Originally posted by Kenshiro

Sorry, I thought that my previous posts made that clear. Agreed, to close off trade will not only hurt other countries but also ourselves (note, we are not self-sufficient note previous posts. Agreed, there needs to be something done to halt the influx of illegals into the country. Half of a million per year (as per the last census) is not only stretching our resources (money) but yes as others have posted there has been a marked increase in crime (verifiable by looking at the statisics released every month.
As to what I said earlier, there is a growing number of people who do beleive that we should shut our borders completely and pull in all of our troops and to "kiss off the rest of the world" if you look at my post, I was describing this to Spitting Cobra and as I stated, I am not a proponent (read suppported of this idea.
I apologized if you did not catch this

My bad, i'm complaining about people not understanding and i didn't even understand you. I am sorry, i should have none when you quoted spittingcobra, who obviously has no clue about the illegal immigration here in the states.

How long can hold raw meat in front of a hungry tiger before he takes it?
You people fail to realize that american companys are taking away from americans not outsiders. American are killing this country not outsiders.
American was built and defended by outsiders.

Is it so wrong to want to live in a better place?
What you people are saing about mexicans, the high class americans are saing about the rest of america.

This is a HATE thread....

Has anyone here been directly affected by a mexican? Rapes and murders happen all the time by amreicans.... It dosent matter the creed....

Originally posted by SpittinCobra
How long can hold raw meat in front of a hungry tiger before he takes it?
You people fail to realize that american companys are taking away from americans not outsiders. American are killing this country not outsiders.
American was built and defended by outsiders.

Is it so wrong to want to live in a better place?
What you people are saing about mexicans, the high class americans are saing about the rest of america.

This is a HATE thread....

Has anyone here been directly affected by a mexican? Rapes and murders happen all the time by amreicans.... It dosent matter the creed....

SpittingCobra
1) The Idea is closing of the borders to illeagals not to all.
2)If mexican (or anyone eles for that matter who wishes to enter the country legally would and should be allowed.
3) from a full reading of this tread, mexicans have not been singled out (sorry if you feel that they have).
4)How does wanting to protect yourself and your family make you nbelieve that this is a hate thread?
5) do you have statistics showing the american companies are taking away from americans? (other than jobs)
7) Yes, american has grown, prospered and been defended by "outsiders" but you are forgetting that the ones that defended this country were all legals to my knowledge there have been no ilegals that have been in any war since the korean war.
8) as to personal experience, yes, I am one who have been hurt by theses ilegals. I have lost jobs to them as they are paid well below what the minimum wage and on 2 separate occasions, Hispanics have attempted to rob me and my wife one by hand (mano a mano) and the second with a knife. Both times, I had made a bad decision to go into areas in the city that was predominately popultated by ilegals (hispanic as well as other nationalities). Also, once ilegals start moving into areas, housing values drop dramatically and the crime rate goes up. both of these are statistically proved. Let me know what city and area that you live in and I will be most gladly provide you with data to back this up.
Again, I must stress that the idea of closing the borders to illegals will in the end benefit both americans as well as those "outsiders (and yes the legal mexicans) as we will be able to better take care of the legal population by bettering our educational system, our health system as well as in many other areas.
As for the above statment, if you need proof that the influx of ilegals is not detrimental to both the educational and health systems, please refer to the (unfortunately) defeat recent proposition in California which would have made ilegals ineligible to enter into the school (public) and would also make them responsible for paying thier medical costs instead of having the local, state, and federal monies that are being bled to pay for it now.
I look forward to your response (as long as you present in a logical way and are able to back up your broad statements.

1. land mined "no man's land"
2. 20' high concrete wall with electrified barbed wire on top
3. Every 100', a small tower with a globe-housed rotating camera, remote directed spotlights, other sensors
4. motion sensors
5. numerous warning signs in English, Spanish, Portugese, etc. as well as directions on how to LEGALLY immigrate to America.
6. Less manpower, as once sensors tripped, can then rely on just small teams to investigate, instead of the numerous manpower used to patrol an unprotected border. Just as keeps allowed medieval armies to easily defend against an army 3 times the size.

That's my suggestions anyhow.

I have NO problem with LEGAL immigration, but ILLEGAL immigration (regardless of nationality, color, etc.) is theft...pure and simple. It's a robbery of resources, benefits, etc. especially when combined with the practice of creating "instant citizens" and shipping money back to the homeland, instead of putting it back into the economy like good consumers.

Originally posted by Kenshiro



SpittingCobra
1) The Idea is closing of the borders to illeagals not to all.
See I wasnt getting that, close the boarders means close them.

2)If mexican (or anyone eles for that matter who wishes to enter the country legally would and should be allowed.
I agree

3) from a full reading of this tread, mexicans have not been singled out (sorry if you feel that they have).
Closeing the boarder of mexico is singling out mexicans, by its very nature.

4)How does wanting to protect yourself and your family make you nbelieve that this is a hate thread?
If you feel YOUR family is safer ok, but closing the boarder does not make mine safer. People are in danger all the time I accept that.

5) do you have statistics showing the american companies are taking away from americans? (other than jobs)
By moving companys to mexico is taking away from americans... I can get many links of this being so... One big one is RCA....

7) Yes, american has grown, prospered and been defended by "outsiders" but you are forgetting that the ones that defended this country were all legals to my knowledge there have been no ilegals that have been in any war since the korean war.

To your knowlage, I dont know about illegals... Im sure some have false paper work then and now....

8) as to personal experience, yes, I am one who have been hurt by theses ilegals. I have lost jobs to them as they are paid well below what the minimum wage and on 2 separate occasions, Hispanics have attempted to rob me and my wife one by hand (mano a mano) and the second with a knife. Both times, I had made a bad decision to go into areas in the city that was predominately popultated by ilegals (hispanic as well as other nationalities). Also, once ilegals start moving into areas, housing values drop dramatically and the crime rate goes up. both of these are statistically proved. Let me know what city and area that you live in and I will be most gladly provide you with data to back this up.
This could have been any creed, it just happen to be mexican or spanish or latain.....

Again, I must stress that the idea of closing the borders to illegals will in the end benefit both americans as well as those "outsiders (and yes the legal mexicans) as we will be able to better take care of the legal population by bettering our educational system, our health system as well as in many other areas.
Closing the boarders is closing the boarders. The boarders are closed now to illegals, your argument is for something that is in place now. The are going to get in regardless.

As for the above statment, if you need proof that the influx of ilegals is not detrimental to both the educational and health systems, please refer to the (unfortunately) defeat recent proposition in California which would have made ilegals ineligible to enter into the school (public) and would also make them responsible for paying thier medical costs instead of having the local, state, and federal monies that are being bled to pay for it now.

And this should be the case.....

Bye the way you skipped six.

FYI -- it's borders, not boarders


I like Gaz's ideas, you running for pres ? you get my vote

Originally posted by elevatedone
FYI -- it's borders, not boarders


I like Gaz's ideas, you running for pres ? you get my vote

Thanks for pointing out all my flaws.

sorry, I am at work so I did not run spell check and as for # 6, I had edited it out but forgot to update the ones underneath sorry

Going back to my very first point..... It can NOT, is that big enough, it can NOT be done.

[edit on 3-8-2004 by SpittinCobra]

Originally posted by SpittinCobra

Again, I must stress that the idea of closing the borders to illegals will in the end benefit both americans as well as those "outsiders (and yes the legal mexicans) as we will be able to better take care of the legal population by bettering our educational system, our health system as well as in many other areas.
Closing the boarders is closing the boarders. The boarders are closed now to illegals, your argument is for something that is in place now. The are going to get in regardless.

SpittingCobra-- I do not understand where you are coming from did you see how many illegals are getting in everyday? About 1500 a day, about 500,000 a year, the system in place does not work. How can you say "The borders are closed now to illegals, your argument is for something that is in place now." You are right the illegals are not allowed in but they are still getting in by the thousands.

Can you give me one positive plausible reason why we should not pursue the idea of making the US/Mexico Border safer and harder to get across. Why do you hate the idea so much? I have given you several reasons why we need to but i do not get anything back but, "Thats racism, you hate Mexicans". I do not hate Mexicans, they are good people and i like their food.

[edit on 3-8-2004 by AntiPolitrix]

Way way before 9/11 this was a problem. I've never even looked at it in terms of terrorism. It's a money/social problem. There should be massive deportation followed by serious border crackdowns. If they want a better life, they either need to fix the problems in their own country or come here legally. It's not hatred to ask that people follow the legal route. I'm expected to follow the rules here. I'm expected to pay taxes here. Anyone who comes here should be in the same boat as I am.

It's not about "closing borders", it's about securing borders. The argument that "they" will just get in by some other means is not even relevant. The point is that "they" will no longer find it so easy to get in by way of the Mexican border. I've seen the comparisons to yards, fenced yards. In my mind, our country is like a house. You don't leave the back door standing wide open just because, if you close it, someone can break in through the window anyway. You secure all entrances. All openings. You control who comes in because it's your house. You pay for it. You bought the furniture. You clean it, or pay to have it cleaned. You have the right to decide who enters your home. If someone breaks in, you don't let them hang around so long that you finally decide they can just go ahead and live there. You throw them OUT. If they won't leave, you have them removed. Same with the borders. It's not racist. It's not hatred. It's having the right and the presence of mind to control who comes into your home.

It's also a point of living up to the duty of protecting those who live in your home. If you're the head of the household (president/govt), it's your responsibility to protect your family (citizens). Just because the family fights internally, that doesn't mean it's therefor ok to let outsiders walk in without your permission and join in the fray. Yes, America has criminals of all types.... so we do not need any more people coming here to break the law. We don't need illegal alien rapists to keep our own American rapists company. We don't need to feed, clothe and educate illegal aliens. We don't need government time and effort spent trying to pass laws to protect illegals and give them rights here. They must be removed.

As for violence, unfortunately that's a fact of life when it comes to home defense. Those trying to enter illegally have the choice of whether or not to put themselves in harm's way, just as a criminal has the choice of whether or not to break into someone's home. They stand the chance of being injured or killed themselves. They make a conscious choice, so the consequences are really on their own heads.

Originally posted by AntiPolitrix



SpittingCobra-- I do not understand where you are coming from did you see how many illegals are getting in everyday?

[edit on 3-8-2004 by AntiPolitrix]

For them to be illegal, there is a system in place to keep them out. They can not go to a check point and come in. You want to make it where everyone has to come in through the gates... Its not going to happen.....

Is that what you mean by, closing the borders?

It CAN be done... Take a look at the Great Wall of China. They built it ages ago, and they didn't have power cranes, etc. The Wall would pay for itself (in less manpower needed to patrol the border) in under a decade I'd wager.

I like Gaz's ideas, you running for pres ?

Nope, I lack one of the qualifications...I'm not a millionaire...

[edit on 3-8-2004 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by torque
Way way before 9/11 this was a problem. I've never even looked at it in terms of terrorism. It's a money/social problem. There should be massive deportation followed by serious border crackdowns. If they want a better life, they either need to fix the problems in their own country or come here legally. It's not hatred to ask that people follow the legal route. I'm expected to follow the rules here. I'm expected to pay taxes here. Anyone who comes here should be in the same boat as I am.

It's not about "closing borders", it's about securing borders. The argument that "they" will just get in by some other means is not even relevant. The point is that "they" will no longer find it so easy to get in by way of the Mexican border. I've seen the comparisons to yards, fenced yards. In my mind, our country is like a house. You don't leave the back door standing wide open just because, if you close it, someone can break in through the window anyway. You secure all entrances. All openings. You control who comes in because it's your house. You pay for it. You bought the furniture. You clean it, or pay to have it cleaned. You have the right to decide who enters your home. If someone breaks in, you don't let them hang around so long that you finally decide they can just go ahead and live there. You throw them OUT. If they won't leave, you have them removed. Same with the borders. It's not racist. It's not hatred. It's having the right and the presence of mind to control who comes into your home.

It's also a point of living up to the duty of protecting those who live in your home. If you're the head of the household (president/govt), it's your responsibility to protect your family (citizens). Just because the family fights internally, that doesn't mean it's therefor ok to let outsiders walk in without your permission and join in the fray. Yes, America has criminals of all types.... so we do not need any more people coming here to break the law. We don't need illegal alien rapists to keep our own American rapists company. We don't need to feed, clothe and educate illegal aliens. We don't need government time and effort spent trying to pass laws to protect illegals and give them rights here. They must be removed.

As for violence, unfortunately that's a fact of life when it comes to home defense. Those trying to enter illegally have the choice of whether or not to put themselves in harm's way, just as a criminal has the choice of whether or not to break into someone's home. They stand the chance of being injured or killed themselves. They make a conscious choice, so the consequences are really on their own heads.

Nice comparisson, glad to hear from you. Since Sept 11th, this should be P1 but unfortunaty, it is not.

Yes, Spitting Cobra... everyone through the gates, all accounted for, either granted access or turned away with instructions on how to enter legally.

And I agree... since 9/11 the country's security on all fronts should have been priority #1. I cannot believe it is even considered debatable. The only arguments should be whether to build a physical structure or to use highly increased manpower and technology to keep illegals out on all sides. The decision TO keep them out should be a given, not just here but in every country. Trade is important, no question, but trade doesn't have to go hand in hand with unprotected borders. Anyone who demanded such a condition should be reconsidered as a trading partner. Secure borders don't affect trade, they only affect the flow of people and goods in and out of a country. It's not a bad thing. It's not meant to insult or harm anyone. It's just a method of control and protection.

Originally posted by SpittinCobra

Originally posted by AntiPolitrix



SpittingCobra-- I do not understand where you are coming from did you see how many illegals are getting in everyday?

[edit on 3-8-2004 by AntiPolitrix]

For them to be illegal, there is a system in place to keep them out. They can not go to a check point and come in. You want to make it where everyone has to come in through the gates... Its not going to happen.....

Is that what you mean by, closing the borders?

So Spittingcobra, what you are saying is that if there was no system to protect the US borders, property, lives and resources, then they would / could not be considered as ilegal.
Is this correct?
If so, then, by using your own argument here, there would be no one in jails and they could not be considered criminals if there were no laws (as well as a police force) to curtail their activities?
To continue in that vein, it would then be okay for these people to commit robbery, rape, murder etc as there would not be a system in place to govern them.
Is this a correct expansion of your statement????
Come on now, I would expect a better argument from you as you are of Writer status here at ATS.

Secure borders don't affect trade, they only affect the flow of people and goods in and out of a country.

Kind of a contradiction there, but a clarification may be that secure borders only affect the flow of illegal immigrants and goods, not legitimate ones. Goods can still be shipped, trucked, etc. and trade can still occur....

This may add fuel to the fire, but it should be known that on January 1, 2005, the NAFTA agreement signed in 1995 by the U.S., Canada, and Mexico says that Mexican (and Canadian) trucks will have open access to U.S. roads.

The Canadians have their stuff under control, but in a country as corrupt as Mexico, as amazing as it is to see the people, drugs, and weapons smuggled across the U.S. border now, imagine what the smugglers can hide in 18-wheelers...


[edit on 8/3/2004 by ThunderCloud]

I didn't see it as a contradiction.... I figured "trade" being legal was a given. Secure borders don't affect it. Only the in and out of people and things, be they legal or otherwise. Sorry if I was unclear.