympathies lay with the Orthodox. The most thoughtful study of Lewis' relationship to Orthodoxy was written by Bishop Kallistos Ware of Diokleia, who also teaches at Oxford. In an article published in Sobornost (an Anglican-Orthodox Ecumenical magazine) entitled "C.S. Lewis: an 'Anonymous Orthodox'?" he explores this fascinating question. He humbly relates that Lewis has a tendency to "idealize us Orthodox," and affirms that "even though C.S. Lewis' personal contacts with the Orthodox Church were not extensive at the same time his thinking is often profoundly in harmony with the Orthodox standpoint." Although he can't be looked upon as an Orthodox writer, his consistent sympathy for Orthodoxy has to be considered. As one of his biographers recalls (in "C.S. Lewis and His Times," by George Sayer), after a holiday spent in Greece together with Lewis and his wife, Lewis told him that of all the liturgies he'd ever attended, he preferred the Greek Orthodox liturgy to anything that he had seen in the West, Protestant or Roman Catholic. Then he went on to say that of all the priests and monks that he had ever had the opportunity to meet, the Orthodox priests that he ran across in his sojourn in Greece were the holiest, most spiritual men he had ever met. C.S. Lewis referred to a certain look they had, a sense. Lewis himself, in one of his letters, speaks of having been at an Orthodox liturgy and he said he loved it. He said "some stood, some sat, some knelt and one old man crawled around the floor like a caterpillar." He "absolutely loved it." We only know for sure that C.S. Lewis loved the Orthodox Church, though he never joined it and remained in the Anglican Church.

Orthodox bias and slant aside, here is a quote straight from the horse's mouth:


Letters to Malcolm * "What pleased me most about a Greek Orthodox Mass I once attended was that there seemed to be no prescribed behavior for the congregation. Some stood, some knelt, some sat, some walked; one crawled about the floor like a caterpillar. And the beauty of it was that nobody took the slightest notice of what anyone else was doing. I wish we Anglicans would follow their example. One meets people who are perturbed because someone in the next pew does, or does not, cross himself. They oughn’t even to have seen, let alone censured. “Who art thou that judgest Another’s Servant?” – p. 10

edit on 17-5-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-5-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)

Thank you for that, I absolutely love the writings of CS Lewis... He was awesome...
Yes, 'Surprised by Christ', it's a brilliant book, one of those serendipitous discoveries, right there in my local library. I love reading about peoples' experience and growth.
Vicky



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


I usually surf those topics that catch my interest, yours ..I felt like I couldnt resist puting in my two cents..so I felt as if I was being baited..aka the "trolling" comment. Its been an intersting thread..as always the ATS community came through with some interesting and sometimes humerous responses. An observation..Christ many times healed peopled so that they didnt have a "crutch" to impede their course through life and he often spoke of being blind as did the Apostles. I dont believe he ever intended anyone to continue in "blind faith" but expected each person to find their own truth through him and if his teachings were correct then at some point in time we would all arrive with at same conclusion..aka enlightenment..and then share with others..seems as if it was a pretty simple plan..what could go wrong..lol...



posted on Jun, 2 2011 @ 01:19 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


Hey Dude,

I really appreciate you getting back to me


First off Ill explain my reason for the thread and title.

Im not Christian but I am culturally Christian, I like the core message but to me its obvious there is more to the story and it seems to have been deliberately edited/withheld. This bothers me and it bothers me that Christians dont see it. I have spoken to priests from several denominations and always found their factual knowledge to be lacking. I knew this thread would attract a loon or 2 and was looking forward to it (boy did that backfire:duh
but was also hopeful someone who wouldnt take the bait and answer intelligently in a calm, rational, knowledgable manner.
You seem to fit the bill

Im not Religious but I do believe in God. I would say Im more what would be called spiritual in my outlook.
I believe in reincarnation, a universal conciousness, to some degree Karma as it just seems to make sense to me over the long run.

Ive always been fascinated by religion and have read extensively on different religions as well as different holy books. While I think they are all great and should be read by everyone and at the core they all basically have the same message the one that is easiest for me to associate with is Christianity.
I have really only come to realise this while living in a non Christian country where the values are slightly out of whack with what I personally think is correct (just my personal opinion not a judgement).
But heres my problem, I believe Jesus was a holy man, a wise man, even divinely inspired but I do not believe he was God incarnate.
I think much most of Jesus message has been perverted by people who used it for control so much so that Im personally uncertain as to the validity of what info we have (namely the bible)
Apart from that I hate the thought of associating myself with what Ill call an organisation that has been responsible for more atrocities throughout history than almost anyone/thing else.

So I guess Im saying is there any way of my beliefs being compatable with Christianity or is the belief that Jesus is god a non debateable must? and is reincarnation included somewhere in Christianity?

Once again I really appreciate you willing to have the convo



posted on Jun, 2 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by kallisti36
 

always found their factual knowledge to be lacking...associating myself with what Ill call an organisation that has been responsible for more atrocities throughout history than almost anyone/thing else.





Michael White, writing for the Twentieth Century Atlas, has compiled an intriguing list of body counts, attributable to the worst known acts of war, and other human atrocities, dating back to the fall of Rome. I will venture to briefly list them here by count and century:

55 million, Second World War (20C); 40 million, under Mao Zedong (20C); 40 million, Mongol Conquests(13C); 36 million, An Lushan Revolt(8C); 25 million, Fall of the Ming Dynasty(17C); 20 million, Taiping Rebellion(19C); 20 million, toll of American Indians, (15C-19C), 20 million, under Joseph Stalin(20C); 19 million, Mideast Slave Trade(7C-19C); 18 million, Atlantic Slave Trade(15C-); 17 million, Islamic Conquest of India(14C-15C); 17 million, British India(19C); 15 million, First World War(20C); 9 million, Russian Civil War(20C); 9 million, Hindu Thuggee cult killings(13C-19C); 8 million, Fall of Rome(3C-5C); 8 million, Congo Free State(19C – 20C); 7 million, Thirty Years War(17C); 5 million, Russia's Time of Troubles(16C-17C), 4 million, Napoleonic Wars(19C); 3 million, Chinese Civil War(20C); 3 million, French Wars of Religion(16C).

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

Now, what about abortion? At the low end of the Guttmacher scale, even if we ignore all abortions done prior to 1980 when accurate numbers are a little more difficult to ascertain, abortion accounts for more than twice the number of deaths by war! In just the last 25 years, the ghastly toll for abortion has totaled over 900 million dead babies. Taking the more probable mean average, the toll rises to well over 1 billion babies; or nearly three times the amount of deaths due to war.
www.covenantnews.com...

This is an incomplete listing of some very bad things that happened before the 20th Century. I've scoured the history books and collected most of the major atrocities that anyone has bothered to enumerate.However, just because an event is missing from these pages doesn't mean that it wasn't very bloody..Maybe the 20th Century really was more barbaric than previous centuries (as some people say), but you'll need more complete statistics to prove it. [n.1]
necrometrics.com...

Body Count of the Roman Empire
•(Extremely Preliminary and Debatable) TOTAL:
◦All Punic Wars: 1.0M
◦Gladiators: 1.0M
◦Slave Wars (Servile Wars): 1.0M
◦Cimbri-Teutoni War: 0.3M
◦Social War: 0.3M
◦Mithridatic Wars: ca. 0.5M
◦Gallic War: 1.0M
◦Juleo-Claudian Paranoia: 0.028M
◦Jewish Wars: 0.4M
◦Boudica's Revolt: 0.15M
◦Decline and Fall: 7.0M
◦TOTAL: over 13.0M
necrometrics.com...

Total War Dead Throughout History
I haven't the foggiest, but here's an interesting essay on the subject: The Great "War Figures" Hoax: an investigation in polemomythology rint.rechten.rug.nl...




And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.'

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

biblegateway.com



posted on Jun, 2 2011 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
Im not Religious but I do believe in God. I would say Im more what would be called spiritual in my outlook.
I believe in reincarnation, a universal conciousness, to some degree Karma as it just seems to make sense to me over the long run.

There is a possibility of universal consciousness in the Holy Spirit, but it's lost by and large to most people. The most interesting thing I've found among converts to Christianity and prodigals such as myself is that they almost all describe what brought them to Christ is that they "woke up" and everything fell into perspective. Reincarnation is an idea that was tossed around by the Gnostics and Platonic Christians, but it doesn't match up with the Bible which says "after death is the judgment" (that being said, there is one general resurrection of the dead and one judgment and a state of repose or foretaste in between, so Protestants are wrong about immediate heaven or hell, JW's and SDA are wrong about "soul sleep", and Purgatory is an uninformed theological opinion that was discovered to be a convenient way to scare people and make money). Karma is stupid and wrong and Yeshuah spent much of his ministry pointing out how terrible the idea is. What's wrong with it is that it encourages the thought that if something bad happens to someone they deserve it. Yeshuah says: Matthew 5:43 "You have heard it said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who spitefully use you and persecute you that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for he makes His sun shine on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust " Yeshuah repeats the age old question "why do bad things happen to good people?" and makes it a statement "# happens". The concept of Karma attacks mercy and is why the "untouchables" in India were so reviled, they thought that they were in such a state for living wickedly in a past life. The point is to not judge people who are always in the rain and not to curse the Lord of all sunny days during winter. Yeshuah even directly rebukes the notion of Karma and reincarnation: John 9:1 "Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. And His disciples asked him saying "Rabbi, who sinned this man or his parents that he was born blind?" Jesus answered "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world" Here he shows that the man's misfortune has been allowed so that the first thing he would see would be Christ and he would be saved through the miracle (interesting note: Yeshuah created sight for the man born blind using the dust of the Earth from which YHVH created man). The coming night is death and the world to come. We only have one life to live in which we can grow in love with our Father or be caught unawares by the night. Further illustrating this is Hebrews 10


Hold Fast Your Confession 19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. The Just Live by Faith 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[a] says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”[c] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God




Ive always been fascinated by religion and have read extensively on different religions as well as different holy books. While I think they are all great and should be read by everyone and at the core they all basically have the same message the one that is easiest for me to associate with is Christianity.

It's kind of odd how, what really seems to deflate all other religions is the absence of Christ. I'm not being ethnocentric, it's something I discovered when I was checking out other religions. Buddha had very similar ideas, but he did nothing for us but think; he expects nothing of us and I was always convinced that he wouldn't even care if I followed the eightfold path. On the other hand is Islam expects a lot of you, which can be rewarding in it's own way (to please your Heavenly Father), but is severely lacking in love and mercy. As much as people claim how beautiful the Qu'ran is, all of the best passages seem to rip off proverbs and psalms and you won't find anything near as profound and beautiful as the Sermon on the Mount.


I have really only come to realise this while living in a non Christian country where the values are slightly out of whack with what I personally think is correct (just my personal opinion not a judgement).

What country is that? Is it a different religion that effects the values or a lack thereof.


But heres my problem, I believe Jesus was a holy man, a wise man, even divinely inspired but I do not believe he was God incarnate.

I'll get back to this since you ask it again later and it's really the most important point to address.


I think much most of Jesus message has been perverted by people who used it for control so much so that Im personally uncertain as to the validity of what info we have (namely the bible) Apart from that I hate the thought of associating myself with what Ill call an organisation that has been responsible for more atrocities throughout history than almost anyone/thing else.


This mindset comes from the credibility gap left by the Roman Catholic Church, which as I have previously reminded you is what became of one of five Patriarchates of the Orthodox Catholic Church. The problem came when there were no Caesars in Rome and the Bishop of Rome took that seat of power to fill the power vacuum. Power corrupts, especially centralized power, all of the evil of Rome can be traced to the time when power became imperial and centralized after Latin Church fell out of communion. The Eastern Church never had this problem, because they always had an emperor to handle (or mismanage) the state. Christian Byzantine Emperors did terrible things in the name of Christian zeal and because Emperors were not disobeyed back then it was allowed. As hard as it is to imagine a time when despots ruled on a whim, you must remember that our modern concept of governments such as the Democratic Republic didn't really go into practice until the 1600's. That is not to say, that Christians did not stand firm when Caesar demanded that which did not belong to him:


The Church has upheld its position on war and has never deserted its stance. Emperor Nicephoros Phocas of Byzantium (963-969) requested the Church to recognize the people dying at war to be classified as martyrs. The response was "How could they be regarded as martyrs or equal to the martyrs those who kill others or die themselves at war, when the divine canons impose a penalty on them, preventing them from coming to Divine Communion for three years."


Now as for the Bible being edited, it has happened, but you can catch it when it does. For instance all four Gospels, the epistles, and Revelations date to a time when they could have been written by the apostles (unlike Gnostic texts and psuedepigrapha), are quoted and attested to by early pre-Imperial Church Fathers, and the manuscripts and fragments are in agreement. Now let me tell you about the comma Johanneum. This is a clause in 1John 5:7 unique to the Textus Receptus used by the KJV and derivatives:


5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

The part in bold fits like a piece that doesn't belong in the puzzle that was sort of jammed in there. This hiccup is the Comma. It is a pious forgery unnecessarily used to prop up the trinity. It is not quoted by a single Church Father, not even the champions of Trinitarianism who seemed perfectly able to defend the doctrine without a ham-fisted "proof text". Aside from obvious things such as this, the Gospels flow with the concept of redemption from our fallen nature and the foreshadowing of Christ in the OT including foreshadowings of his divine nature (Immanuel meaning "God with us"). You can see how well it all flows once you have what the greeks call "skopos" or "the big picture", additions like the Comma on the other hand look grafted on.



So I guess Im saying is there any way of my beliefs being compatable with Christianity or is the belief that Jesus is god a non debateable must? and is reincarnation included somewhere in Christianity?

Once again I really appreciate you willing to have the convo

I'm going to let C.S. Lewis and the Bible answer this:


I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. – Mere Christianity, pages 40-41.




1 Corinthians 15:12-20
The Risen Christ, Our Hope 12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.


Yeshuah claimed to be the Christ, he claimed he could forgive sins, he made himself equal to YHVH, he took the divine title "I AM". If he is not the Logos and Christ then he is a madman or a liar. Read his words. Perceive with a loving heart and not the callous heart of cynical worldly "experience". Do you not feel the truth seep from the oh so fragile pages making them something else? Are his expectations, his mercy, his judgments mad? Or do they make more sense than anything else, even the hard sayings which you have been socialized to reject in our world comfortable in itself? Read John 14-17.

More importantly than this is that Yeshuah MUST be the Messiah and he MUST be the Logos. Only the author of life could conquer death. "The wages of sin are death", death came about as a result of sin; "all [mankind] have fallen short of the glory of God". Only the Logos, the word incarnate could save us from the bonds of sin, death, and the devil


1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. 5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. 6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

If this is not true then "dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return" and accusation remains on your head. There is no truth, no way, and no life. You believe in God, so you recognize the metaphysical claim of nihilism that "there is no way, no truth, [no life] and no thing in of itself" is a fallacy (an empirical statement itself) and a philosophy of death and it's cause: sin; and it's master: satan.

Only our Lord Yeshuah Messiah can save us. There is a reason why I call him Yeshua and not Jesus. The secret is in the Hebrew. YAH-SHUAH means "God saves".
edit on 2-6-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-6-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2011 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 



There is a reason why I call him Yeshua and not Jesus. The secret is in the Hebrew. YAH-SHUAH means "God saves".


just a fact and no secret - the reason I call Him Jesus, is that is what He said His name is, just as the spelling sounds, before having read anything in the Gideon New Testament that I had just picked up and begun to open after catching my eye at an exact moment that literally saved me from perishing


And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? -Acts2

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. -Rev19 (see Revelation5)

And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the son of David? For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? -Mark12
biblos.com...


edit on 1-7-2011 by Rustami because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2011 @ 12:34 AM
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reply to post by Rustami
 


. . .just as the spelling sounds. . .
Right.
The writers of the New Testament wrote it that way and if people don't like it, they can convert to Judaism or invent a new religion, because the New Testament is the Christian Bible.



posted on Jul, 1 2011 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Rustami
 


. . .just as the spelling sounds. . .
Right.
The writers of the New Testament wrote it that way and if people don't like it, they can convert to Judaism or invent a new religion, because the New Testament is the Christian Bible.


no doubt and thanks for believing my fellow testimony of how I first came to believe, I find it absolutely amazing on all kinds of levels but specifically eternity and that invisible audible voice



posted on Jul, 1 2011 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by IkNOwSTuff
 


the 1st and 4th are related to Catholicism, not true Christianism.



posted on Jul, 2 2011 @ 07:02 AM
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reply to post by AdamsMurmur
 



Men coming together to rip apart Christ's teachings and declare what's canon and what isn't canon?

The canon wasn't discussed at Nicea. The issue at hand at Nicea was the Arian conflict.

Here's a list of the issues discussed at the First Council of Nicea:

  1. The Arian question;
  2. The celebration of Passover;
  3. The Meletian schism;
  4. The baptism of heretics;
  5. The status of the lapsed in the persecution under Licinius.


edit on 2/7/2011 by octotom because: Added list

edit on 2/7/2011 by octotom because: (no reason given)

edit on 2/7/2011 by octotom because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2011 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by mbartelsm
 


Excuse me, but you owe everything to the ecumenical councils. I can't stand how websites like CARM take for granted that they can explain the trinity and aren't monophysites, monothelites, nestorians arians, or marcionites. All of these heresies are refuted and orthodoxy is laid out by the councils. Catholics in this regard are the original Christians and Protestants just piggy back off the good (ecumenical councils) and bad (Augustinian understanding of grace and original sin) while calling Catholics "not-Christian". Bare in mind that Roman Catholicism isn't the only Catholicism. You have: Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy(monophysite), Assyrians(nestorian), and Malankar St. Thomas (distinctive Indian monophysites) Christians too.
edit on 9-7-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 9 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 


You have good knowledge on church history and I enjoy your insights into other-than-Roman orthodoxies.
I wish I knew more about it than I do. I was into some searching around on info of the churches in the Holy Land and found it quite fascinating. Too bad for the ones in Baghdad and I am pretty unhappy about that to the point of being kind of sick.
edit on 9-7-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


There are a number of Churches in the Holy Land. There is the Eastern Orthodox (full custody of the Holy Sepulchre), Armenian Apostolic Church (partial custody), Roman Catholic (tiny piece of the Holy Sepulchre), then there are the Syrians (monophysite split with Eastern Liturgy), Melkites (Eastern Liturgical uniates with Rome), and Maronites (monothelite uniates with Rome). There are also a number of Chaldean Churches in the holy land, but they don't have a huge presence. The "Greek" Orthodox have custody of the Cave of the Nativity (widely attested to in Patristics and established by St. Helena) and the Holy Sepulchre (also found by St Helena through the help of Palestinian Christians). Protestants have a presence in the Holy Land as well, but often prove their total lack of any historical ties and understanding of the local Christian Tradition of the area as they keep trying to find "alternative" locations for Golgotha and the Nativity. Dating on the tombs in the Holy Sepulchre and Gordon's Garden Tomb (Protestant alternative), has shown that the tombs in the Garden Tomb were TOO OLD to be Yahshuah's tomb, who was placed in a "new tomb". The Sepulchre on the other hand, dates to the first century.

Anyways, I may be Orthodox, but I must say that the "Greek" Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem is an inept ethnocentric hindrance on Orthodoxy in Israel and Palestine. Before the Muslim captivity, the Orthodox Churches of the Middle East had their own identities and except for minor schisms with monophysites, were united. Under Muslim occupation though, things began to disintegrate. The local arab bishops and priests decreased in quality and theology was falling by the wayside, so the people begged for educated Greek clergy from Constantinople to manage things, and since then NOTHING has changed in Jerusalem. The Uniates ended up leaving the Church for Rome during the Crusades, being impressed by their might, and more recently Melkites and other such groups have been joining with Rome, because their Patriarch doesn't represent the Palestinian Christians. The necessity for Greek clergy is over, but to "maintain doctrinal integrity", the entire episcopacy of that Patriarchate is Greek. Though, despite all of the problems, the Patriarch still manages to produce the Holy Fire every year, so I would not go so far as to say there is no grace in that Patriarchate.

Antioch on the other hand has moved beyond the necessity for Greek clergy, has an enormous revival movement within Lebanon and Syria, and it is a decidedly Arabic Christian Patriarch. So great is this revival of spirit and theology from the first episcopol Chair of Peter (Peter was first bishop of Antioch) that the Church of Antioch has spread abroad beyond Arabic immigrants and is the most missionary Orthodox Church in the United States. I myself am an Antiochian Orthodox Christian. There is hope for the Churches in the middle east and it is only a matter of time before Jerusalem works out it's problems and lets the Palestinian Christians stand up. Until then, they always have Antioch and Sinai for spiritual help.
edit on 12-7-2011 by kallisti36 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 12 2011 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by kallisti36
 
You are more optimistic than I am.
It practically makes me cry to read this.
All those good things you are talking about and there are men who take what we would believe as being good, and find it bad for their own agenda and I fear for those people of whom you speak.



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

I understand your misgivings, but you have to understand something about the Orthodox, we aren't a solid mass like the Roman Catholic Church, we are fluid contained by our ecumenical doctrines and canons. Many people are impressed by how Roman Catholicism holds together due to the autocracy of the Pope. You don't argue with him and don't rock the boat or you are excommunicated. It does great things for unity, but what happens during great upheavals and trials. The centrality of See of Rome links to everything, so a bad Pope poisons the entire Church. So when the solid mass is disturbed by the shaking and mishandling of tribulation it cracks and breaks and those cracks will always be there. The Orthodox are not central and are fluid in opinions (theologuemen) which can often lead to bickering and arguing, which makes waves all the time. However, the fluid nature of the Church is contained by dogma, canon, and worship which all adhere to at the end of the day. The Jerusalem Patriarchate is an inept administeral mess, but they have the same beliefs, sacraments, liturgy, and God as the rest of the Church which at the end of the day is all we need. Eventually the waves will stop and Jerusalem will be better, but until then God will contain his church in right practice (orthopraxy) and right belief (orthodoxy).



posted on Jul, 13 2011 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
I have a ton of questions and also what I think are some answers but I would like to hear from a few of you before I put my 2 cents in.


Well first of all I have to say I really identify with the response from AdamsMurmur, often I feel like my particular views are an anomoly in the Christian world, but his responses really struck a chord with me



Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
1) have you heard of the council of Nicea? what do you think of it?


I tend to have a particular dislike of any group of men that gathers together to determine what the masses should think.


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
2) How do you rationalise the contradictions in the bible?


I just mentioned this in another thread, but I tend not to be dogmatic about areas of the Bible that don't make sense to me. I see God as pure, perfect, just and loving. Most of the Bible supports that, but there are parts that do not appear to support that. Those parts I attribute to either my own misunderstanding of what they really mean, or errancy in how the people who wrote those passages presented it. I do believe the Bible was inspired by God and is His message to us, but I also believe that it is told through the lens of men and that their particular biases may have gotten into the way of the message and altered it.


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
3) how old were you when you were indoctrinated or did you find God on your own? if so what brought him/her into your life?


I was very young when I found Him, in fact I'm not sure there was ever a time in my life that I didn't believe. I remember telling other kids that everything around us spoke of a creator, I would point to trees and such and describe the incredible complexity, and the impossibility that it just happened. I wasn't "indoctrinated", I can't even tell you whether or not my parents believed at all. I had no exposure to church or the Bible back then. But I still believed, just based on what I saw and felt. I felt Him moving in my life even then. There was a particular event that happened when I was 11 or 12, I prayed for a truly impossible miracle and was granted it. I don't remember having doubts before, but I know I never had any after that. I'm in my 50's now, but even now when I think about it it brings tears to my eyes, that He would reach down to that little boy and do that, it's just such an amazing and touching and very personal thing.


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
4)what do you think of the Vatican?


Oh you mean the Whore of Babylon? Don't get me started!


Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
5) what do you think Jesus would say about the state of christianity if he were around today?


Well I'm sure he's not happy with many of the churches/ religions, but nothing is happening that He didn't foretell, if you read Revelation chapters 2 and 3 He fully described the various types of churches we would see in the end times and they are all present and accounted for. But beyond the "churches" there is "The Church" which is His Body, and it consists of people from all walks of life and parts of all religious denominations (and even no denomination at all) who truly believe in Him and live their lives in faith. Those are the ones He's returning for some day.



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