Lost Tribe of Israel

In a rather drunken conversation I had with a gent one evening, he mentioned the theory that the lost tribe of Israel, was, infact, somewhat ironically, the Palestinians... Take their nature as nomadic peoples/persecution where ever they are etc, etc

Has anyone done any research on this/ knows the origin of this theory?

Would anyone like to comment?



[edit on 2-8-2004 by The Cockroach]

Abraham and his wife Sarah had one son: Isaac. (Genesis 17-18).
Isaac later married Rebecca. They had two sons. Jacob and Esau. (Genesis 25).

Jacob fathered 12 sons:
Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph (father of two tribes: Manasseh and Ephraim) and Benjamin. They are the ancestors of the tribes of Israel, and the ones for whom the tribes are named.


Palestinians are Arabs from Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc. Most of them are Muslime, some few are Christians.

Abraham also had a son with Sarahs maidservant, Hagar: Ishmael, He is the ancestor of the Arabs (Genesis 16)

Rebekka

I thought there were 7 lost tribes? From what some evidence suggests they may have spread over the continents, and may account for the population of Jewish people in Ethopia, Africa.

one theory is that the lost tribes of isreal are the Europeans.
Isreal broke up into two part...Isreal and Judah. Isreal was the first one to be taken captive and enslaved...then Judah followed later.
Well, later, some claim, after the remnant of Isreal were "free", they susposedly migrated and settled in places like Denmark (tribe of Dan), and Scottland, ect...and are the ancestors of the royalty of these countries.
The throne of David, according to these people, is in either England or Scotland. The Tribe of Judah would be the Jews...

It is interesting to point out, don't know why, that Queen Elizabeth was not the true heir of the throne...it was Queen Mary of Scottland.. who Queen Elizabeth had beheaded. I don't think she had any descendents, but I am not sure. Matter of fact, for some reason, I don't think she was beheaded. I read a book that kind of insinuates that she wasn't and popped up in one of the English colonies.....
have no idea why I believe it, but it goes on to say that she had a son...Henry.

Originally posted by Jazzerman
I thought there were 7 lost tribes?

Ten lost tribes.

".....As a large number of prophecies relate to the return of "Israel" to the Holy Land, believers in the literal inspiration of the Scriptures have always labored under a difficulty in regard to the continued existence of the tribes of Israel, with the exception of those of Judah and Levi (or Benjamin), which returned with Ezra and Nehemiah.

If the Ten Tribes have disappeared, the literal fulfilment of the prophecies would be impossible; if they have not disappeared, obviously they must exist under a different name[...]

According to haggadic tradition, the Ten Tribes were divided into three groups, one on this side of the River Sambation, another on the opposite side, and the third in the neighborhood of Daphne, near Antioch...

Jewish Encyclopedia: The Ten Lost Tribes

But the Palestinians never have been Jews, they can not be one of the lost tribes.


Rebekka

[edit on 2-8-2004 by Riwka]

Tests have been done in the last few years that show that Jews and Arabs are closely related.

www.barzan.com...

"A previous study by Ariella Oppenheim and her colleagues, published in Human Genetics in December 2000, showed that about 70 percent of Jewish paternal ancestries and about 82 percent of Palestinian Arabs share the same chromosomal pool. The geneticists asserted that this might support the claim that Palestinian Arabs descend in part from Judeans who converted to Islam. With their closer relationship to Jews, the Palestinian Arabs are distinctive from other Arab groups, such as Syrians, Lebanese, Saudis, and Iraqis, who have less of a connection to Jews."

This article also says that a study done after the 2000 one showed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to Kurds, Anatolian Turks and Armenians. This suggests to me that these people must be the lost tribes. Very interesting.

Which Jews were they comparing these various people to? Isn't it true that many "jews" today (the european stereotype of a pale person with curly hair and a prominent nose) are descended from Khazar Ukranians?

Oh ok, 10...I was thinking there was more than just one, but for some reason I thought it was seven

Dont know if it's related but,..

House of David

Mary's City of David


An interesting read just the same.

Originally posted by jadestonedoll

This suggests to me that these people must be the lost tribes. Very interesting.

No. See

1 Chronicels 9,3
2 Chronicles 11,13 � 17 and 36,11-21
1.Kings 12,19
2. Kings 17
Ezra 4,12 and 6,7 � 14 and Ezra 6,17

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Which Jews were they comparing these various people to? Isn't it true that many "jews" today (the european stereotype of a pale person with curly hair and a prominent nose) are descended from Khazar Ukranians?

"...Jews from Iran, Iraq, Yemen, North Africa and European Ashkenazim all cluster together with other Semitic groups, with their origin in the Middle East. A common geographical origin can be seen for all mainstream Jewish groups studied.

This genetic research has clearly refuted the once-current libel that the Ashkenazi Jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews, but are descendants of the Kuzar tribe... "

The DNA Chain of Tradition


Rebekka

Ok, cheers guys, but two points.

First up cheers goes to jadestonedoll- here's on the right lines of what I think I was on about!

Secondly, I'm a little confused by your answers, Riwka. On the one hand we have scientific proof of a shared ancestry of Jewish origin; all good, then a counter-argument to scientific study about Jewish and Arab origin based on Biblical evidence whose relevance I'm a little unsure of? It seems to me that if you are willing to accept that a common ancestry is shared between all branches of Judaism, then to refute other scientific evidence to suggest what happened to one of these lost tribes? I realise that I am missing your point. If you would be kind enough to paraphase I would be most greatful!

One other thing that has just occured to me, when you refer to "lost Tribe" I always thought lost as in miss placed and or missing, but it has occured to be that by "lost" you might actually mean "lost to the cause", as such?

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Which Jews were they comparing these various people to? Isn't it true that many "jews" today (the european stereotype of a pale person with curly hair and a prominent nose) are descended from Khazar Ukranians?

This is what it says in the article I posted.

"The researchers sampled a total of 526 Y-chromosomes from 6 populations (Kurdish Jews, Kurdish Muslims, Palestinian Arabs, Sephardic Jews, Ashkenazic Jews, and Bedouin from southern Israel) and added extra data on 1321 persons from 12 populations (including Russians, Belarusians, Poles, Berbers, Portuguese, Spaniards, Arabs, Armenians, and Anatolian Turks). Most of the 95 Kurdish Muslim test subjects came from northern Iraq. Ashkenazic Jews have ancestors who lived in central and eastern Europe, while Sephardic Jews have ancestors from southwestern Europe, northern Africa, and the Middle East. The Kurdish Jews and Sephardic Jews were found to be very close to each other. Both of these Jewish populations differed somewhat from Ashkenazic Jews, who mixed with European peoples during their diaspora. The researchers suggested that the approximately 12.7 percent of Ashkenazic Jews who have the Eu 19 chromosomes -- which are found among between 54 and 60 percent of Eastern European Christians -- descend paternally from eastern Europeans (such as Slavs) or Khazars. But the majority of Ashkenazic Jews, who possess Eu 9 and other chromosomes, descend paternally from Judeans who lived in Israel two thousand years ago. In the article in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University of Israel wrote that this new study revealed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean (Kurds, Anatolian Turks, and Armenians) than to populations in the southern Mediterranean (Arabs and Bedouins)."

The Cockroach


Your Theory is:

�the lost tribe of Israel, was... the Palestinians�

Since most of them are Muslime and no jews, they can not belong to the 12 Tribes.
Muslime refer themselves to Ismael, firstborn son of Abraham by Sarah's Egyptian maidservant, Hagar.

Re jadestonedoll and the �Y-chromosomes�

Halachic rule says:

If ones mother is a jew and the father not: then he is born a jew
If ones mother is a nonjew, ragardless who the father is: he is born a NON-JEW.

If a jewish women would marry kurdish Muslims, Christians whatever, regardless...:
Their child will be born as a jew.

If a noinjewsh woman would marry a converted or born jew:
Their child will be born as a NON � jew - �Eu 19Y- chromosomes�, refering to whatsoever.


Rebekka


[edit on 3-8-2004 by Riwka]

Hi Rebekkah

I'm not really up on halachic rules but it seems to me that if DNA says you are one thing, but some rabbis say that you are not, the logical conclusion would be to believe the dna. Just my opinion, I'm sure many would disagree.

Originally posted by jadestonedoll
Hi Rebekkah

I'm not really up on halachic rules but it seems to me that if DNA says you are one thing, but some rabbis say that you are not, the logical conclusion would be to believe the dna. Just my opinion, I'm sure many would disagree.

No.

For Jews, halachic rule is binding.
Jews do not care what DNA says.

A person born to non-Jewish mother and jewsih father who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a NON-Jew.


Rebekka

Originally posted by Riwka
For Jews, halachic rule is binding.
Jews do not care what DNA says.

Ok, so what we have it down to here, is that genetically speaking, eveyone might be sharing a common ancestry;But that because of Jewish Dogma, it isn't possible.

Glad we got that one cleared up

In genetically speaking both, Jews and Muslim Palestinians, go back to Abraham. (We sometimes call the Palestinians �our cousins�)

Jews go back to Abraham and Sarah, their grandchilden are the ancestors of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Palestinians, Muslime, go back to Abraham and Hagar, their son is the ancestor of the Arabs. So, Abrahams' and Hagars children and grand-grad-grand-children can not belong to the 12 tribes.

Rebekka


[edit on 5-8-2004 by Riwka]

So what you're telling me, and sorry to be so slow on this- I'm feeling on the edge of comprehension now, that although the Abraham thing is a common ancestry, as the mothers line is different, and Jewish heritige is determined by the mother, that the Lost Tribe theory is BS?

Since Jewish heritage is determined by the mother, I find it interesting that we have patriarchs. Why not matriarchs then? Why did God promise Abraham to make his descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky? Why aren't the Jews known as children of Sarah?

On another note, the Genesis account indicates that there were 3 main waves of immigration into Canaan. The first was with Abraham and Hebron. The second was linked with Jacob when he settled in Schechem. The bible tells us that Jacob's sons , who became the ancestors of the 12 tribes of Israel, emigrated to Egypt during a severe famine in Canaan. The third wave of Hebrew settlement came when tribes who claimed to be descendants of Abraham arrived in Canaan from Egypt. They said they had been liberated by Yahweh. It makes sense that they would allie themselves with the Hebrews already in Canaan, bound together by their loyalty to Yahweh. I have a hard time believing that the gene pool of the Hebrews in Egypt and Canaan during those years ( what was it, like 400 years? ) stayed pure and didn't get mixed with tribes descending from Hagar.

Originally posted by jadestonedoll
I have a hard time believing that the gene pool of the Hebrews in Egypt and Canaan during those years ( what was it, like 400 years? ) stayed pure and didn't get mixed with tribes descending from Hagar.

Yes, they mixed. You can read this in the Torah:

1. born or converted jewish woman & arab man (regardless who the father is): their child is born a Jew [Leviticus 24:10] It belongs to the worldwide 13 Million Jewish Community
   
   
   
2. arab (nonjewish) woman & jewish man: their child is born a NONJew [Deuteronomy 7:1-5]
   It is arab, belonging to the worldwide 1 Billion Muslime.