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Believers: Why is Atheism Irrational?

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posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 09:09 AM
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They make books with definitions in called dictionaries. Depending on which book you are reading the definition will be different. No definition is definite.

Definitions do not define, just confuse. Which one is right?

It has to be worked out to be known.
What is it that can know, that does know?

Belief is something believed. It is hidden in the word. Something heard, something read that is taken as truth.
Humans want to believe. But believing is dangerous.

Faith is not believing. It is beyond belief, it is known.
Faith is not believing what is secondhand.
Faith is firsthand.
Faith in self.
Not belief in others on how it is, no presription.
Truth has a fragrance to it.

edit on 5-6-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



Faith is not believing. It is beyond belief, it is known.


Not in regards to the cause or nature of the universe.

Faith in regards to supernatural belief is blind belief, it's speculation, it's having answers before doing the working out, it's arriving at a conclusion before having evidence.

People were still preaching this nonsense before we knew of Gallaxies, before we constructed Big Bang theory, before they knew of bacteria and microbes. They thought volcanoes were punishment from a God. It was their "FAITH" that thoght it was punishment from a God.

I've defined faith. And in regards to unfalsifiable theories, it's BLIND FAITH.

There are not different definitions in different dictionaries, FAITH has many meanings like "NET" can be related to finance, or fishing. or that "SET" can be related to cement or the Sun.
edit on 5/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 09:38 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


The word belief is the one that should be examined because blind belief is blind.
Someone tells you a story about a black hole or the big bang and it is believed.
The truth, the truth, is no one knows. We can speculate, the speculation starts with - it had to start, it had to have a begining. Is that true? Does everything have a begining? No.
When does now begin and when does now end?

I know i am here.
This is all that is needed.
Faith.

The difference is listening to 'out there' or listening to that truth monitor 'inside'.
edit on 5-6-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



The word belief is the one that should be examined because blind belief is blind.
Someone tells you a story about a black hole or the big bang and it is believed.


But we do have spectrometers and deep field telescopes in order to assist us with our predictions and mathematics. They didn't just assume black holes existed without carrying out any maths.

It's as if you don't understand the difference between scientific theory and religious "FAITH".


he truth, the truth, is no one knows. We can speculate, the speculation starts with - it had to start, it had to have a begining. Is that true? Does everything have a begining? No.
When does now begin and when does now end?


ABSOLUTELY AGREE - We all don't know, we can speculate, we can look at evidence, we can look at nature and speculate but really, we DON'T KNOW. Even causation is an assumption, and it leads to an infinite regress, We don't know, we're all as naive as each other.

God is a semantical game where you are trying to work out whether it's Pantheistic, Theistic or Deistic deity. It's not like black holes, God hasn't been observed or calculated using raw data, it's just a word game we use to describe the unknown, or what possibily might be beyond this realm.


I know i am here.


So it's not a lie? You like to suddenly turn the tables to suite your argumentitive needs.

Blind Faith, again, applies to a notion whereby you can known more than the rest of your species if you simply claim to have answers before doing research or asking questions.
edit on 5/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


You wrote:

["The word belief is the one that should be examined because blind belief is blind."]

That sounds logical, but the problem is, that you're saying blind = blind. Not anything about belief.

Quote: ["Someone tells you a story about a black hole or the big bang and it is believed."]

It has formerly been recommended, that you get a basic knowledge of how science functions, before you comment on it.

Quote: ["The truth, the truth, is no one knows."]

As when you said this last time....partial truths are very useful. Shall we take the whole chain of arguments again or will you just go back on the thread and look at it.

Quote: ["We can speculate, the speculation starts with - it had to start, it had to have a begining. Is that true?"]

It's a functional method in cosmic situations, where causality is valid.

Quote: ["Does everything have a begining? No. When does now begin and when does now end?"]

An interesting question, which Aware took up earlier. I doubt. if you'll get a perfect answer to it.

Quote: ["I know i am here. This is all that is needed. Faith."]

You ought to be grateful , that there are somebody more curious than you out there. Somebody building tractors, working with medicine and constructing computors.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 09:58 AM
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How have you come to the conclusion, or what conclusion have you arrived at with this:

(I know i am here.)

So it's not a lie? You like to suddenly turn the tables to suite your argumentitive needs.


This is all i know for sure, yet i do not know where 'here' is and that does not mean the story of death means anything. I think this is what you were getting at.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 



This is all i know for sure, yet i do not know where 'here' is and that does not mean the story of death means anything. I think this is what you were getting at.


I know that i am here, like you said, that is a certainity. What seems to be another certainity is that i have no recollection of anything before i was born. There's nothing (currently) that would suggest i will be living for eternity. I think that is a core reason why death is feared by many. To me, eternity is more of a fear, and comes with a burden, as life comes with the burden of death, but that's not the reason i disbelief life is eternal.

I can't put it any other way.
edit on 5/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


Tractors, computers, scientist, factory workers, i thank you.
God though made all of this possible.
So thank you God.

It does not matter how many half truths you have this will never add up to the truth.
The truth is obvious.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Back to square one.

go away, would you?

You're not progressive at all. We've been polite and tried to expand as much as possible so far. The best we can get out of you is a couple of sentences and questions like "is it a lie?".



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:12 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


You have no recollection of when you were in deep sleep either. When you lay down at night do you fear the nothingness, or do you surrender. The deepest of sleeps is not remembered, yet we love it. We buy the best beds and spend up to one thrird of our 'life' there.

In the begining there was nothing (deep sleep), then there was light (even before waking-during dream states) then there was the word (waking state), the world appears as an image the words are formed and the world appears to you.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Really an outstanding attitude there.
Commendable.
You have been polite to me????
And who are you?



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Have i been impolite before my last post? I don't believe i have.

Have i taken my time to respond the best i can to your questions? YES

Do you keep repeating the same concepts, and the same arguments? YES

Have i run out of patience? YES. And my apologies for that, it's not commendable.

Perhaps Bogomil has not. I will remain an spectator for your particular dialogue.
edit on 5/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:38 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


I don't think i was asking anything of you?
I have the answer.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:40 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


Of course you do.

I do too; I know what's beyond the big bang , because i'm better than science, and i'm an infallable human that has a knowledge far superior to the normal person.

Of course i'm joking, and i couldn't claim that i could reveal knowledge that is unknown. It would be an assumption, speculation, conjecture.

Maybe i'll see you in another thread.

Peace.
edit on 5/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


You wrote:

["Tractors, computers, scientist, factory workers, i thank you."]

Have you actually ever tried to live a longer period without any of the benefits of modern civilization?

Quote: ["God though made all of this possible."]

Postulate.

Quote: ["So thank you God."]

His existence has to be verified first. Otherwise it's a stupid waste of time.

Quote: ["It does not matter how many half truths you have this will never add up to the truth."]

So you DO want to repeat the whole reaoning chain?

Well, I know about gravity, but not exactly why and how. That half-truth is enough for me, and quite important. So you walk out of windows on the tenth floor, because you only want the whole truth on gravity?

Quote: ["The truth is obvious."]

Yes, that's your mantra.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


How could i possibly live before the current technological age? I can never try to live longer than anything.
That is a wild fantasy. I can only experience what is current.
Any imagining of any sort, that is, making what is here presently not here or putting things (concepts) here that are not here. This is blantant fabrication. Like your famous spaggetti monster.

This!!! This, what is it appearing on and what is apppearing to.
This existance.
It is here, we do not need to read books about a far away land, long, long ago.

I am not saying believing in anything is the answer, do not believe. Find out for yourself.
What ever 'this' is, it is undeniable.
It can not be negated, we might not have words for it but some people call it God.
Jesus came to tell the message of consciousness and so did Buddha.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by Itisnowagain
 


You wrote:

["How could i possibly live before the current technological age? I can never try to live longer than anything."]

I didn't say before. I said without.

Quote: ["That is a wild fantasy. I can only experience what is current"]

So it's all words from you, no substance. For 14 years I lived a VERY simplistic life, just as an experiment.

Quote: ["Any imagining of any sort, that is, making what is here presently not here or putting things (concepts) here that are not here."]

14 years is no imagination.

Quote: ["This is blantant fabrication. Like your famous spaggetti monster."]

No, the spaghetti monster was here together with me through those 14 years. My light, when things got dark.

Quote: ["I am not saying believing in anything is the answer, do not believe."]

Let's see, how long time you remember this.

Quote: ["It can not be negated, we might not have words for it but some people call it God.
Jesus came to tell the message of consciousness and so did Buddha."]

I have no objections to 'consciousness' (as I've told at least three times before on different threads). It's when you start pushing your theistic absolutes at the same time, it gets convoluted.



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


Find me anything that i have written where i have believed in something that has not been experienced, in fact even experience is not believable, it is not the ultimate truth.
One could experience a man levitating, but that does not mean the man rose from the ground unaided.
The experience itself was real only because it was experienced. It was percieved by something. What was experienced can always be debatable.
The experience by the experiencer is what the question of consciousness is about (god being another word for consciousness).

edit on 5-6-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


You may well have experienced 14 years of whatever but that is your experience. I have not so to try to do so I have to imagine things that are not real and this is where fantasy steps in. I'm not sure why i have to live without anything or why you asked the question.
Everything is provided as it is, why would i want to take away what is here.
edit on 5-6-2011 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 5 2011 @ 12:37 PM
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Too much imagination makes this life look dull.
Unlearn all you have learned and see what is here.
What is here is light and if you stay here in the light you will be enlightened.
If you believe in there and then you will deluded and only know dead things.




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