It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Risking One's Neck for Better Grog: Mutinies Reveal Tipping Points for Collective Unrest

page: 2
13
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 15 2011 @ 01:36 PM
link   
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


You're a smart guy... I think you've just found one of the key 'statements of intent' or 'objectives' of this research.

ATS is the type of place such potential ringleaders might conceivably come to put out their feelers before the SHTF in a world like ours. And no, I don't consider myself to be such, before anyone suggests that and puts me at mortal risk!!!


Do you know of any members who've had seemingly uncharacteristic breakdowns, or - significantly changed their posting styles/ loyalties and topics of interest?

I personally believe that several members have probably been 'replaced' by stooges in recent years. I could name a couple, but won't for fear of t's and c's (and the MIBs)
edit on 15-5-2011 by FlyInTheOintment because: spelling




posted on May, 15 2011 @ 01:45 PM
link   
Personally I have always found topics like this deeply interesting..
thanks for sharing..

It is amazing to see the impact mutinies have... Like the one at Invergordon in 1931 that brought Britains financial troubles to the fore which in turn caused a run on the pound that in turn forced Britain off the gold standard..

I know it is wiki.. en.wikipedia.org...

ETA: the ringleaders of that one ended up in the USSR while another commanded the British contingent of the international brigade during the Spanish Civil War..
edit on 15/5/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 06:11 AM
link   
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


Goodness, yes, I bet your upbringing with a brilliant Borderline Personality Disordered woman was quite enlightening. The wonder of the outcome there is that you eventually saw her for what she was, and learned how to recognize the same traits in others.

I know it's absolutely true that even the most skilled/experienced practitioners are capable of being manipulated by sociopaths; and I know it's far harder to see the picture when you're personally involved. You are spot on, I fully recognize that my own "need to feel needed" clouds my objectivity.

I have thought often about how my world view was shaped, and how my treatment by -- and reactions to -- others ("mean girls", backstabbers, rumor-mongers, etc) shaped my adult self. I was not emotionally abused as a youngster, my parents were not sociopaths, my brothers were/are pretty regular. We were brought up to be thoughtful, hardworking, educated, and courteous. And of course, those qualities once internalized are often projected onto others without second thought.
Shocker when you realize not everyone has them!

Yup, many, many "helping professionals" are in the field precisely because they are dragging around their own baggage, undisputed truth! And it behooves each and every one of us to engage in counseling as the client, not the therapist, to gain insight into our own "stuff."

You seem to have a very astute and systematic way of looking at others -- which, if I may say so, sounds extremely practical and detached but also a bit distrustful.

In any case, we are quite off-topic here, and I hope we can continue to discuss these things in the future -- your thoughts are quite intriguing.
edit on 16-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 06:22 AM
link   
Response to our more recent participants:
I have thought that same thing!

While at first blush it seemed Illusions and I were drifting off course, I see now that the conversation certainly does speak to the capabilities of artful persuasion and the way some persons can articulate themselves in remarkably credible ways.

It's not often that I have come across peeps like Illusions, who are at once critical and also helpful with insights and advice. Yikes. Exactly what we are discussing...

Am I being sucked in AGAIN???!!!!! Aaarrrgh!!



It seems to point to certain "charisma" that can rouse people to join up with mutineers. An individual who can say "Look how you're weak, you don't deserve this treatment but it's not your fault, and it's also your fault, so do something!"

Wow, guys/gals....
and...
I'm curious about the "replacement" posters who are here. I'm far too new a member to have noticed drastic changes in style/theme/attitude in any one member, but that is REALLY interesting to think about.

Do you suspect there are "sock uppets" here on ATS?

To what extent do you trust that posters on this board are authentic and sincere?

Do you think ATS is being screened for rabble-rousers, or even that it might be a propaganda machine itself?

Hmmmmm.....


edit on 16-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 09:50 AM
link   
reply to post by FlyInTheOintment
 


The Economist has recently been putting out feelers too, about "does inequity cause problems" in their magazine. The question is, of course, ridiculous. Of course it does. Everyone knows that. What it seems to me they are doing is looking for people to contribute ways around the problem.

From the year 2000 at a meeting of the Trilateral Commission in Tokyo.

www.iie.com...


The point is that there is a big backlash against globalization. We see it in the financial world. We certainly see it in the trading world as well. It's much more fundamental than pure economics. We know that globalization does increase income and social disparities within countries. We know that globalization does leave some countries and certainly some groups of people behind. We do know that a lot of Europeans don't want to eat genetically modified American foods and that adds to their resistance to globalization. We know that a lot Americans worry about races to the bottom--labor standards, environmental standards, and other perceived doubts about dealing with the rest of the world. We know that a lot of developing countries are raising doubts about the entire system, and such specifics as whether having agreed to the enshrinement of intellectual property rights is really in their national interest. (They would like to pull it back out of the WTO, having agreed to put it in five or six years ago.) So the list is long of the perceived intrusions of globalization into national sovereignties. There is therefore a backlash against it, which I think we have to take as an extremely serious economic, political, and social matter.


They absolutely know what they are doing, they know it will be negative for many, but they want to do it for their own sake. Its important for them that we not act against them while we still can. Once nation states and their sovereignty are effectively destroyed, it will be next to impossible to organize resistance. All they need to do is keep us still and unmoving until that goal is reached.

In the mid east, in Europe, even in the US, you see accelerated movement towards that goal. Probably because we are very close to the tipping point and resources become tighter. (jobs scarcity, crop failures, increased prices for oil, food, decreased wages especially in the first world.)

We dont have a lot of time if we want to alter the course here. They know it too, which is why some of their moves, (Libya) are so aggressive and poorly propagandized. They need to act quickly before we revolt, and that means we need to stop them before we cannot revolt.



posted on May, 16 2011 @ 10:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes

While at first blush it seemed Illusions and I were drifting off course, I see now that the conversation certainly does speak to the capabilities of artful persuasion and the way some persons can articulate themselves in remarkably credible ways.


The problem with rational articulation is that it is not a very good motivator of people. I can articulate (and lets assume I am 100% correct for the sake of argument) all day long. Reason does not motivate the majority of people. Emotion does. And while I am a skillful analyst of data, I am inept as a skillful manipulator of humans at the emotional level. Except for my uncanny ability to piss them off by bursting their fantasies about the world or themselves.


Consider this; (and I HIGHLY suggest anyone really interested in the topic of this thread read the whole article at some point is very good information)

www.adwiz.biz...


A good marketing or advertising strategy makes use of this psychological process. A good strategy must be simple, fitting easily into the mind of the prospect. It must be memorable. It must provide just enough facts to be believable. And it must strike an emotional chord to satisfy “unsane” people.

So how does this actually work in the real world?

Strategies and brand positioning are used to appeal to the emotional part of our decision-making process. Very rarely, if ever, are these designed to appeal to logic.

When Apple computer said, “Here’s to the crazy ones,” it was talking about all of us. That “think different” campaign was entirely pointed at our emotional response to being seen as leaders and innovators in a world of followers. This claim had nothing directly to do with whether the computer was better than the competition, because those arguments would have had no impact. People don’t want to hear that they made a bad choice. They want to be inspired by their association with one brand because it is cool, or thoughtful, or daring, or whatever.




Originally posted by wildtimes
It's not often that I have come across peeps like Illusions, who are at once critical and also helpful with insights and advice. Yikes. Exactly what we are discussing...

Am I being sucked in AGAIN???!!!!! Aaarrrgh!!


Not by me.




Originally posted by wildtimes
It seems to point to certain "charisma" that can rouse people to join up with mutineers. An individual who can say "Look how you're weak, you don't deserve this treatment but it's not your fault, and it's also your fault, so do something!"


Not necessarily so rational though. You need to appeal to their vanity, their self interest, emotions, etc. You for CERTAIN would not want to tell them they are weak or imply they are being tricked. I suppose a more effective message would be to say "You are the powerful ones, these people cant fool you, we know what they are doing...." or something along those lines. It has to make them feel good about themselves, and bolster whatever particular story they have about themselves as a group of individual. Like calling an act that undermines the Constitution the "Patriot Act." Who doesnt want to be a patriot? Doesnt it imply if you dont like it your arent? Flag waving is big, images of power are big. etc.


Originally posted by wildtimes
I'm curious about the "replacement" posters who are here. I'm far too new a member to have noticed drastic changes in style/theme/attitude in any one member, but that is REALLY interesting to think about.


I have not really noticed "replacement" posters. But there ARE posters here who are incredibly skillful at gaining a following, and their motives are (to me) not very good. Self aggrandizement, in short. One of them at one point did say that they had been approached by people about becoming a "shill." And they said they did not. But that person self aggrandizes often, and so I really cannot know if that were self aggrandizement or truth. I do know they are one of the most followed thread starters on ATS, and so it is plausible that someone looking to influence opinion here would approach someone just like them.

They are very able to do what I cannot, appeal to the existing beliefs and emotions of other people. Target their message for maximum popularity, rather than maximum accuracy or truth. No one has ever approached me for that purpose, nor would they. Im not popular, lol. And my only emotion stirring skill, is, as I have mentioned, to piss people off by presenting truths they may not really want to hear.


Originally posted by wildtimes
Do you suspect there are "sock uppets" here on ATS?


During political campaigns, during the BP oil spill, right after Osama, at the beginning of the Libya crisis, we always get new members who post the official line. They are bold, (unlike many new posters) sure of themselves, post short highly critical posts about any question of the official line, so yes. There are paid propagandists here. More so in critical moments in terms of opinion forming. Once the board settles into camps, they usually go away.



Originally posted by wildtimes
To what extent do you trust that posters on this board are authentic and sincere?


I look at each poster individually. Some people here have mental health issues, some people here arent very smart, but good intended, some people here are smart and good intentioned, some people here are smart and very ego centric with not so good intentions. You really have to look at each poster, and even each post, individually. Some people are so biased on one issue that while you can trust them 98% of the time, when they post on x you have to take everything with a pile of salt.

There is no easy way out. You just have to use awareness, good judgment, and critical intelligence everyday, all the time.



Originally posted by wildtimes
Do you think ATS is being screened for rabble-rousers, or even that it might be a propaganda machine itself?


ATS is very hard on certain kinds of rabble rousers. Those who rouse the rabble against ATS, the Mods, and the owners. You begin down that road, and you will end up banned. HOWEVER, I have often argued against SO, the mods, their policies, etc., and I am still here. And I certainly argue against the mainstream political line regularly. If you stick to attacking their argument, and not attacking the person or ATS the site, you can dissent as long as you are not out of line or abusive. At least thats been my experience.

My personal feeling is that ATS is NOT a propaganda machine. I believe the owners are sincere in their desire to allow differing opinions, and to deny ignorance. BUT, they also have a profit motive, which sometimes causes their behaviors and policies to conflict with those goals. And, (sorry to whomever I offend) there are some strong egos among them, and they have an aggressive authoritarian style of dealing with people who attack them directly.

However, I am convinced for myself that for the most part, ATS is what it says it is. Its just that human beings have biases, egos, other motives, and tempers, and that does sometimes end up resulting in injustice and conflicting messages.

My two cents on that.


edit on 16-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 10:21 AM
link   
And so, ATS,

What would be your PERSONAL tipping point?

What would you want to be in place before YOU would take action?

What would you be willing to OFFER a sweeping change movement?

I ask this from a sociologists' point of view. I ask this as a life-long learner and student of humanity. As a "change agent", who is keenly interested in knowing each individual's personal limits....not because I'm interested in squelching any such uprising, or beginning one (I'm no politician - I'm a writer and sociologist) just to get some further insight into the individual consciousnesses of the collective ...

any more takers??



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 10:41 AM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes
 


I have a keen interest in history and feel my personal tipping point would most likely follow the ones that set my region of England into open rebellion c1830s.

Where out goings far exceeded income due to massive under employment.. If we in the West are at risk of something it would IMHO be under employment.. or as I fondly call it.. waterboarding for the masses.. not quite drowning but feeling as tho you are...

The long term stress caused by massive under employment led to a leaderless revolt.. (fictional leaders make things a lot easier when you are faced with an oppressive system.. a few English examples can be found in Southern England in the persona of Captain Swing and in Northern England in the persona of King Ludd)

Personally I feel we are at a similar tipping point and are about to move from this incarnation of society to the next.. but we are yet to the tipping point when people really feel they are drowning.. but given inflation and austerity measures I don't feel that point is far away.

Just my thoughts on this topic
hope you find them interesting..
edit on 17/5/11 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 10:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes
And so, ATS,

What would be your PERSONAL tipping point?


The tipping point for me is always the same. Its the moment I can discern with clarity that someone is intent on exploiting the weak, the powerless. At that moment, I begin to act against them, even if initially it is only to point out to others what they are doing.


Originally posted by wildtimes
What would you want to be in place before YOU would take action?


I think the above answers this as well.


Originally posted by wildtimes
What would you be willing to OFFER a sweeping change movement?


This totally depends on the moment, the type of sweeping change, and whats needed. My "skill" is strategy and analysis. So that, for sure. But I am well qualified to shovel poo, sweep floors, basically, anything that needs to be done. Im not proud. Or afraid to get my hands dirty.



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:28 AM
link   
THanks for the sincere answers!

My tipping point would be if I were forced out of my home by the financial forces that extend credit --

I have worked honestly for nearly 4 decades, and I have acquired my humble peaceful little collection of roof/clothing/books/garden and peace of mind through hard work, at low levels.

If, due to the economic strains of the USA's current status quo, someone were to suddenly "call in" my notes, and tell me they were seizing everything I own and sending me packing with a stick and a pillowcase full of whatever I could stuff in it...

that would be my tipping point. Then I would say, um, no, beg to differ. I am not surrendering everything in the name of ink on paper. I will challenge this...

What would I want in place? Well, I've looked into joining a convent, to be honest, though I have no allegiance to any religion ... as long as I knew there was somewhere I could go with persons who cared about my welfare and who would welcome me as part of the group, I would be ready to act.

And what do I have to offer? Like IAG, I can mop floors, do dishes, cook, clean, take care of youngsters, do accounting, build shelters, forage for food, counsel those in despair, contribute to planning and help to keep morale up among the disheartened. What I don't have to offer is MONEY.

Oh, and I can speak more than English. And I know how to play several musical instruments, and enjoy reading out loud, and have lots of books on philosophy as well as simple entertainment and science and history and a professional library about affecting change in one's microsphere....

And I'm nice, and don't each much, and take up very little space.



EDIT!!
very important: I'm pretty good at making people around me LAUGH!

edit on 17-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:39 AM
link   
reply to post by thoughtsfull
 


I think you are spot on - massive under employment. It does feel like we are about to drown, the life-raft is leaking.

Yes, I know how to swim, but I'm not bionic!! I can think of other examples from history in the UK, too...William Wallace pops to mind, Rob Roy, though not leaderless rebellions, I'd have paid attention to them (and maybe I did - I come from Anglo and Saxon stock, as well as Scandinavian - and do believe in reincarnation).....

Oh, and I left out of the above, I have a sailboat! (It's not big, but it has sleeping quarters, galley, and needs TLC, but it's mine)...
In case another flood or something....



posted on May, 17 2011 @ 11:44 AM
link   
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 


I think by now you have a fairly good idea of how, between the two of us, we might be able to come up with a balanced and well-rounded approach, or at the very least, keep one another engaged in fascinating dialogue. You know I'd want to hang with ya!
Sincerely,
"grasshopper"


edit on 17-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 08:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by thoughtsfull
 


I think you are spot on - massive under employment. It does feel like we are about to drown, the life-raft is leaking.

Yes, I know how to swim, but I'm not bionic!! I can think of other examples from history in the UK, too...William Wallace pops to mind, Rob Roy, though not leaderless rebellions, I'd have paid attention to them (and maybe I did - I come from Anglo and Saxon stock, as well as Scandinavian - and do believe in reincarnation).....

Oh, and I left out of the above, I have a sailboat! (It's not big, but it has sleeping quarters, galley, and needs TLC, but it's mine)...
In case another flood or something....


I'm a project manager who specialised in fixing the leaking corporate buckets.. aside from not wanting to work with those types of people again I do not get the feeling any of the corporates that have approached with work where really serious about fixing the problems they face.. which I find rather puzzling..

But it is more than that... it seems no one government actually wants to fix the problems we face either... just print more money to buy just a bit more time..

Given we know what happens when people are peeved I find this behaviour really strange.. almost as tho they know something is going to happen or do not care if their people rebel.. I am undecided which way this will go at the moment... sadly I feel they might drag us into more conflicts to redirect the simmering anger.. which is very worrisome.

Anyway
for the boat... there is nothing like having a sail boat and being master/mistress of your own destiny.. (Growing up on the coast and a proud heritage of smuggling.. that is how I feel about boats..)



posted on May, 18 2011 @ 08:47 AM
link   



Originally posted by thoughtsfull

I'm a project manager who specialised in fixing the leaking corporate buckets.. aside from not wanting to work with those types of people again I do not get the feeling any of the corporates that have approached with work where really serious about fixing the problems they face.. which I find rather puzzling..


I think for this to make sense you have to understand that the motives of the CEO's, CFO's, and others in a position to really make changes do not always line up with the long term best interests of the corporation. And the long term profit motive of the corporation is often at odds with the motives and needs of the employees, the community, regulatory agencies, etc.

So one of the reasons it is very difficult, even if you identify and trouble shoot a problem, to get action taken on the problem is that you might not be seeing everyone individual motives clearly. You can read about this problem in one industry in the book "The Big Short," which is about the recent collapse of the financial market and how that came about. The author is very good about showing how the people in the industry had actually become incentivized to destroy their own industry. As odd as that may seem. And, he also oh so briefly goes how how that began, when the first big investment firm went corporate.

You have to pay very close attention to incentive and motive when figuring out someones actions. If someone gets a bonus based on increasing some aspect of the business, they will probably do so. Even if they have to degrade the entire quality of the business and its long term prospects to do so. Which is what tends to happen. If you make a bonus, say, for cutting costs, you may cut costs to the point where operations are on the brink of hazard every day, and eventually, that strategy will likely have a negative consequence for the business itself.


Originally posted by thoughtsfull
But it is more than that... it seems no one government actually wants to fix the problems we face either... just print more money to buy just a bit more time..


Two things. People are IN government for many reasons. Often, they are NOT the smartest guys/gals in the room. They are the same people who were very popular in highschool. Of average intelligence but very high in social skills. Because they seek power, they also tend to have big egos, and a lot of self confidence. Self confidence and an average IQ is not really a good combination. You dont always have the ability to see your own weaknesses. Those people also tend to be surrounded by people who ARE very smart, and manipulative. Who are expert and stroking egos and playing self interest. (Lobbyists, "friends" etc.)

Secondly, our entire economic system is essentially a pyramid scheme that is utterly dependent on growth and expansion. In order for the fortunes of the rich to continue to grow, everything must continue to grow. And thats a real problem in a closed system like the planet Earth. Which isnt growing. This whole system is bound to collapse at some point because reality, (finite resources) and theory, (grow grow grow) are fundamentally incompatible. In this case, its important to remember that people tend to believe what they WANT to be true. (My wife/husband isnt cheating on me, Im still hot despite my comb over and paunch, my kids are misunderstood geniuses despite their mouth breathing and crappy grades,) People are very able to overlook a lot of fact in order to maintain a world view they want or need to believe is true.

One of humanities biggest problems is just our own nature. And the fact that the people running things tend to be absolutely inappropriate for the job in that they are not terribly bright, they have strong personal needs, (wealth power ego) and no one has any real personal incentive to change things before the whole mess collapses.

Not to be rude, but notice that the tipping point for many here is "when things get so awful for me I cant ignore it." Its human nature, Im not bashing anyone. But strategically, thats not the most efficient time to act. The best time to act in terms of good outcome for the most people is before that. But because of human nature, that really will be the tipping point, and at that point, a lot of people are going to have extremely negative consequences regardless who does what.

edit on 18-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:22 AM
link   
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander
 



And the fact that the people running things tend to be absolutely inappropriate for the job in that they are not terribly bright, they have strong personal needs, (wealth power ego) and no one has any real personal incentive to change things before the whole mess collapses.


Because by the time it collapses, they will be all set, it seems. Oh, how I love your remark that "the popular in high school" are those in power. They had power then, too. It's all they've known.

Now, we lot in this thread have all spoken about how we left the business world for reasons of extreme discomfort and shock at the self-serving actions of those who live in that great, muddy pond. I feel that having walked away is in some degree indicative of a "tipping point" having been reached. All of us stepped into that world, tolerated it as long as we could, and then politely (or not) bowed out. It was too much, from an ethical and philosophical view. And I feel that by virtue of our tiny little conversation here, we are acting to change things.

A good counselor's job is to "plant the seed" in the psyche of the client. One cannot force action or change, that has to come from within. Hopefully it will find fertile soil, if not sooner, then later. Like the ancient Egyptian wheat kernels that were buried for eons, and then found soil, and grew.

There is also the "ripple effect", of course. So we dragged our respective carcasses out of that poison pond, and from the banks we watch what is still visible in all the murk, and drop little pebbles onto the surface. That changes the pond, whether noticeable to its inhabitants or not.

I find it interesting to think, then, of what my original post asked: "What would be your tipping point?" I was writing in terms of mutiny at that point. Some mutinees (of those studied amont seamen) were carried out peaceably, i.e. the captain stepped aside. Others were a bit more dramatic: put the cap'n and his supporters on a small boat and let them float away to their own fates. Still others of course were brutal and violent.

It occurs to me now that the character of the challenged leader, which has hypothetically already proven itself as less-than-concerned with the dignity and wellbeing of each crew member, will dictate the nature of the coups. The more violent and delusional the captain is, the more selfish and exploitative and unconcerned with the crew on whom he/she depends, then the more chaotic the uprising and overthrow.

And since people will tolerate quite a lot, little by little (as has been established earlier), is it just finesse that enables this power to go unchallenged?

If the crew gets plenty of lip service at the right moments in the right amounts, will they calm down once gain?

When does that stop working??

And what does it look like?



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 06:29 AM
link   
Did anyone else watch the POTUS speech yesterday? He himself discussed "tipping points", but was speaking about the so-called Arab Spring. And he said that he expected Israel to step up to the plate rather than continuing with the isolationist route...

He also said he was 'Forgiving the $1bn dollar debt' of Egypt!!

At which point I said out loud, "Hey, wait a minute! Un momento, por fa! Ein minuten, bitte!"

WTH??!! Is he thinking that the countries to whom the US is indebted will be "Reciprocally Altruistic" and give the US a break?o

Or is it a neat little shuffle-step-tap into the "global economy" as it is planned to become?

Oh, yeah, dollars. We owe dollars. But dollars don't matter anymore, right? We cool? Awesome. Carry on!
edit on 20-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

edit on 20-5-2011 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 09:11 AM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes

He also said he was 'Forgiving the $1bn dollar debt' of Egypt!!

At which point I said out loud, "Hey, wait a minute! Un momento, por fa! Ein minuten, bitte!"

WTH??!! Is he thinking that the countries to whom the US is indebted will be "Reciprocally Altruistic" and give the US a break?


No, he isnt hoping that Egypt will be reciprocally altruistic, because he isnt being altruistic. Aid packages are in essence "bribes." We give you x amount of money, and you allow the business interests we favor into your country to exploit your people. It isnt for the sake of Americans, the people, because often they do not gain economic benefit from these deals, they do not get the majority of the jobs created by these deals overseas. They used to, but now most of these jobs go to foreign nationals who will work cheaper. (I worked over seas for 8 years and so I was aware of the chatter in the ex-pat community after the Gulf war, when the jobs to rebuild infrastructure, etc., stopped being given to Americans and those companies instead began to hire third country nationals to do the work very cheaply)

So Americans pay for the military to get in and unseat regimes who will not play ball with "friendly" (but not always American) economic interests, and they also pay for the "aid" packages that are bribes ensuring the cooperation of the new regimes, but they really do not gain from the whole thing. Nor do the people of the country being exploited in that way. The people in those countries have a compromised government acting in the interest of business interests, not in the interest of the people of that country, and the natural resources of that country are being exploited at fire sale prices, rather than at market price.



Originally posted by wildtimes
Or is it a neat little shuffle-step-tap into the "global economy" as it is planned to become?


That is part of the goal. If you can eliminate all governments that are acting on the interests of their "people" (labor) and also ensuring those people gain the economic benefit of the resources of the nation, you can exploit all peoples and their resources more easily, at lower cost to you, and hence make more money doing so.

And as an aside regarding tipping points, notice how in the mid east we have been toppling nations one by one who are not playing economic ball with us. Part of the divide and conquer scheme is already set up to deal with tipping points.

You dont go after everyone you want out of the equation all at once. If you do, they MIGHT recognize their common enemy in you and band together to stop you. No, you first divide them, either yourself, with propaganda, or along natural fault lines. And you poke, poke, poke, at those lines until there is a real gulf between the groups. Then, you one by one, begin to eliminate them.

Most people have as a requirement for reaching the tipping point "when x happens to me or mine." The problem with that as a strategy is summed up nicely here.

en.wikipedia.org...


First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

edit on 20-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 09:30 AM
link   
Good grief.
And by what authority did he decide this?

Was Bernanke consulted? The GAO? How can he just stand up and say "I forgive your debt". It isn't HIS billion dollars, it's ALL OF OURS, and we're already bankrupt! Broke! Busted! Defaulting!

Shouldn't there have been a * MEET'N' *, for crying out loud?? Criminittly.

Oh well, the world ends tonight anyway....heh heh...or maybe Family Radio will give all their money to the national debt. Yeah, right.



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 09:49 AM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes

It occurs to me now that the character of the challenged leader, which has hypothetically already proven itself as less-than-concerned with the dignity and wellbeing of each crew member, will dictate the nature of the coups. The more violent and delusional the captain is, the more selfish and exploitative and unconcerned with the crew on whom he/she depends, then the more chaotic the uprising and overthrow.

And since people will tolerate quite a lot, little by little (as has been established earlier), is it just finesse that enables this power to go unchallenged?


It has much less to do with the character of the person in charge than it does their self control, and finesse to use your word. So in a sense delusional ones may well get themselves in trouble faster, as may stupid ones, but the level of violence is really not a factor as much as HOW that violence is applied. See the post above for dividing and conquering. You can get portions of your crew to cheer for insane levels of violence against other portions of your crew if you are clever enough at deflecting the blame from you to them. For instance, if you can make your sailors believe that there suffering is the result of other sailors, and not you, the captain, you have it made.

You can do whatever you want to the scapegoated sailors, and only earn yourself more goodwill from the men you are oppressing. You just have to ensure you set it up first. You cannot just randomly pick someone from the group and abuse them. You have to lay the ground work that the person you are targeting is a danger to the whole group, is bringing misery down upon them all, and that they and only they are responsible for all the bad going on. And then when they are gone, you begin again. With another person or group. In the US, we have a list of people the economic gangsters want out. Iran, N. Korea, Venezuela, etc. They are going after all of them at some point, and they have already implicated them as "the axis of evil" which one gets the propaganda, or increased new coverage only indicates which one they think they might have a good chance of taking down next. Sometimes, other opportunities arise and they are distracted from an old target by a limping gazelle. You always take your surest bet first.



Originally posted by wildtimes
If the crew gets plenty of lip service at the right moments in the right amounts, will they calm down once gain?

When does that stop working??

And what does it look like?


It can work all the way down to the last man. As long as the leadership chooses their targets strategically. You get rid of the most charismatic first, followed by the intellects and altruists. Those most likely to incite the mob against you. You slowly winnow down the group to the most selfish, least likely to act on behalf of others or take on personal risk by cooperating with others, and you play their self interest. Just promise them more if they help you with this "problem" or that one. By the time these most selfish see the writing on the wall, its too late. They have helped eliminate anyone who could or would help them.




edit on 20-5-2011 by Illusionsaregrander because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 20 2011 @ 10:08 AM
link   
reply to post by wildtimes
 





I would like ATS members to think about and contribute their thoughts - what would it take for YOU to say "Enough" "I've had it", and start organizing a grassroots rebeliion...


I am WELL past that point and have been for over five years.

What did it take???

I am a well educated "Law abiding" citizen with nothing worse than a few very old traffic tickets. What it took was a $#@#%! government official appearing on my door step about once a month.

So we gave up on the "People's Republic of Taxachusetts" and moved south. AGAIN we had a FEDERAL AGENT show up on our door step!


Shortly there after agents of the World Trade Organization attempted to shove "Traceability" aka the National Animal Idenification System (NAIS) and Premises ID down our throats.

Once I and many other farmers started researching we also found the "Federal Reserve Con Job" and the "Global Warming HOAX"

It is tough to go back to sleep once your eyes are open. It is even tough to allow some multibillionaire to bilk you of your hard earned wealth all the time telling you it is "in your best interests"


...Consider this quote from George Bernard Shaw, one of the founders of the Fabian Society:


"Under Socialism, you would not be allowed to be poor. You would be forcibly fed, clothed, lodged, taught, and employed whether you liked it or not. If it were discovered that you had not the character and industry enough to be worth all this trouble, you might possibly be executed in a kindly manner; but whilst you were permitted to live, you would have to live well."

angam.blogspot.com...




Sounds like slavery to me!



Fabian Society:
www.modernhistoryproject.org...

www.abeldanger.net...

www.sodahead.com...

watch.pair.com... (note I am not a Christian but this research seems decent)




top topics



 
13
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join