When I was a Christian I was told that God & Jesus were all-loving, all-moral, all-compassionate. "God is Good." And of course Jesus loves children; I'm seen many classic lithographs of Jesus embracing children, angels helping little kids cross the street, etc.

So what is the explanation for why so many children suffer horribly & die hidious deaths? Like the children who died in that fire in Paraguay, for instance. When the last thing an innocent child experiences in this world is the sensation of being burned alive, starving to death, or being murdered after getting raped by some fiend...where is God through all this? Where is Jesus? They're omnipotent, no? The common answer I get is "that's just God's way...it's mysterious & we cannot judge." So I guess that means God/Jesus does stand by and lets it happen, answering the screams of an innocent with "this is just my way." How could a Being with unlimited powers & unlimited compassion not be roused to do something?

So where does that leave the Judeo-Christian God's claim to being the rightful arbiter of all that is just? Is it a "do as I tell you, not as I do" sort of deal?

I want an answer as to why the innocents suffer. New Agers say they suffer because they "chose" to suffer before they incarnated so they would learn certain lessons & balance karma. This too is a cop-out, as much so as the "mysterious ways" explanation.

My personal belief? I have no doubt that there is an intelligent creator of the universe. I have no doubt that this Creator has unlimited power & "mysterious ways". But I stop at this Being having qualities such as unlimited compassion & morality. I don't think this Being has morality in the way that we understand it. Amoral is probably more like it. Upholding certain morals is totally our creation & responsibility.

Man rejected God and sin entered the world and universe. It touches everything and distorts it and corrupts it. Tornadoes, hurricanes, diseases, etc... are part of the result of sin. We are experiencing what a world filled with sin is like. I know this isn't a perfect answer. Someday God's patience will come to an end and sin will be dealt with in it's entirety. Think about all the things God has prevented, though we won't know specifically what they are until He returns. Prayer is a preventative in the present.

Well let’s bring the subject of innocent by Christian beliefs, remember that any child born bears the original sin so in the church eyes is not such thing as an innocent child and if you don't get baptize you will go to hell.

I don't thing that is a God out there that does not care for his children or that he has forgotten his people, but rather I blame us simple us humanity for turning our heads to the suffering of others. The leaders of nations made of humans are the ones that punish their people.

We are though in the Christian religion that if you follow God will, God will protect you and your family but when a tragedy comes around and take away a love one we scream as why then our religious believes tells us that is God will and we are suppose to accepted or to feel guilty for not believing.

I see this as a human problem and whatever it happens is the doings of us humans and the suffering of children and people should be blame on leaders of this world. We tend to misinterpret God and what God really means.

I don't know where you heard that if a child is not babtized he will go to hell, but that is incorrect. Now for the question. You are assuming that they felt that pain, maybe God took them before that fire. But lets assume they did feel the pain, pain is a small thing in a big afterlife. thats a couple minutes of pain, to eternity, through my viewpoint. Its so small in the gand picture that it doesn't matter, I know that sounds cruel, but think of it this way, they are gone, never to feel pain again, I am sure if you live to 60 years of age you will have accumilated more pain your 60 years then children in their short life.

Originally posted by infovacume
But lets assume they did feel the pain, pain is a small thing in a big afterlife. thats a couple minutes of pain, to eternity, through my viewpoint. Its so small in the gand picture that it doesn't matter, I know that sounds cruel, but think of it this way, they are gone, never to feel pain again, I am sure if you live to 60 years of age you will have accumilated more pain your 60 years then children in their short life.

If this is the case, why should we concern ourselves with allievating suffering in this world? In this viewpoint, abortion is actually a viable solution because instead of an unwanted child living in misery we have a quick tiny death in the womb.

Personally, I think every moment is an eternity onto itself. An intense moment of fear, agony, & pain is blazed onto the Universal Consciousness. This is why we have to allievate suffering. We have to be responsible for these things because God isn't, not in the hunky-dory moral way we think.

Ultimately, what is the rationale/excuse of extreme human suffering, what philosophy or theological belief can we lean on so we don't have to face these ugly facts? There aren't any excuses. I can say "this horrible thing happened for a reason, 911 brought us closer together as a nation & isn't that wonderful?" -- but I make up a reason so I can go on with the day-to-day. I fear this is what religion was invented for.

infovacume,

The idea meant by the expression Original sin is that all humans are born sinners. There is no such things as an innocent little baby. From conception, each of us merits the wrath and judgment of God (Psalm51:5) Due to original sin, I am bent to hell whether I have personally committed a sin or not.

Original guilt, after all, is the whole point of this biblical teaching.

This is from page 135, of the book The agony of Deceit by Michael Horton an Episcopal priest.

The Catholic church in particular, steeped in the theology of sinful babies, convinces the devout that any child not baptized will be plunged into hell with the rest of the damned, even if the child dies at birth.

That is were my previous post came from.

god is moral and imoral cause god is everything. good & evil, right & wrong, love & hate, its all part of the same universal whole. we just put labels on different parts of it. as far as why we suffer, well there can be no happiness without suffering and vice versa.

Originally posted by Cassie Clay
I want an answer as to why the innocents suffer. New Agers say they suffer because they "chose" to suffer before they incarnated so they would learn certain lessons & balance karma. This too is a cop-out, as much so as the "mysterious ways" explanation.

I also, would like an answer to your question but as far as I know, "New Agers" don't necessarily associate this with Karma, as it is generally linked with Hinduism and Buddhism. But I get your point.

I take a realistic approach and believe that sometimes bad things happen to good people, because seeking justice or accountability from an omnipotent entity is like screaming at the wind.

I agree with you that upholding certain morals is both our creation and responsibility; however, I question the motives of those who define the morals we are to adhere to.

Peace,
BG

Originally posted by dbrandt
Man rejected God and sin entered the world and universe. It touches everything and distorts it and corrupts it. Tornadoes, hurricanes, diseases, etc... are part of the result of sin. We are experiencing what a world filled with sin is like. I know this isn't a perfect answer. Someday God's patience will come to an end and sin will be dealt with in it's entirety. Think about all the things God has prevented, though we won't know specifically what they are until He returns. Prayer is a preventative in the present.

Well isn't that wonderful? He just lets us here to die while we adore him and build churches in his honor. I wouldn't say that God has infinite mercy.

Originally posted by maynardsthirdeye

Well isn't that wonderful? He just lets us here to die while we adore him and build churches in his honor. I wouldn't say that God has infinite mercy.

You don't have to die, God provided the escape.

No, he hasn't. You said that the terrible things that happen in this world are the result of sin. Well, what does that mean? Only good Christians will be able to escape horrible things happening to them? You know that isn't true.

No, he hasn't. You said that the terrible things that happen in this world are the result of sin. Well, what does that mean? Only good Christians will be able to escape horrible things happening to them? You know that isn't true.

Not exactly. God's way out is accepting Jesus Christ as Lord. This is the only escape.
Just because you become a Christian does not mean you escape horrible things. You reap what you sow. You commit a crime, then get saved, that doesnt mean you dont have to be punished. You still have to do the time.

Here's a personal one for myself. I have been saved since I was 13. I taught sunday school kids, youthgroup meetings and a bunch of other stuff. I turned my back on God for a while and was miserable. I started to try to get right with him in 98, an he welcomed me back with open arms. Things started going well. I landed a great job,was able to pay down $4,000 on bills, and buy a house by sept of 98. June of 2000, I had a accadent(sp).I messed my shoulder up in a fall, and went on workers comp. I just had my 5th surgery on it may. I lost my job, and will never be able to drive truck, or do hard physical labor again. Dr's say they may have to fuse my left shoulder,and i will lose all movement in it.
Sould I be upset?mad at God? I mean here I am trying to be a "good christian" and he let this happen to my family.For my family this is awful we may lose everything we have.I know people think I should be mad,bitter,and frantic.

I'm not. I have learned to make due with what i have, and am greatfull that I had 30 good years with it. If anything this has brought my family closer to God. We have to rely on Him for everything,and he has not failed us. We have never had a bill paid late,or gone hungry.We never told anybody when food or money was not there, but God knew and provided. We would come home and find a envolope with money, or grocerys on the porch. Again we told no one but God. Not her family, not mine we just prayed.

I know I rambled a little and probably got off track, but I wanted to share, and also show that bad things can happen to Christians also.

Originally posted by gfs4731

No, he hasn't. You said that the terrible things that happen in this world are the result of sin. Well, what does that mean? Only good Christians will be able to escape horrible things happening to them? You know that isn't true.

We have to rely on Him for everything,and he has not failed us. We have never had a bill paid late,or gone hungry.

But millions of people do. And what does God do?

I don't understand why you pray to a man that causes the world unending suffering. Instead of giving you food, why doesn't God give you a job?

About 2 months ago a man from my church got testicular cancer, about 1 month ago someone from my church was injured in a boating accident and right now is paralyzed from the chest down and with little movement from the neck down and on this last Saturday night a youth from my church, 16 or 17 yrs old was killed in an auto accident. Christians don't escape everything that is harmful or deadly. But we will escape eternal death because we have accepted Christ. God has a plan for all the stuff we go through. It's to draw us nearer to Him and increase our knowledge and faith in Him. We WILL NOT have all of our why questions answered this side of eternity. That is simply something that you have to accept, period.
But in eternity we will live in a environment free of sin. Remember eternity is forever.


If I made a million dollars a year I would never need to borrow from a bank. I could get whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. Not everything I could do with that money would be good for me though.

It's the same with God. If things are in A+ shape all the time we tend not to seek the Lord as much as when we are in need. God allows adversity to bring us closer to Him in a relationship sense but also to bring us closer to Him in a "likeness" sense. Adversity shows us our weaknesses and faults and areas where we sin. Gold and silver is smelted to bring impurities to the surface so they can be removed. After they are removed the metal that is left increases in value and is more pure. It's the same with a christian, we are being refined and prepared for eternity. Our salvation has nothing to do with the trouble(although trouble can bring someone to Christ for the first time for salvation) we undergo but it refines us. Is it easy to go through the "fire"? No, not at all, but as a christian we know that all things work together for good. Christians suffer just as much, maybe in some instances more than others, but we know that through it all God is working out something for our benefit.

The suffering in the world comes about through 1.sin and 2.our wrong choices. Ex. that nightclub fire in I think in New Jersey a couple of years ago. It was caused because fireworks were used in a building that shouldn't have had them used in. Extremely flammable material was part of the construction and I think even some of the exit doors were locked. Some people were also intoxicated to certain degrees slowing reaction times and altering perceptions. The guy who owned the nightclub needed to get rid of the flammable material inside, costly probably, but it would have saved lives. He thought of money before others. The band who used the fireworks maybe shouldn't have used them. Fire + wood= burning, not hard to figure out. They use them for the sake of making their show more attractive. Alcohol deadens our senses and just like nonmedicinal drugs alters our view of things and is simply not needed anytime. If people would think of others before themselves alot of things could be prevented.

Some things can't though, like tornadoes hurricanes etc., creation is in a state of decay because of sin. But prayer can and has changed the direction of hurricanes and prevented other disasters. Who knows, if christians prayed more, what God would avert for us.

[Edited on 9-8-2004 by dbrandt]

What is the difference between Gods morality and mans morality. Mans morality is about money and greed. Gods morality is about souls.

A drug ridden woman gives birth to a child that is addicted to crack. Some would say that this is unfair and no loving God would let this happen. But, you fail to realize that the most precious gift that God could give this woman is the gift of guilt. Okay, the baby will struggle and most likely die, but its future is already set. Gods mercy and Yah Shua's love will always take care of the children. As for the mother, she now has the oppurtunit to awaken from her drug induced trance and through the guilt of murdering a child, find forgivness through Yah Shua. We as a people are confused on what evil is. Our morality says that if we don't like it, it must be evil, but it is better to judge by the outcome rather than the act.
A teenager is killed by a drunk driver. This is an oppurtunity for the drunk driver to turn away from his satanic life. The teenager by dying has helped with Gods work to do this. The teenagers family will be tested to understand the purpose of this, and some will understand and some will not. That will start the whole process over. Cause and Effect.

There is a country song about wooden crosses. A preacher, a farmer, a school teacher and a hooker are in an accident. Who survived? The hooker. And in the end it was the hookers son, who had become a minister, that was reciting this story.
If you look at life through our morality and try to judge God, you will fail to see the big picture. God is in the business of teaching us how to live inspite of the sin that we brought upon ourselves. This is the catch 22 that the devil hates. God always has the upper hand, and will make good of everything bad that happens.

The biggest tragedy right now is Sudan. Try and think for a while. What will become of those starving christians that are being killed. How has this affected the people of the world? How has this affected the people of God?

[Edited on 9-8-2004 by popeye0314]

Originally posted by popeye0314

If you look at life through our morality and try to judge God, you will fail to see the big picture. God is in the business of teaching us how to live inspite of the sin that we brought upon ourselves. This is the catch 22 that the devil hates. God always has the upper hand, and will make good of everything bad that happens.



[Edited on 9-8-2004 by popeye0314]

You can't judge God? Why? If you cannot judge, then you cannot recognize. Supposedly, God gives us one set of rules while Satan gives us another. If we don't have the ability to make moral judgements on our own, we can't recognize that God is "good" or Satan is "evil." Saying "love thy neighbor" is the same as saying "cheat thy neighbor" to us. The fact that we know the difference between good and bad shows that we can make our own moral judgements inside of us.



[Edited on 9-8-2004 by maynardsthirdeye]

You tell your child that he/she is not to open the door to strangers, but your child faced with the situation decides that he/she knows enough to judge the person at the door, and deem it safe to open the door.

You can judge God, Satan did and I suppose many others. What I said was that if you do, you will fail to see the big picture. How do you judge judge anything? You have to have all the facts and know why things happen the way that they do. Who knows enough to be the judge.

This is where faith is such a perfect gift to those of us who don't have all the answers. We know the father has a plan, and that all things will be as his plan is. Perfection is Gods way, the sin and hardships that we brought on ourselves is our way.
So judge if you like. That is your gift of free will, but how is it that you have this knowledge to judge. By what authority have any of us been granted the knowledge to understand? There is one who can create and destroy. This is who makes the rules, it is us that choose to cheat. I will choose faith in the one. Maybe you think you can do better than he that is perfection. Satan will lose and in the end he will beg for his right to exist.

You have already judged God. You have decided that he is good and perfect. You made a moral judgement within yourself. You didn't need God to tell you what was right and what was wrong.

Ok God puts two people who have no concept of sin, something HE created by the way, into a garden where they cannot get into the cookie jar, whoops I mean the tree, of good and evil that he placed there knowing that they would get into it in the first place. He knows the future remember.

Then he allows the devil, or serpant, or snake with legs that he created just for this purpose, remember he knows the future, to "tempt" them into getting into the cookie jar.

Now once these two naive childlike creatures fall into this elaborate trap that HE set up to begin with KNOWING what would happen BEFORE he even created the universe, He jumps out from behind a bush and yells AAAAAHHHHHAAAAA I have caught you you sinful creatures!!!!!! You have disapointed me. (How could they have done this not only did he KNOW what was going to happen, he set it up FOR this outcome.) Now not only am I gonna punish you I am gonna punish your children till the end of time. I am gonna make a place to torture you for eternity,HAHAHAHAHAHA

Sounds like a great guy

There is a difference between free will and pre-destination. You will hear many arguments both ways, but that is for the simple reason that we just don't have the wisdom or knowledge to understand.

God allows us free will. We make our own choices. He has already begun his work and he has already seen the outcome. The Alpha and the Omega. Yes, he knows what you will choose as he knows your heart, but you are the one that makes the choice.

You need to understand the whole story if you want to understand the sin. Satan is an angel who refused to worship the image of God which was Adam. Satan declared that he would make himself like God and rebeled against this new creation that was Adam. In order to restore things to what satan percieved as the former glory, he must destroy Adam and his generations. Knowing that only God can destroy, the task that satan embarked on was to show God how awful his creation (man) really is. The sin in the garden was the sin of lust. The tree of knowledge was satan and his offspring or seed was the pollution in the children of Adam and Eve.
This whole world is the result of the greed of one bad angel that lead to a rebellion against God. The real choice that God had to make was to either destroy what he had made or to allow this story to continue. God has made it possible for us to exist. He has also made it possible for us to find grace, and live with him for eternity. The Lord was merciful enough to send his son to this earth to be our salvation.
The Lord that we speak of has granted us life, and inspite of the sin that we commit in his house, he has chosen to be merciful. This is an awsome God.
Can't you see, it would have been easy for him to destroy us. He chose the harder path. He chose to keep us. He didn't have to.