Roswell a 'Soviet plot to create panic in U.S: (Time to Deny Ignorance Or...)

She was on Fresh Air today, very interesting.

Fresh Air

Oh my god. Really? I have only posted a few times on this site. Honestly certain threads on this site are fantastic. But things like this I find absolutely hilarious.

So not only did someone suggest this but a few people think it makes sense. The Nazis and Soviets (international boogey men attributed with more power than they ever really had) crash a plane filled with midget/children/genetically engineered creatures to scare us. That is the story?

And then the government created a smokescreen of alien visitors from another galaxy to cover for something that would have inflamed US sentiment and created a massive amount of patriotism. That makes no sense. None.

Maybe you guys should listen to the npr interview before you die from gut-busting laughter. She addresses many of the questions in this thread.

The day that Mengele would have worked with the Soviets is the day that Jesus and Satan would have an orgy.


Mengele hated the Soviets, possibly even more than Hitler.

reply to post by kazanoom


Apart from a few salient ones such as. Russkis never had a Horton Brother never had a Horton to work from. The Brits had the designs and used them in an adapted form for their own air frames. In 1947 the Russkis were far more interested in building knock offs of the B29s that ditched on Russian soil during WW2.. If you actually know anything about Russian military air frame development they didn't need German ideas, they had a couple of genius level designers of their own when it came to fighter design.

There is also one huge gaping hole in the proposition. if you think that, since the Cold War ended the Russkis wouldn't have gone public with this and had a right good laugh with the rest of the world about they conned the USA, you really don' have much of a grasp on how the real world works.

From the interview "The intelligence agencies fanned out across Europe seeking the Horton Brothers...

The truth... from wiki...

As the war ended, Reimar Horten emigrated to Argentina after failed negotiations with the United Kingdom and China,[5] where he continued designing and building gliders and one twin-engined flying wing transport, which was unsuccessful commercially. Walter remained in Germany after the war and became an officer in the post-war German Air Force Luftwaffe. Reimar died on his ranch in Argentina in 1994, while Walter died in Germany in 1998

The Horton brothers did not create any flying disc they built a tailless air frame. a flying wing, the surviving specimen of which, which was sent to Northrop for evaluation at the end of World War 2. Absolutely nothing secret about it at all.

Then again this author hasn't the first clue what a *dirty bomb* is with regards to a nuclear device. it is nothing like that she describes being a low explosive yield bomb with a high radioactive material content. it designed not to destroy, rather contaminate an area.

That said, when someone expresses surprise in the year 2011, that the USA was testing nuclear bombs in the atmosphere during the 40s and 50s I am sorry but I have to wonder about the level of education you need to work for the LA Times. What's more absolutely no mention of the nuclear powered bomber that was actually tested and scrapped because sea lunched ICBMs were far safer and , more importantly, far cheaper.


In the annals of misinformed, inaccurate information I have never heard such total bilge.

It just gets funnier..... "The children had been made to look like aliens ala War of the Worlds".... so they looked like squids then?

The chief reason many people fell for the Orson Wells broadcast was a simple one. The biggest show of it's time overran the opening of the War of the Worlds broadcast by about 5-10 minutes. Ergo when 1000s of people turned over the station they heard what they thought was a genuine broadcast because they had missed the disclaimer at the start of the show.

*American susceptibility to Science fiction" yes.. right ... and the first Flying Saucer film made was? "Thing from another world" ... in 1951...

As For Mengele..... He vanished after elaving Auschwitz.... again the truth from wiki...

en.wikipedia.org...


The SS abandoned the Auschwitz camp on January 27, 1945, and Mengele transferred to Gross Rosen camp in Lower Silesia, again working as camp physician. Gross Rosen was dissolved at the end of February when the Red Army was close to taking it.[20] Mengele worked in other camps for a short time and, on May 2, joined a Wehrmacht medical unit led by Hans Otto Kahler, his former colleague at the Institute of Hereditary Biology and Racial Hygiene in Bohemia. The unit hurried west to avoid being captured by the Soviets and were taken as prisoners of war by the Americans. Mengele, initially registered under his own name, was released in June 1945 with papers giving his name as "Fritz Hollmann". From July 1945 until May 1949, he worked as a farmhand in a small village near Rosenheim, Bavaria, staying in contact with his wife and his old friend Hans Sedlmeier, who arranged Mengele's escape to Argentina via Innsbruck, Sterzing, Meran, and Genoa. Mengele may have been assisted by the ODESSA netwo

Who is this Annie Jacobsen? Who is her source?
I was so close to get her stupid book (ebook) but I read just the bit on Rosewell and it is so GD dumb that I wasn't going to give her stupid analogy any time! Annie's analogy about a Russian craft with genetic altered humans is the most stupid made up story someone could write about.

I'm not a believer in UFO's at this time, but I would believe a UFO any day over this story!

So what do we have at Rosewell?
UFO Crash?
Soviet Craft with genetic humans?
A top secret balloon with dummies?
It's all a bunch of nonsense and makes it hard to believe anything.

All I know is the most top secret UFO right now was used to fly Seal Team 6 to take care of Bin Laden.
Not even a TR-3b was used.

reply to post by FireMoon



Ewww, nice one. Putting me down while regurgitating russian military history, you really know how the world works. Her source has an impeccable record and worked on the Manhatten project as well as other covert projects. I'd say he knows how the world works more than you or I.

reply to post by kazanoom


Let me put it another way. She's either incredibly stupid or a n outright liar. If you are going to make stuff up, at least do it well. I could cobble together a far far better *book* cleaning the same thing, inside 2 weeks. At least i have some idea what I'm talking about and I could just as easily claim *anonymous sources* told me the whole lot. Her ignorance, about even the most basic facts, is quite breath taking.

The only explanation for this utter buffonery that comes to mind is that. Ms Jacobsen made a bet that she could get a book published and picked Roswell as a "dead cert". If that is the case, fair play to her, she has won her bet. on any other level, the book is one of the most epic fails I have ever come across.

reply to post by theUNKNOWNawaits


blah blah blah roswell wasnt an event aliens dont exists like you think they do. sorry


PS why dont you put me on that STUPID enemies list that ATS has up here. also i wasnt singling YOU out bud. get off your high horse. i was merly voicing my opinion that i think the hole "UFO" "community" is a bunch of babies that love to snarl at people who try to think outside the box. i dont blive anything i read i am merly stating that id belive this chicks story over "UFO" " experts" its laughable that people think an advanced space travelling species just happened to crash here it really is

Originally posted by Upthepunx
reply to post by theUNKNOWNawaits

 

blah blah blah roswell wasnt an event aliens dont exists like you think they do. sorry

PS why dont you put me on that STUPID enemies list that ATS has up here. also i wasnt singling YOU out bud. get off your high horse. i was merly voicing my opinion that i think the hole "UFO" "community" is a bunch of babies that love to snarl at people who try to think outside the box. i dont blive anything i read i am merly stating that id belive this chicks story over "UFO" " experts" its laughable that people think an advanced space travelling species just happened to crash here it really is

There's thinking outside the box and then the suspicion that one would have to be simply off their box if they thought this sort of ill conceived and badly researched tat would pass muster with anyone who knows the slightest details about the subjects it touches on.

Personally, as an Erisian by nature, I love a good wind up and a good scam. However, when something fails so dismally to manage even the basics facts as a historical analysis and as a scam, falls down equally abysmally I do wonder why people waste their time.

reply to post by Upthepunx


You may believe whatever you may.
I think a lot of people snarl, don't you?
I definitely do not mind thinking out of the box, hence my love of philosophy, yet when something blatantly is not true due to facts than there is no going any farther with the idea.
Why is that not possible? Never mind do not even answer that as I do not want to waste more time arguing with someone who starts of with blah blah blah. In the end whose looking bad.
If you wish for me to put you on my enemies list fine, your wish is my command.
Cheers mate.

reply to post by FireMoon


Or she trusts her source who she has known for over 20 years. Truth is stranger than fiction.

reply to post by kazanoom


Then she is by definition a fool. I've been told all sorts of stuff by people who *know* and you think I immediately take it at face value simply cos of who they are and cos I *know them*? No, i check the basic facts surrounding the details I have been told to see if they have any chance of being *correct*.

The author could have checked the Horton brothers out and the history of Mengele and immediately realised that it was total and utter BS and maybe they would have told their source. "Nice try mate, but that's utter tosh."

In the end, it's rank bad research, and rank bad form to quote totally unnamed sources if I was to go that route I could write a book that would scare the crap out of a hell of a lot of readers about the Government and UFOs and just how impotent they are in the face of some unknown technology. I don't, because it would be just total hearsay even though, I do at least have my facts straight about several UFO encounters and the personal involved.

See, there's a paradox at the heart of Ufology, particularly with regards to books and speaking in public. Anyone who has seriously investigated the phenomenon and has an open mind to encounters being hoaxed, mis-identification as well as something more arcane tend to attract *whistle blowers* who need to offload about their experiences. It's all totally off the record and would be denied if you ever named them and you'd never be trusted again. So what do you do? You carry one hoping a crack will appear and something you know happened , because you already have inside info from a deep source, will be forced into the public eye by sheer weight of interest. and someone leaking something or not covering their tracks sufficiently well.

I have a source who, if they were to go public, would cause absolute mayhem among the powers that be. Their credentials are impeccable, their experience vast and they worked in an area that means they more than likely know more than 99% of the world's population about how governments view UFOs. Their statement to me was nothing outlandish, not claiming anything spectacular on their own behalf at all, but should their words become public and attributed to them, it would see a sea change in how the subject is viewed. Now, the point is, virtually every respected Ufologist will tell you a similar story. The skeptics can't, because no-one would ever trust them not to use the information passed on for their own uses and to further their own agenda.

The experience of just about every serious Ufologist is that. there are times when one thinks, i really can;t be bothered with this any more, fools, charlatans, and others who do know something, steadfastly refusing to be honest about things. Often, we walk away and take a sabbatical from the whole scene. That sabbatical nearly always ends when someone you think of as.... the last person I'd ever expect to hear that from..... comes clean and you realise there is indeed, something there that deserves to be talked about rationally in the public domain.

Anyone taking this latest Roswell *revelation* seriously should hang their head in shame and realise that, by doing so, they have in effect, forgone any right they might have to ever point the finger of fun at someone like Stephen Greer. if they are willing to believe the bilge that is presented as, fact, by this author then they should equally believe any old crap Greer might suggest as well.

The question one should really ask of people who publish books on the subject and make documentaries about it is this.

"How many times have you been convinced you have the actual evidence to add something truly worthwhile to the body of knowledge about the subject only for, at the twelfth hour, to have an essential person withdraw their participation yet, it was too late to stop the publishers/television station going ahead and therefore making the author look like a bit of a prune in public"?

The answer you will most likely receive to that question is indeed a fascinating one, I know, I have been there on the verge of commencing a work only to have the two key witnesses, back out at the last minute. Not only that, I then had the people backing the project try to force it through even though I pointed out, without those person's testimony on camera, it was just another case of *hearsay*. and therefore, in the final analysis, pointless.

Just maybe, the author of this tat, should have considered that before wasting people's time

this topic needs pictures.
...or i'm calling bull#.

reply to post by anon72


I bought the book. It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense, but it's pretty hefty and has lots of references.

Maybe the key point - which would ruin Roswell as evidence of ET contact with Earth - is on pages 36 and 37. Jacobsen says, "The vehicle had no tail and it had no wings. The fuselage was round and there was a dome mounted on the top. In secret Army intelligence memos declassified in 1994, it would be referred to as a 'flying disc'. Most alarming was a fact kept secret until now - inside the disc, there was a very earthly hallmark: Russian writing. Block letters from the Cyrillic alphabet had been stamped, or embossed, in a ring running around the inside of the craft."

The book does have references, though linked only to pages, not to sentences. These reveal that Jacobsen's only source for these momentous claims is an anonymous "EG & G engineer". The Stalin/Mengele material comes later in the book, and appears to come from the same person.

I wonder if this source is the same as told Nick Redfern the absurd tale about the 'Bodysnatchers in the Desert', and unless further reading reveals something dramatic, it looks as if the only meaningful question will be whether or not Jacobsen is a victim, or a part, of the hoax.

Originally posted by Khaaaaaan!!

Can you even imagine russians in a remote section of mexico trying to get a german advanced prototype off the ground?

A Cuban Air Force pilot decided he was going to defect and flew his jet all the way to Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico where he landed right on the military flightline and it was quite awhile before any security even showed up to deal with him.

The HO-229 being the Roswell crash item is perfectly plausible. Remote Control of bombs came from the Nazi's and their same technology could have guided a HO-229 from another aircraft trailing it.

Plausible theory. They could have put dead shaved burnt monkeys inside it to add to their Psychological Warfare Tactic.

reply to post by Snippy23

Maybe the key point - which would ruin Roswell as evidence of ET contact with Earth - is on pages 36 and 37. Jacobsen says, "The vehicle had no tail and it had no wings. The fuselage was round and there was a dome mounted on the top. In secret Army intelligence memos declassified in 1994, it would be referred to as a 'flying disc'. Most alarming was a fact kept secret until now - inside the disc, there was a very earthly hallmark: Russian writing. Block letters from the Cyrillic alphabet had been stamped, or embossed, in a ring running around the inside of the craft."

Huzzah! Someone else who has actually read (or at least skimmed) the book! The quotation you cite is on page 370 of my edition. Most of the book is actually well researched, although muckraking in tone. Yes, her ignorance of the Cold War mentality is shocking. Yes, her understanding of certain technical terms and so forth is appalling... but in the last chapter she guarantees that her book will be on the top of the Non-Fiction Bestseller List next week... by introducing a bit of fiction. Many others here have pointed out the problems, often much more eloquently than I am about to. Here, in brief, are the little "problems" with this story:

1. Her "source" is completely anonymous, yet claims to be one of the five original key holders to Area 51. Seems to me that if any of these alleged "key holders" are still alive, her source has blown his anonymity.

2. She claims that the craft had "hover and fly" characteristics, and that it was based on a Horten design. The Hortens designed flying wings, not helicopters. It seems to me that if "anti-gravity" propulsion were possible, the Hortens wouldn't have wasted their time designing aerodynamically unstable flying wings.

3. Stalin was without doubt a master of propaganda. Which would have a better propaganda impact: crashing your most advanced "anti-gravity" fighter in an uninhabited American desert, or flying a V-formation of them over Red Square on May Day?

4. If you were Stalin, would you intentionally provide your existential rival with your most advanced aircraft to allow them to reverse engineer it?

5. If you were crazy enough to think that hoaxing an extraterrestrial crash was a cunning plan, would you be so sloppy as to engrave "Made in the Soviet Union" on the inside in Russian?

6. Jacobsen describes Dr. Mengele's grotesque experiments in plastic surgery, then says that his records of the experiment were taken with him to South America where they disappeared. How was she able to read them then?

7. She claims that the children were surgically and genetically altered, decades before Crick and Watson discovered DNA.

8. If the pilots were surgically altered, operations on that scale would be perfectly obvious even to someone without medical training. There would be massive scarring, mismatched bone and tissue, etc.

9. The "source" claims that two of the "pilots" were unconscious but comatose, so they were stored suspended upright in green jelly. That is simply not what one does when someone is comatose. Anyone who watches House, M.D. (or any soap opera) could tell you that. She must have got the "green goo" idea from Austin Powers!

The list can be extended indefinitely. The question is: did she make this all up herself in order to sell her book? Or was she deliberately fed mis-information in order to discredit the rest of it?

A Cuban Air Force pilot decided he was going to defect and flew his jet all the way to Holloman Air Force Base, New Mexico where he landed right on the military flightline and it was quite awhile before any security even showed up to deal with him.

Interesting story. Source?