WANTED 1 intelligent educated Christian to answer some questions on faith

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by marriah3330

 

This is so far removed from racism it isnt even in the same galaxy!!

Racism is based on ignorance and bigotry. my observations are simply observations without bias.
Do you seriously dispute most of the posts of a religious nature on this site are just drivel? Id say about 70% that Ive seen are all talking about Jesus return and the rapture or gods retribution for our evil ways etc etc yeah nothing stupid about that

In my opinion all churches are false prophets, all organised religion is set up to control people and move their resources towards a select few.

How can you not be on my side

This is exactly my point, according to christianities holy book most of what they do in ritual is against god!!!
Organised religion has been pushing for nearly 2000 years the line that they are the exclusive path to god. This is my problem not peoples belief in a god.


There is another possibility, the people who compiled the bible didnt have God in mind at all and instead it was chopped to pieces and put together again to serve a certain dogma?
I know thats just crazy talk isnt it, as if a book as important as the holy bible which was put together by a group of men whos purpose it was to control people could be wrong

1) sorta true, they came together to create a cohesive religion as Constantine saw the potential for instability if people believed different things, there was nothing benevolent about it. The purpose of including that was to see how an intelligent person aknowledges it.

2) seriously!!! did you even read the thread or just the OP? Jesus last words what were they? the bible has 3 conflicting answers. There are others but an intelligent person would see that and not be blinded by what other peole have told them. The fact none of you have ever picked up on this makes me question if any of you have read the bible and if you did why you didnt notice such a glaring inconsistancy.

3) once again you obviously didnt read the thread. Indoctrination is the correct term for giving religious instruction, any negative conotation you have with the word is not based on its actual meaning. I am not saying belief in god is false Im saying blindly following someone elses version of what god is or wants is not only false but stupid (or to put it another way, lacking in intelligence)
Your church sounds different and I think it seems nice, could be something I would appreciate.

4) hmmmm... interesting answer. Ill chew on that some more.

5) LOL so true so true, seriously if you hadnt of jumped on your high horse and got your knickers in a knot before you bothered to read the thread you would have realised were on the same side.

Peace to you as well

P.s no star from me as you made the effort to write a lengthy post without bothering to read the thread, several of your issues had been addressed on pages 2 and 3. In my opinion this isnt a sign of an intelligent person

edit on 16-5-2011 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)

I did read your thread, so what if its a lengthy post, I'm not intelligent because it was not short You asked each individual a question, and so I answered individually who cares if someone had some of the same ideas as me. And yes, some of the lost gospels were due to the council but that doesn't mean that the Bible isn't true. I said its just like racism, not that it is racist, just very similar. We are NOT on the same side, if you don't believe in the God in the Bible, then we are not on the same side. I think you got religious and spiritual mixed up. You say I'm not an intelligent person yet your so called proof is a wikipedia link about a study between the IQ levels of "religious" people in different countries and I told you my IQ level? You think that IQ is the only form of measured intelligence, I dont think so. You even said that my church seems different and nice, I feel that you are searching for the truth as I once have, I will pray for you to find it, as I have. You are insulting me for my faith, how much better are you than these men that have used God's name for war? Are you really any better? There is a god here on earth and he is not my god, he is doing his job in turning people away from the one and true God. You mock those that believe Jesus will return, well I guess you will know soon enough, and I pray that you take his side.
Peace,
Marriah

Maybe I should ask you hon, why aren't YOU on MY side? I really will pray for you, that your heart is not bitter against God and Jesus, and that you are loosened from the grip of the god of this world, and that you find God of heaven.
Peace and Love to you,
Marriah

Originally posted by SFlowers


4. The Vatican is useless and the pope is just a man. A glorified priest who gets his own country.

Of course the Pope is a man - no Catholic ever said otherwise! He is a priest, yes, and it's not *his* country. What makes you think that?
I have been waiting for a Catholic to come along, but so far none has appeared, so I suppose it's up to me to say that I am fed up with the anti-Catholic bigotry displayed by nearly everyone here.
One essential point to note : A minuscule number of Catholic priests have ever even been accused of paedophilia, even fewer have been proven guilty.
AFAIK, sports coaches are the occupational group most likely to commit acts against children. (Hence my signature). Then teachers, step-daddies, daddies and all others... including here in NZ, ambulance officers! (There was a paedophile ring exposed based around a group of ambulance officers who ran a group for teens, a few years back)
I have yet to meet a Roman Catholic who isn't a good, genuine Christian, and a lovely person - and I have met many!
Vicky

Originally posted by Akragon


As far as i've read Paul had no real contact with Christ, his thoughts were through "divine revelation"

So the actual creator of christianity wasn't Christ, nor was it anyone that had real contact with him

Widely believed, but not true.
People who get aerated that Christianity requires serious discipline from its followers, like to blame Paul, which is simply rather transparent!
Vicky

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by Akragon


As far as i've read Paul had no real contact with Christ, his thoughts were through "divine revelation"

So the actual creator of christianity wasn't Christ, nor was it anyone that had real contact with him

Widely believed, but not true.
People who get aerated that Christianity requires serious discipline from its followers, like to blame Paul, which is simply rather transparent!
Vicky

well if paul was the original "creator" of christianity, he didn't actually have any contact with Jesus, aside from the one time. Perhaps im wrong, but he says he wasn't taught. Yes i know..."divine revelation" but all of the bible is supposed to be divine revelation, or teachings from God. Yet any place you find "the lord comanded" these people should die. Im sorry that isn't God speaking, but again this is just my opinion...who am i?

Examples of what im talking about usually come from the Torah, but its still found in many other books. To name a few...

23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

2 Kings 2

1 Samuel 15
1Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.

2Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Fear Fear Fear....

Anyways....

This isn't really about blaming anyone. The authors of the bible arn't the problem with Christianity, its the inturpretations from those that preach to others. They tend to give their followers the wrong message, and it spreads like a disease.

Either way i tend to look to those who actually followed him. Or even gnostic writings, i think they're probably closer to the real teachings of Christ.

But who knows...

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by SFlowers


4. The Vatican is useless and the pope is just a man. A glorified priest who gets his own country.

Of course the Pope is a man - no Catholic ever said otherwise! He is a priest, yes, and it's not *his* country. What makes you think that?
I have been waiting for a Catholic to come along, but so far none has appeared, so I suppose it's up to me to say that I am fed up with the anti-Catholic bigotry displayed by nearly everyone here.
One essential point to note : A minuscule number of Catholic priests have ever even been accused of paedophilia, even fewer have been proven guilty.
AFAIK, sports coaches are the occupational group most likely to commit acts against children. (Hence my signature). Then teachers, step-daddies, daddies and all others... including here in NZ, ambulance officers! (There was a paedophile ring exposed based around a group of ambulance officers who ran a group for teens, a few years back)
I have yet to meet a Roman Catholic who isn't a good, genuine Christian, and a lovely person - and I have met many!
Vicky

I totally understand. Please know that I am not slamming Roman Catholics as people. My objections are on a theological and structural level. I think the allegation that all priests are pedophiles is absolute garbage. "Of course, if someone molests a child they are personally responsible, unless they are a Priest, in which case it's the entire Church's fault". I also get mad when Protestants accuse RC's of Mary worship and idolatry for using statues ("nevermind the Ark of the Covenant, when God said no images he meant none! Excuse me while I clean this family picture"). Idolatry is a sin of intent and no Catholic layman is worshiping Mary outside of the Redemptrix cult (which is condemned by the Vatican). I do think that Roman Catholic Mariology is excessive and wrong and that Michaelangelo's depiction of the Father (ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN in Orthodox iconography) as a bearded man in the sky had such far reaching consequences on Christian thought it would make your head spin. Then there is the bad juridical Augustinian theology, concept of hell, and papal power trips and abuses that lead to the reformation and resulting 50,000 Protestant denominations today. None of this however, applies to your typical Catholic believer just trying to be as Christian as they can with the resources available. No, the people are not to blame, judge, or condemn, but people have to understand what the rogue patriarchate did to Christendom.

reply to post by Vicky32


I'm glad to hear that I'm presenting Orthodoxy well. If you are interested, here is an amazing lecture given by Father Seraphim Rose; God's Revelation to the Human Heart: strannik.com... (first 20 mins or so are an introduction by Fr. Damascene; a contemporary of his. So feel free to skip if you just want to get to Fr. Seraphim) This is the man that lead me to Orthodoxy, perhaps he will make things clearer for you as well. If you enjoy that, see Nihilism the Root of the Modern Age: www.columbia.edu... It's the most lucid, Patristic diagnosis of the state of the world since the turn of the 20th century. It's a bit heavy and depressing so I would recommend you listen to God's Revelation to the Human Heart first

I would suggest reading the book of Romans. It should answer alot of questions. The best way to understand is to ask God and read the Bible. Alot of things in the New Testament are much different than the Old Testament. The first key to understanding is to realize that Jesus fullfilled the laws of Moses because God knew that we, as sinners, could not. All that is asked of us is to love God with all our heart, to love Jesus and believe that he delivered us from our sins, and to treat others as we would treat ourselves. The only way to come to God, is through the love of his Son, Jesus. I don't believe that the Bible contradicts itself just because God deals with those that choose not to obey his laws. It clearly states that God is jealous. He wants his children to choose to love him. I, for one, am jealous of my children, and if they disrespect me, they know they will be punished. Its as simple as that.
As for myself, I was raised in a Christian 'believing' home. I was never one to attend church as a child but believed (in my mind). I will tell you now that believing in your mind is entirely different that believing in your heart. Over the past few years, several events took place in my life that 'woke me up'. One evening, I gave my life to God and began praying for guidance, and with each day that passed, not only did I find a sense of peace, but I also found direction. I still do not attend church regularly because I feel that alot of todays church attending 'Christians' live totally different lives Mon through Sat than they do on Sundays, nor do I always agree with the Pastors sermons. Its possible that church can mislead and therefore I dont feel that attending church is mandatory in order to live for God, Mathew 18:20 says For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the middle of them. I will pray that you find the answers that you seek. God loves you and He is there for you, ask Him.

Originally posted by Akragon

well if paul was the original "creator" of christianity, he didn't actually have any contact with Jesus, aside from the one time. Perhaps im wrong, but he says he wasn't taught. Yes i know..."divine revelation" but all of the bible is supposed to be divine revelation, or teachings from God. Yet any place you find "the lord comanded" these people should die. Im sorry that isn't God speaking, but again this is just my opinion...who am i?

]

That is a huge "if"! I thought we had established pretty convincingly that Paul was not the original creator of Christianity! It existed before him, or how could he have a been a persecutor of Christians? (And he was - before he became an adherent, due to divine revelation.)
All your 'horror' stories come from the Old Testament, which is known as the Old Testament (Covenant) for a reason. God's way of relating to humanity has changed.
Humanity's understanding of God's revelation has also changed. Please note, I am not saying that God has changed!
Vicky

Originally posted by kallisti36
I totally understand. Please know that I am not slamming Roman Catholics as people. My objections are on a theological and structural level. I think the allegation that all priests are pedophiles is absolute garbage. "Of course, if someone molests a child they are personally responsible, unless they are a Priest, in which case it's the entire Church's fault". I also get mad when Protestants accuse RC's of Mary worship and idolatry for using statues ("nevermind the Ark of the Covenant, when God said no images he meant none! Excuse me while I clean this family picture"). Idolatry is a sin of intent and no Catholic layman is worshiping Mary outside of the Redemptrix cult (which is condemned by the Vatican). I do think that Roman Catholic Mariology is excessive and wrong and that Michaelangelo's depiction of the Father (ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN in Orthodox iconography) as a bearded man in the sky had such far reaching consequences on Christian thought it would make your head spin. Then there is the bad juridical Augustinian theology, concept of hell, and papal power trips and abuses that lead to the reformation and resulting 50,000 Protestant denominations today. None of this however, applies to your typical Catholic believer just trying to be as Christian as they can with the resources available. No, the people are not to blame, judge, or condemn, but people have to understand what the rogue patriarchate did to Christendom.

Oh I agree! My great-grandfather was a Presbyterian minister on the goldfields of Central Otago in the 1860s, and the only thing my Mum inherited from him as far as his views went, was a dogmatic anti-Catholicism.
It took many years for me to realise that Roman Catholics don't have horns and a tail! Now, a good 50% of my friends are Catholics (90% of them Italian) and my view is becoming more balanced.
I started out Open Brethren (Plymouth Brethren/Darby etc) and then wandered off to Anglicanism, now I describe myself as Anglican (High Anglican, the next thing to Catholic my Mum used to snort - I can just imagine her spinning in her grave!)
I have a friend from Ukraine who is Russian Orthodox/Brethren.. but he's never talked about Orthodox beliefs. Then, I got a book from the library about an American Jewish man who converted to Orthodox Christianity, and now I have eno#ered you... Maybe God is trying to tell me something?
Vicky
What's with the nannyware? Has it never encountered the word encounter before? Clue - it's a synonym for meet/met...
How insane!
Free Dictionary
Bomb
Gun
Faggot
Harlot
Strumpet
Knickers
Electric chair
Napalm
#
Bastard
Whore
(Result, only 1/12 words was censored entirely, and I am marvelling at my own mind! Why did I call the link what I did? Changing it now, but it's really too funny - however I can't leave it)
Murder

THE CHURCHES ARE ALL SYNOGUGES OF SATAN!!!! if you have been HOLY SPIRIT FILLED theres no way you can sit in the abominations that go on in church the pastors are wolves in sheeps clothing deciving who??? not any of YAHWEHS CHOOSEN ELECT CHILDREN!!!! only seeds of satan acting like they love JESUS on sunday then sinning like hell all week long YAHWEH is checking hearts and if your heart is not right with him you will feel his wrath, i was an atheist the first 28 yrs of my life then i was holy spirit filled (not religon filled) and my life has been filled with miracles and healings and deliverance just like JESUS the first born of many breatheran, now i am a licensed minister but more than that i am a soilder of the GOD of the army of isreal i do the works my brother yahshua did through the hOLY SPIRIT who lives inside of me with the FATHER, i have become his dwelling place and he has given me power over every spirit on earth and in heaven i know who i am in christ a royal priest CHOOSEN GENERATION child of the most high GOD and i have the testimonies and power to back it up i dare any pastors to preach doctrins of demons and allowing homosexual spirits to dance around the church to come aganist a child of the most high GOD we will not be decived and we will not sit back like scared christians bowing down to man instead of GOD careing more about the band than the abomination sitting in front of them!!!! JESUS is coming back for a glorius church, but it is not a building with four walls it is us our bodies HOLY AND PURE and RIGHT with our FATHER!!!!!!!!!!!!! many were called but only few were CHOOSEN PRAISE YAH!!!!!!!

reply to post by yahwehsprincess


When you use far too many punctuation marks and random capitalization, it somewhat dilutes your message.

However, each Christians' path is truly between themselves and Christ. There can be no other mediator between God and man (to quote Paul).

On the other side of that, Paul also urges us to not give up meeting together and to seek unity and fellowship.

So churches do play a part in the Church.

Personally, I don't think there's anyway that paul created christianity, starting with the fact I believe the sumerian Enki or Ea or Enki-Ea, is Jesus and is one side of Yehovah as depicted in scripture. That the sumerian Enlil is another side of Yehovah as depicted in scripture. That sumerian Anu is another side of Yehovah as referred to in scripture (he's Amen) and that evidence of this can be read in the sumerian and akkadian texts.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I disagree that theres no such thing as unbiased information, I consider it biased if you have a vested interest in the subject matter.

The church and christian websites, can you see any of them publishing anything that goes against their beliefs?
I dont think so, Religious nuts like your self are so blind to reality that anything that doesnt fit into their world view is automatically false or a forgery.

The truth of the matter is after the first council it was decided what it means to be christian and what you HAD to believe. Anything that didnt fit into this was destroyed and if you were caught with anything heretical you were killed. after the council a bishop sent Constantine a compilation of texts that were made into the first 50 official books of christianity.

As no minutes from the meeting exist we will never know all of what was actually discussed. Even if they didnt actually sit down and vote yes or no on each book that was around they set the stage for which books were acceptable. Within a few years texts that were either inline with this idea or edited so they were became the first official book of christianity

By the way thanks for answering one of the questions (ironically the one you found the most offensive)

1) have you heard of the council of Nicea? what do you think of it?

your answer= being the fugnorant IsmIST that I am I had never questioned what my religious leaders have told me and I had not heard of it, but after checking wiki and various christian websites I have found it to be the will of god and inline with christianity.

Cheers dude only 4 questions to go

Originally posted by marriah3330
Maybe I should ask you hon, why aren't YOU on MY side? I really will pray for you, that your heart is not bitter against God and Jesus, and that you are loosened from the grip of the god of this world, and that you find God of heaven.
Peace and Love to you,
Marriah

My heart is most definately not against God or Jesus.
But every fibre of my being is against organised religion.

If Im correct your faith is based on a group of equals discussing there relationship with god and their ideas of his word and will.

If this is correct Im genuinely happy for you and yes Ill admit even envious, I wish I had something definitive to fill my god hole but so far I havent found anything that makes sense to me.

I know you had other replies and Ill eventually get round to answering them but being honest its kinda depressing now that this thread has been hijacked into another believers vs non believers of which there are already 100's.

Maybe my wording was off in my OP but it was an honest, sincere and unbiased personal observation and I had genuine questions that I wanted genuine answers too.

The good news is I found an intelligent educated (educated about christain history) christian of genuine faith who is able to engage in intelligent discussion without taking things personally. A rarity (IMHO) in religious circles.
When this thread has died Ill reply to him and hopefully get this back on the right track and get some genuine answers to some questions Ive had for a long time.

Cheers

Originally posted by Vicky32

I have a friend from Ukraine who is Russian Orthodox/Brethren.. but he's never talked about Orthodox beliefs. Then, I got a book from the library about an American Jewish man who converted to Orthodox Christianity, and now I have eno#ered you... Maybe God is trying to tell me something?

Oh! You're talking about "Surprised by Christ". That's Fr. Bernstein, he's an Antiochian Orthodox Priest in the same diocese as me; my Priest is friends with him and I might get to meet him one day. He was a great guy to read because I was considering Messianic Judaism for a long time before I found Orthodoxy.

It's also interesting that you are Anglican, because for a long time the Anglicans were in dialogue with the Orthodox Church discussing unification. The dialogue broke down, because they weren't willing to compromise on certain things. Regardless, since Vatican II, the Anglicans are now actually closer to Orthodoxy than the Roman Catholics. C.S. Lewis, an Anglican, was also very close to Orthodox theology especially with his views of atonement which leaned more toward ransom soteriology and Christus Victor (patristic) as opposed to Protestant Penal Substitution atonement (novel and totally absent from Christian thought for a millennia). Here is an interesting observation in Orthodoxwiki concerning C. S. Lewis:

C.S. Lewis is much loved by many Orthodox Christians who often raise the question, "Was C.S. Lewis an anonymous Orthodox?" Lewis's Atonement Theology and Soteriology, as well as his understandings of heaven and hell, are very similar to that of the Orthodox and stand opposed to traditional Roman Catholic and Protestant understandings of these matters. Of course, Lewis remained an Anglican throughout his life; however, it is significant to note that for more than a century, and all through Lewis' life, the Anglican and Orthodox churches were studying union. The Orthodox gave up the quest for union in the late 1960s when it became apparent that liberalism, not orthodox theology, would prevail in the Church of England. It is very fair to describe Lewis as an "Anonymous Orthodox"—his official allegiance lay with the Church of England, but his sympathies lay with the Orthodox. The most thoughtful study of Lewis' relationship to Orthodoxy was written by Bishop Kallistos Ware of Diokleia, who also teaches at Oxford. In an article published in Sobornost (an Anglican-Orthodox Ecumenical magazine) entitled "C.S. Lewis: an 'Anonymous Orthodox'?" he explores this fascinating question. He humbly relates that Lewis has a tendency to "idealize us Orthodox," and affirms that "even though C.S. Lewis' personal contacts with the Orthodox Church were not extensive at the same time his thinking is often profoundly in harmony with the Orthodox standpoint." Although he can't be looked upon as an Orthodox writer, his consistent sympathy for Orthodoxy has to be considered. As one of his biographers recalls (in "C.S. Lewis and His Times," by George Sayer), after a holiday spent in Greece together with Lewis and his wife, Lewis told him that of all the liturgies he'd ever attended, he preferred the Greek Orthodox liturgy to anything that he had seen in the West, Protestant or Roman Catholic. Then he went on to say that of all the priests and monks that he had ever had the opportunity to meet, the Orthodox priests that he ran across in his sojourn in Greece were the holiest, most spiritual men he had ever met. C.S. Lewis referred to a certain look they had, a sense. Lewis himself, in one of his letters, speaks of having been at an Orthodox liturgy and he said he loved it. He said "some stood, some sat, some knelt and one old man crawled around the floor like a caterpillar." He "absolutely loved it." We only know for sure that C.S. Lewis loved the Orthodox Church, though he never joined it and remained in the Anglican Church.

Orthodox bias and slant aside, here is a quote straight from the horse's mouth:

Letters to Malcolm * "What pleased me most about a Greek Orthodox Mass I once attended was that there seemed to be no prescribed behavior for the congregation. Some stood, some knelt, some sat, some walked; one crawled about the floor like a caterpillar. And the beauty of it was that nobody took the slightest notice of what anyone else was doing. I wish we Anglicans would follow their example. One meets people who are perturbed because someone in the next pew does, or does not, cross himself. They oughn’t even to have seen, let alone censured. “Who art thou that judgest Another’s Servant?” – p. 10

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


Just reading this thread is a treasure trove of information and intellectual discourse. These are not stupid people, nor are they ignorant, or any of the other catch phrases used to describe people when we disagree with their world view (this holds true for all the posters in this thread, with the exception of the op, which pales in comparison to the intellectual, intelligent, thoughtful responses it has received, irregardless of its less than stellar attempt to pigeon hole huge sections of society into the "you ain't so smart category"! i love ya op, but you have to admit, your thread has grown into a library of alexandria and you think it's bad. lol!)

reply to post by undo


LOL

yeah it was a good read and yes I found what I was looking for with our orthodox friend.
I wasnt upset witrh the info in the thread just that it turned into a bit of a bitch slap session LOL
Looking back I probably should have been a bit less enthusiastic and confrontational in my OP, may have got less hate mail that way
But I do stick by my original statement that compared to society as a whole religious types are less intelligent. Could be because they already have all the answers that book of theirs.
Im not discriminating against one particular religion either.

Also I did a bit of googling myself today and *sigh* it appears I may have been wrong about Nicea *double face palm*

I couldnt believe when I culdnt find anything that I consider a reputable source for my theory.

Im actually about to type a "yes you were right I was wrong" post to my fugnorant friend. Let me tell you Im not looking forward to it.

Thanks for reading and bringing in some light heartedness when it has been necessary

star for you

P.s I know there are intelligent people out there who belong to every religion, I guess i was being a bit confrontational so I would attract the right type, I knew only people who considered themselves intelligent would reply to the answers

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well.....

As much as it pains me to do this I have to admit you were right I was wrong

Couldnt find a source on the net I found reputable to back up my claim about Nicea choosing the books for the bible.

That being said I do believe the foundations were laid for what we call the bible at that meeting and without having looked into it I assume that the book Constantine distributed was pretty much the bible as we know it today (with the obvious inclusions and deletians over time as the church deemed necessary)

But for now be happy, with great righteousness and the truth of god on your side you conquered ignorance

For educating me on that point Im gonna find a post of yours on this thread that isnt complete diarrhea and star it.

P.s your still Fugnorant

P.p.s yes Im sore loser