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Chicago Ordered to Hire 111 Black Firefighters

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posted on May, 14 2011 @ 07:56 PM
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Gender and race indicators need to be removed from all applications (work/school, etc.). If there were no way to state male or female/white or black or etc; then there would be no way to be a racist until a face to face and so therefore people who were the most qualified would make the first cut.




posted on May, 14 2011 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by superman2012

Thanks for seeing that your theory is ridiculous...anytime I can help someone deny ignorance is a good day.


Sorry for not just automatically jumping on the "blacks are just naturally stupider than whites" bandwagon the rest of you had piled onto, and doing a little digging.

I think I have sourced more than enough to show that there may be a very good explanation for why blacks do so much worse on the entrance exam than whites, and I dont really care if you buy it or not. You dont have to. The guys won their case.

The fact that none of you even took the time to do a little research and find out if there might be something wiggy with the test speaks volumes, honestly.



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by searching411
 


I would agree with that. But, if the some white candidates were indeed getting copies of old tests of the entrance exam from friends and family in the department, that method wouldnt help. They would always out perform those who were taking the test blind.



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by Bob Sholtz
if you're an employer, do you want the "c" student or the "a" student to work for you? i think the jobs should be given to the most qualified candidates, regardless of race (however, race could be a factor in scoring, i've seen it happen before. if that is the case, then those who manipulated the scores should be fired).


To answer your question about whether or not an employer would want a c or a student, I will tell you that I have been told by more than one person who handles hiring that often they do want the b and c students.

A students are sometimes considered to be not as social,


Three Geeks and a Law Blog has a post today suggesting that firms might do better hiring the C students -- the ones who were more likely to look beyond grades and develop relationships and generally exhibit skills that mean they'll be able to recruit and keep clients.


Read more: www.businessinsider.com...

So as obvious as the answer to that question may sound, it really isnt that obvious. There is an assumption made that excellence in thinking and academics is what companies want, (I know, I made it myself and have a great GPA) but sometimes that isnt really what they are looking for. Sometimes they just want competent, and social.

And sometimes they just want someone that wont outshine them and make them look bad.

discuss.joelonsoftware.com...


Good question. I also want to know how to get the B's on your team to hire A's. Is it even possible?

I can't even get the A resumes to stick! The hiring team wants an average good worker bee, not a super smart person with good work habits, and A resumes scare them into thinking they won't be able to retain the As.



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 08:47 PM
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The cops all over have been doing this for years.

Maybe the police unions are getting tired of the firemen beating them in all the guns'n'hoses games that go on and figure forcing the FD's to hire as many morons as the PD's have been hiring will even the games up a bit.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by superman2012

Thanks for seeing that your theory is ridiculous...anytime I can help someone deny ignorance is a good day.


Sorry for not just automatically jumping on the "blacks are just naturally stupider than whites" bandwagon the rest of you had piled onto, and doing a little digging.

I think I have sourced more than enough to show that there may be a very good explanation for why blacks do so much worse on the entrance exam than whites, and I dont really care if you buy it or not. You dont have to. The guys won their case.

The fact that none of you even took the time to do a little research and find out if there might be something wiggy with the test speaks volumes, honestly.


They won their case? Again, I will have to ask you for sources as I have provided mine to you. I think you misunderstand me. I do not believe that (in your words) " blacks are just naturally stupider than whites". I have never said that. I did a little (very little) research, and just provided the FACT that not just whites cheated on these exams. If you are having problems understanding this please let me know and I will attempt to draw an animation for you to understand more fully. I never said once that the tests aren't biased towards a certain race...that being said, I cannot say either way as I haven't seen the tests. A previous poster wrote about a man who was dyslexic and studied his A55 off to get a good mark. No one is exempt from studying and giving 100%.
I don't care what you say.

Edit: to have a good discussion here, I must request that you respond to every one of my comments, not just whatever suits your fancy like you did above.
edit on 14-5-2011 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Speaking as an employer and as a fireman, I would want the A student. Why would anyone settle for second best? Your theory is flawed.



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


And I must tell you that I will only respond if and when I want to. I dont have to prove anything to you. I dont really care what you think. I laid out a case that shows that there is a distinct possibility that the reason some whites were getting better scores is because there was cheating involved. Its not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This far after the fact, we are unlikely to ever get that. But it certainly does open the possibility that there was a problem with the way those entrance tests were handled in the first place. Something you certainly didnt look into at all until I brought it up.

Virtually everyone here was willing to automatically assume that those guys did more poorly on those tests because of their race. No one cared at all to look into the test itself and see if there was a possible problem with it. Why? Because you want to believe that there is no racism against minorities and they are all whiners.

And I am the first person to condemn it if indeed that is the case. But at least I consider both sides of the argument and check first. In this case, it looks like there are grounds for a reasonable suspicion those entrance exams are being rigged. Why? Because rigging of exams and cheating is going on inside the department and they have been caught at it with the EMS exams.

Its not that big a stretch knowing that Chicago fire departments and police forces tend to be nepotistic to say there is a good possibility that people that they want to pass could have been given copies of the exam or old exams ahead of time.

I would LOVE to be able to find out how many of the people who made that 85 mark had friends and relatives already in the department. You see Im not black. Im Scots Irish, and my fathers family is from Illinois. And its no secret there that you do better in the police and fire departments if you are Irish and have relatives inside.



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 10:24 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


My theory is supported with links.

Oh, and I am the fire chief of the Chicago fire department too.
See how easy that is?
edit on 14-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by superman2012
 


My theory is supported with links.

Oh, and I am the fire chief of the Chicago fire department too.
See how easy that is?
edit on 14-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)


Your links were quashed by links that I provided that were at a later date. I never said I was a fire chief, I am on the volunteer fire department in my community. I also noted you still never responded to everything I said, again.



posted on May, 14 2011 @ 10:45 PM
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Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by superman2012
 


And I must tell you that I will only respond if and when I want to. I dont have to prove anything to you. I dont really care what you think. I laid out a case that shows that there is a distinct possibility that the reason some whites were getting better scores is because there was cheating involved. Its not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. This far after the fact, we are unlikely to ever get that. But it certainly does open the possibility that there was a problem with the way those entrance tests were handled in the first place. Something you certainly didnt look into at all until I brought it up.

Virtually everyone here was willing to automatically assume that those guys did more poorly on those tests because of their race. No one cared at all to look into the test itself and see if there was a possible problem with it. Why? Because you want to believe that there is no racism against minorities and they are all whiners.

And I am the first person to condemn it if indeed that is the case. But at least I consider both sides of the argument and check first. In this case, it looks like there are grounds for a reasonable suspicion those entrance exams are being rigged. Why? Because rigging of exams and cheating is going on inside the department and they have been caught at it with the EMS exams.

Its not that big a stretch knowing that Chicago fire departments and police forces tend to be nepotistic to say there is a good possibility that people that they want to pass could have been given copies of the exam or old exams ahead of time.

I would LOVE to be able to find out how many of the people who made that 85 mark had friends and relatives already in the department. You see Im not black. Im Scots Irish, and my fathers family is from Illinois. And its no secret there that you do better in the police and fire departments if you are Irish and have relatives inside.


I also brought up facts that blacks were cheating as well. Does that mean that there is cheating? Yes. Does that mean that the tests are biased towards a certain colour? I don't know.

Whether nepotism is rampant in Chicago or not is beside the point. Cheating occured on both counts. It still doesn't change the fact that affirmative action is garbage in lifesaving professions. If they wanted to make it more fair, they could certainly have a third party administer and grade the tests. No names on the tests, just an id code. I think that would settle the matter to everyones satisfaction. As far as it being a good possibility, well that is your opinion and you are more than welcome to it. My mind won't be changed until you give me actual facts instead of your thoughts.

Edit: I would still take the A student over the B or C student...as I am sure most reputable companies would.
edit on 14-5-2011 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 

I will tell you how they do. Having spent 20 years on the job I can testify to this being a failed process. Being on the job and being successful are two different realities all together.There are those who take it because its a paycheck every two weeks, health insurance and usually a more than decent retirement package. Then there are those who come in who "want to live the dream" where they cant wait to get to work every shift. The ones who get in who, because of the above reasons being stated on test scores usually dont do so well career wise. We are often tested, the job is more medically inclined now , paramedic, emt, hazmat tech. If you dont do well on the entrance test, how are you going to do throughout your career. Promotional exams go the same way. Now you have someone who scores down the line,but because of the above mentioned are promoted to a higher rank. So now people promoted are in charge of an engine or ladder company and not having the brightest , best at the position shows.The crews know it , they suffer and so does the community.



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 09:52 AM
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idc what skin color you are you can be black/white/purple when im in danger i just want them to save me



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by 4TRUCK
 


And I personally have never worked in a fire or police department, but I HAVE worked for a major contractor to the DoE, and I am well aware that nepotism is a FACT on jobs with good security, pay, etc. How nepotism works varies depending on how the system works, (do you have to test to move up, or is it more subjective) but people end up in higher paying positions than they merit all the time because of who they know.

And I also am well aware that "types" of people (including poorly connected whites) get locked out of jobs because they dont happen to have friends higher up. And in todays political climate, it always is officially because of their qualifications.

Not everything on the planet can be reduced to racism. But sometimes, its a factor, and its silly to pretend it isnt. Whites are not the only people on the planet or even in the country who are racist, by far. There are lots of black racists. (And other types) But to me, in this case, it looks highly possible that a combination of racism and nepotism could be responsible for the way those entrance exams sorted out. Especially considering the things we CAN know about racism and cheating in that organization. Clearly they have a climate that condones both.



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 10:31 AM
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This whole scenerio reminds me of the scene from the movie "American History X".

Where Derek Is talking to his father at the Dinner table about affirmative action and how his life is now in the hands of someone less qualified than the other guy who scored higher on the test, who only got the job because he was black, not because he was the right man for the job.

"You do you best, you get the job".

But then the scene takes a tragic Hollywood turn into the racial aspect of N this N that which totally blew the entire point. But, thats another story.

It was just really eeerie to me how similar the two were is all.

Too many handouts just to get handouts these days.
If you dont study, you dont pass.
If you dont work, you dont get paid.
If you dont go out, you wont get laid.



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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is this not in american history x? sounds like just complete b.s. we have a black president now and still there is this reverse racism?



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 


Been going on for decades. Here is a listing of the largest racial descrimination suits over the last decade or so totalling @$830M. The largest suit is against Coke for $192M

www.mountaintopinstitute.org...

These only indicate those suits actually reported to the EEOC because they are settled without going to court. While those suits are without question on the small side, to the tune of a few million, there are thousands of them.

Its a business and when you consider these lawyers in many cases take 30% of the awards, winning a large case is quite a payday



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by DuceizBack


I don't agree with affirmative action, but it's definitely needed.
So many closet racist in the world, that they would stop people of color from being successful because they're that hateful.


Exactly right.



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by Grumble
 


You are very fortunate to have the ability to read minds. There are undoubtably racists contained within any group. You can make assumptions about the level of it and implement public policy to correct something that may in fact not be there, or you can let society evolve.

The challenge of course is that statistical anomalies are categorized as incidents of racism. When statistical anomalies are likely simply that, an anomaly. When tests are not blind, statistical misrepresentation is assumed to be overt racism. When tests are blind and statistical under representation exists, systemic racism is assumed such that the tests are in fact designed to exclude certain people. Upon rewriting the tests to be more "race neutral" and under representation still exists, they change policy relative to job requirements.

As much as I am against it, it really would be much simpler to simply break up a given population into demographics, apportion jobs to those groups and simply place the top scoring individuals from those groups in those jobs. You have a 3% Asian population, then 3% of the jobs go to Asians. Not 2%, not 3.5%, exactly the percentage of that group within the population.

Why is it never considered the result of some nefarious scheme when the statistical anomaly is that minorities are over represented within a given group?
edit on 15-5-2011 by dolphinfan because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 15 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by dolphinfan

Why is it never considered the result of some nefarious scheme with the statistical anomaly is that minorities are over represented within a given group?


You are living in Hawaii, you should know that it is the case that the high degree of Asians, (specifically Japanese) in many sectors is indeed attributed to racism.




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