How difficult would it be to implement infrastructure for an opensource internet project?

Working together with the Netsukuku community, and with a grassroots community of volunteers working toward the same ends, how difficult would it be to establish permanent infrastructure for internet in the spirit of open source? The hardware which forms the backbone of this internet should be based on p2p and wireless technologies, and decentralization, which would make censorship and 'kill-switches' that much more difficult. The reason that something like this is absolutely necessary in these tumultuous times is for unfettered access to information, networking & communication, and the moving away from corporatization and monopolization of the inter-webs. The potential for misplaced power and devious intent, or a seizing of the internet, is unfortunately not a stretch of the imagination these days. How much would implementation of this network cost? How much of the networks infrastructure could rely on wireless connections and p2p? Modern wireless networking technologies should be able to minimize the costs of implementation, but would router hubs need to be hardwired? Feel free to share your thoughts and feedback.

The Netsukuku Community

Unless you're going wireless with it, it could be a massive undertaking.. The internet as we know it started to take ground in the 70s .. it rides atop a network of copper, fiber satellite and wireless networks.. replacing it or re-creating it isn't an easy matter.

A quick google search proves that a few of these networks already exist.

One of them is the 'TOR' network.

There is also an open source financial system based on P2P called BitCoin.

Originally posted by Conscious
A quick google search proves that a few of these networks already exist.

One of them is the 'TOR' network.

There is also an open source financial system based on P2P called BitCoin.

TOR requires the existing internet to function.. I don't think that counts really, creating a free and open internet alternative would be massive.. now if you want to build something like TOR that uses the internet and just snakes around to protect privacy .. ( encryption and onion routing ) then sure.. that's easier..

TOR suffers extreme slowness .. and has it's privacy drawbacks as well

Originally posted by Conscious
A quick google search proves that a few of these networks already exist.

One of them is the 'TOR' network.

There is also an open source financial system based on P2P called BitCoin.

No, TOR uses existing infrastructure.

Laying down the infrastructure for a parallel internet would be a colossus undertaking, impossible without government sponsorship or massive private sector investment.

Edit: @miniatus: snap!

Originally posted by john_bmth

Originally posted by Conscious
A quick google search proves that a few of these networks already exist.

One of them is the 'TOR' network.

There is also an open source financial system based on P2P called BitCoin.

No, TOR uses existing infrastructure.

Laying down the infrastructure for a parallel internet would be a colossus undertaking, impossible without government sponsorship or massive private sector investment.

Edit: @miniatus: snap!

edit on 15-5-2011 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)

from what I understand with Netsukuku there is no need for router hubs, because it relies on decentralized p2p connection. I would imagine however that some serious investment would be necessary, but that is not really an insurmountable hurdle with a grassroots movement. Volunteers experienced with overseeing fundraising, and the generosity of the open source community could very well prove to be sufficient in raising the investment capital necessary, that is if the necessary hardware for such a p2p internet is minimal, as wireless+p2p would ensure.

Thanks for the heads up about some of these other projects.

Tor and BATMAN are the most promising technologies as of today. Believe me, the opensource mentality is catching on big time, and this includes technologies done right(tm) instead of technology done corporately(tm)

Tor is still a bit rough around the edges, but it works.

Linux kernel recently added support for BATMAN, i have no expectations for apple or microsoft of doing the same though

Since the ACTUAL cables and connections between homes are owned by TPTB, it is quite impossible to create a P2P internet without using those.

Although, if using TPTB's connections a new protocol could be created.

Instead of HTTP:// we would have a P2P://
(I'm not sure if TOR or something else works this way already.)

Creating new infrastructure would be impossible without some profitable movement, as you would have to be bathing in money or run the world to do something like this unless someone creates some sort of super-across-the-world wireless connective technology, rendering the cables and wires useless.

Wireless with Baloons or drones or masts.

Or use the entire planet or ionsphere after all it can transmit electricity so why not just modulate it

reply to post by Conscious


Batman enables messaging without the infrastructure. WLAN, mobile phones, RADIO links etc.

The greatest innovation in this version is B.A.T.M.A.N's support of multiple network devices. Now a computer or router running B.A.T.M.A.N can be deployed on a central point, like a church or another high building, and have several wired or wireless network interfaces attached to it. When so deployed, B.A.T.M.A.N can relay network data in more than one direction without any retransmission delay.

reply to post by mrphilosophias


And how would you connect these peers? Even if you had the raw materials to potentially lay down the infrastructure (again, a massive financial investment, think $tens to hundreds of millions), how would you lay it all down? Even with a volunteer force, you would need to get the official go-ahead to start digging up the roads and pathways to lay down cabling. And that's just one teeny weeny aspect of the whole process! I hate to say it, but an internet on any meaningful scale is way, way WAY beyond the scope of any grass roots organisation.

Originally posted by Conscious
Since the ACTUAL cables and connections between homes are owned by TPTB, it is quite impossible to create a P2P internet without using those.

Although, if using TPTB's connections a new protocol could be created.

Instead of HTTP:// we would have a P2P://

Creating new infrastructure would be impossible without some profitable movement, as you would have to be bathing in money or run the world to do something like this unless someone creates some sort of super-across-the-world wireless connective technology, rendering the cables and wires useless.

from what I understand netsukuku is working on hammering out the theory for a new fractal geometry based p2p protocol. They claim that it will be necessary for every user to purchase a netsukuku transceiver. With enough users adopting this protocol, and using the netsukuku transceivers, and with a broad & even enough distribution of hardware, it should in theory be possible to do this without any hardwired connections. The plus side is that netsukuku can also connect to the internet by traditional means.

Originally posted by john_bmth
reply to post by mrphilosophias

 

And how would you connect these peers? Even if you had the raw materials to potentially lay down the infrastructure (again, a massive financial investment, think $tens to hundreds of millions), how would you lay it all down? Even with a volunteer force, you would need to get the official go-ahead to start digging up the roads and pathways to lay down cabling. And that's just one teeny weeny aspect of the whole process! I hate to say it, but an internet on any meaningful scale is way, way WAY beyond the scope of any grass roots organisation.

edit on 15-5-2011 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)

see above. each user would need a netsukuku compatible transceiver, but with enough it should be possible to make it completely wireless right?

Originally posted by dbove
reply to post by Conscious

 

Batman enables messaging without the infrastructure. WLAN, mobile phones, RADIO links etc.

They still can be easily monitored or policed by TPTB.

We would need new and secure, open source and completely P2P infrastucture that runs on some wireless free technology. It would take a genie and 3 wishes to make that come to fruition.

Originally posted by dbove
reply to post by Conscious

 

Batman enables messaging without the infrastructure. WLAN, mobile phones, RADIO links etc.

sounds versatile, and that is ideal for such an undertaking.

Originally posted by Conscious
Since the ACTUAL cables and connections between homes are owned by TPTB, it is quite impossible to create a P2P internet without using those.

Although, if using TPTB's connections a new protocol could be created.

Instead of HTTP:// we would have a P2P://
(I'm not sure if TOR or something else works this way already.)

Creating new infrastructure would be impossible without some profitable movement, as you would have to be bathing in money or run the world to do something like this unless someone creates some sort of super-across-the-world wireless connective technology, rendering the cables and wires useless.

edit on 15-5-2011 by Conscious because: (no reason given)

TOR works that way, it is standard http but an encrypted tunnel that uses onion routing.. the extension is .onion instead of .com .. and if you browse purely within the onion network you're pretty secure as long as you follow all of the security guidlines ( or better yet, use the tor browser bundle ).. you can browse outside of the tor network and be entirely anonymous because you'll pop out with a random ip using an exit node.. but some risks exist there because you don't know who's running that exit node and many strongly believe the government has quite a few set up .. once you browse a site that isn't .onion then you're only secure if you don't provide any identifiable information.. so no logging into facebook .. or ATS

Originally posted by Conscious

Originally posted by dbove
reply to post by Conscious

 

Batman enables messaging without the infrastructure. WLAN, mobile phones, RADIO links etc.

They still can be easily monitored by TPTB.

We would need new and secure, open source and completely P2P infrastucture that runs on some wireless free technology. It would take a genie and 3 wishes to make that come to fruition.

I disagree. I think it would only require a willing community of volunteers, some hard work, organization, and delegation by project managers. I'm an idealist-what else can I say? :-D

Originally posted by miniatus

Originally posted by Conscious
Since the ACTUAL cables and connections between homes are owned by TPTB, it is quite impossible to create a P2P internet without using those.

Although, if using TPTB's connections a new protocol could be created.

Instead of HTTP:// we would have a P2P://
(I'm not sure if TOR or something else works this way already.)

Creating new infrastructure would be impossible without some profitable movement, as you would have to be bathing in money or run the world to do something like this unless someone creates some sort of super-across-the-world wireless connective technology, rendering the cables and wires useless.

edit on 15-5-2011 by Conscious because: (no reason given)

TOR works that way, it is standard http but an encrypted tunnel that uses onion routing.. the extension is .onion instead of .com .. and if you browse purely within the onion network you're pretty secure as long as you follow all of the security guidlines ( or better yet, use the tor browser bundle ).. you can browse outside of the tor network and be entirely anonymous because you'll pop out with a random ip using an exit node.. but some risks exist there because you don't know who's running that exit node and many strongly believe the government has quite a few set up .. once you browse a site that isn't .onion then you're only secure if you don't provide any identifiable information.. so no logging into facebook .. or ATS

Is ATS as bad as GLP in this regard?

Originally posted by mrphilosophias

see above. each user would need a netsukuku compatible transceiver, but with enough it should be possible to make it completely wireless right?

Well, I was reading their wiki entry and they propose using powerful wireless transmitters with kilometre ranges. Even this would require thousands of such transmitters for any meaningful coverage, which alone will require a very large support structure to power & maintain such transmitters. Again, we're stepping into big boy territory in terms of financial investment. We're still looking at realistically hundreds of millions to purchase, install and maintain such an infrastructure. I hate to be a party pooper but I really don't think an indie internet on any meaningful scale is really viable with current technology.

Originally posted by miniatus

TOR works that way, it is standard http but an encrypted tunnel that uses onion routing.. the extension is .onion instead of .com .. and if you browse purely within the onion network you're pretty secure as long as you follow all of the security guidlines ( or better yet, use the tor browser bundle ).. you can browse outside of the tor network and be entirely anonymous because you'll pop out with a random ip using an exit node.. but some risks exist there because you don't know who's running that exit node and many strongly believe the government has quite a few set up .. once you browse a site that isn't .onion then you're only secure if you don't provide any identifiable information.. so no logging into facebook .. or ATS

Exactly.

What we would need is a free open source wireless p2p connection technology for infrastructure that can connect across the world and a completely p2p open source free operating system that can connect to the infrastructure.