A fusion in belief

When i look at the development of cutures throughout human history, 3 main "bodies" stick out. You have the West, the East, and than the influence of Judaism.

First i'll mention the west and "greek" civilization. The Greeks have their excesses, no doubt, but their main strength is their sometimes coldly "objective" analysis of reality. Today we regard philosophy as beginning in Athens, whose name comes from the Greek Goddess of wisdom, Athena. Even though undoubtedly there was much philosophy before the time of Thales, Pythagoras and Socrates, academics still attribute so much to the Greeks? Why is that? I wont pretend to be an expert in Hellenistic philosophy, im not. But im still nonetheless curious as to what made the Greeks so motivated and able to spread their culture across the world; first through Alexander the Great and then the Roman Empire. A particular strength i find in Greek philosophy, which is actually first seen in their mythology is their purely disassociated analysis of phenomena. They make no assumptions about an all powerful G-d responsible for the reality we see and experience. To the Greeks the question doesnt even seem to matter. What theyre cheifly concerned with is what to make of all that exists. The "gods" in this sense are the first example of this analysis. Id like to mention that the "gods" were mesopotomian in origin, so the greeks werent solely responsible for this development. In anycase, Zeus, Poseidan, Hades and all the other "olympians" represented principles in reality the Greeks saw at work. Eventually the Greek mind created myths like Jason and Medea, Theseus, Perseus and Heracles,... These represented "psychologies" in a way, although quite different from how we percieve the subject today. It was this inner grasp of phenomena which propelled the Greek to find concreate, albeit sometimes unnecessarily convoluted solutions to real life problems.

In my opinion, the Greeks offerred much good to the development of man and it was chiefly their raw, unbridled desire (which is what the myth of uranous/gaia, cronus and aphrodite symbolizes - the Greek compulsion for the "new" and obsession with progression) for physical action that was the impeus behind civilizations advancement.


On the other hand, we have the Eastern world. I again dont know very much about Eastern philosophy other than its cool "stoic" like approach to existence. Its interesting that in metaphysics, the east is associated with spirituality, and the west with materiality; and indeed in civilization, the east has been much more 'holistic' and spiritual in their take on reality, while the west has been more materialistic. The east - by which which i mean particularly India/Tibet and China, you have a very abstract and sophistacted system of metaphysics. India has been known since ancient times as a place where men are unusually gifted with spiritual talents; whether that be in their yoga or tantra, possessng psychic powers, meddling with magic and spirits, etc..

But as much as it excels in 'spirituality', nonethless the east lacks a balance with the physical, temporal and practical side of life, and this is particularly noticeable today in many regards. Lack of clealiness being a result of their preponderance on the abstract and spiritual. The Ganges for instance is putridly dirty. People still go to the washroom in it, aswell as bathe. You also have an overpopulation issue which means a lack of sexual self control, and thus implies a lack of modesty and ethics. Also, India has had since ancient times a major disconnect between the upper "noble" classes and the common class, without much revolt (atleast in my knowledge) from the lower classes because of their contentment with being born paupers. This is a result of their religion.

So you got the west with their insistence on "action" and the east with inaction, or quietness...In between these two great areas you got Israel and Judaism. Now Judaism is neither like the hellenists, or the Easternes, but sort of combine and mediate between the excesses of each side. Judaism for instance emphasizes physicality and physical action, in the form of commandments. These commandments are not to be down by rote though, but with deep spiritual intention. Judaism also emphasizes the oneness of creation - "hear Israel, The L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is one" which is something you would find more in the east, but they also unite this "general" belief with the particular - something more indicative of the west.

Judaism in my opinion exposes the lackings in both sides. The greeks are too involved in the particular, which causes life in all its areas to lose contact with the general reality of everything being one, and thus it can become quite nihilistic/relativistic in its ethics. On the other hand, the easterns are too involved with the general, at the expense to the particular. Its historic lack of concern for the little guy, and for mans ability to bring justice into the world through proper choices, in action, has caused them to consider the question as alltogether unimportant - "Karma" is the excuse for why charity should not be gien by the kings and nobles or wealthy. And its not questoned. Eveything is thought of as "perfect" even though different choices can have drastic effects on peoples physical comfort in this life and world.

Christianity combined elements of the West - Hellenism, and a certain doctrine of the near east (zoroastrianism) with Judaism to create a sort of hybrid.. Islam on the other hand in its beginnings integrated greek philosophy - aristolte/plato, but in the last few hundred years has moved away from that. Islam now is synonymous with rigid conservatism. Judaism too has had its downfalls. Undoubtedly in its beginnings at Sinai, it was perfect and was not meant for mankind, but only for one particular nation amongst mankind. But throughout their Diaspora the Jews have somewhat lost contact with the original intentions. Talmud is a phenomenal work and definitely divinely inspired, but it began to take precedence even over Torah, at the expense to the "prophetic" and spiritual, and became overly concerned with physical laws and moral teachings. This was 'remedied" by Chassidism in the 17th century but it still hasnt had its full influence on the greater Jewish body.

My point in this whole thread is this: The west, East and the Center - Hellenism, Dharmic religions, and Judaism (through Christianity and Islam) have something beneficial to provide for all humanity. I believe future man will benefit from a fusion between all these different views. Of course perhaps not to the extent that we all think the same way, but nonetheless we could benefit from combining the elements that each group excels in in order to be more "balanced" in the bigger picture. Or if we dont seek a "fusion" of different beliefs, it is nonetheless interesting to see how the east west and center perfectly complement one another.

true , we all hold specific parts of the one truth , combining our truths would manifest an even bigger truth for us too see

Indeed, this is why people such as the Dalai Lama say things like "The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God." It doesn't matter which "religion" you choose. Accept them all if you want a bigger picture. They are there as tools and guidelines for you to get closer to God. This is why things like fundamentalism is blinding.

As the poster above said (and well said by the way):

Originally posted by yets777
true , we all hold specific parts of the one truth , combining our truths would manifest an even bigger truth for us too see

And as Jesus said, "Love your brother like your soul, guard him like the pupil of your eye." We are all brothers and sisters. One day we will all know this and amalgamate.

Originally posted by dontreally

But as much as it excels in 'spirituality', nonethless the east lacks a balance with the physical, temporal and practical side of life, and this is particularly noticeable today in many regards. Lack of clealiness being a result of their preponderance on the abstract and spiritual. The Ganges for instance is putridly dirty. People still go to the washroom in it, aswell as bathe. You also have an overpopulation issue which means a lack of sexual self control, and thus implies a lack of modesty and ethics. Also, India has had since ancient times a major disconnect between the upper "noble" classes and the common class, without much revolt (atleast in my knowledge) from the lower classes because of their contentment with being born paupers. This is a result of their religion.

edit on 13-5-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

Wow.. An overpopulation issue means a lack of sexual self control? And Implies a lack of Modesty and Ethics? Do you have any facts to support this or just your racist biased opinions?

Hi dontreally -

The issue of course with Rabinnic Judaiesm as it is still practiced by most persons who consider themselves to be 'Jews' to-day is that they still hold to their supposedly ancient 'Torah' as the core of their 'inspired scriptures" (even if it is in the warped, textually corrupt 'Masoretic' pointed text from Leningrad c. 960 AD, wwhich differs from the texts discovered at Qumran which are 1000 years older than the MT (Masoretic Text) and the SamPent/Samartian Pentateuch which is also a much older text tradition) - which, in the last analysis, when all is said and done, at the end of the day, teaches in esssence that there are two kinds of persons in the world - 'chosen race' who were hand selected to thrive as 'the chosen peoplee of the clan god YHWH) and 'the gentile nations' (i.e. the goyim) which the Torah commands those of the 'master race /chosen people' to 'exterminate'

(lit. 'mark for utter destruction i.e. "genocide" via what we to-day call 'ethnic cleansing').

For a discussion of this anomaly within Judaeism (especially in view of the 'Nazi-holocaust' which turned the genocide of the Torah on its ears) see the ATS thread posted by a former member called 'AmadeuS'

www.abovetopsecret.com...

ref: the express genocidal policies of the Torah of 'Mosheh' in relation to the extermination of the 'Amelekites' and other gentile nations (''goyim') i.e. non-Israelites.

In other words, torah-based Judaism does NOT seem to have a viable future in our present 21st century world of Tolerance and Acceptance of 'the Other'. It preaches a Master Race syndrome which most of us thought died out with the last gasps of the Third Reich in April of 1945.

Read Deuteronomy chapter 7, Deuteronomy chapter 13 and Deuteronomy chapter 20 for a taste of these little 'Torah tidbits' that form part of the core of the 'Jewish' religion - which is ANYTHING but universal in outlook


Exodus 17: 8-16

And YHWH said to Mosheh, Write this down as a Memorial on a Scroll and read it into the ears of Joshua son of Nun : Behold, I will Exterminate the Seed (lit. ‘Remembrance’) of the Amalekites from Under the Heavens. Therefore Mosheh built an Altar to YHWH right there etc.

NB: the may hand-copied text versions s of the Torah and other Heb. ‘scriptures’ over the centuries (SamPent, Heb. Vorlage to the LXX Greek, the later Masoretic text,l the mangled earlier consonantal texts from the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Targumim etc.) especially the ones prior to AD 200 don’t always match letter for letter, but the gist is the same in these cases in most of the versions of the Torah etc.

See Deuteronomy 7: 1-5

When YHWH your clan god brings you to the land where you are headed to take possession of it, and has cast out the goyim before you even the Hittites, and the Girga#es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, even seven gentile nations that are more numerous and powerful that you are now:

And when YHWH your clan god has delivered them, you shall utterly exterminate them all showing no mercy to them; neither will you make peace treaties with them nor enter into marriage with them – for they will surely turn your sons from following me, and cause them to worship other clan gods – thus will the anger of YHWH burn against you and destroy you without notice.

Deuteronomy 13: 12-17a

12 If you should hear a rumour in one of the towns which YHWH your clan god will give you to live in, saying ‘I heard certain evil men taking some of the town out encouraging them to worship other foreign clan gods which you have not yet heard of, you shall set up an Inquiry and if the acusation is proved true that such a ritual Toqebah (‘cultic abomination’) has in fact taken place, you will utterly genocide all the inhabitants of that town, utterly destroying the town and its inhabitants, even down to the animals – then you will gather together all of their belongings and utterly burn the lot in the town square – and not take any of it for yourself, and leave it a perpetual Ruin, never again to be rebuilt.

Deuteronomy 20: 10-18

This is the Rule of War for the Towns of the Goyim which YHWH your clan god shall give unto you and your sons as an Inheritance – You shall leave nothing alive that breathes, but you shall utterly exterminate every one of them, namely the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; exactly as YHWH your clan god has commanded you, so that they will not be able to teach you all of their peculiar ritual Toq’eboth (‘taboos’, ‘cultic abominations’) that they perform for their own clan gods, leading you into sin against YHWH your clan god.

Deuteronomy 25:17-19

Now remember what Amalekites (lit. ‘Amalek’) did to you when you were sojourning out of the land of Mitzrayim : how they came upon you on the road and attacked your rear guard, including the weakest ones in your camps, and how they showed no reverence for the Elohim (‘gods’) – therefore it shall come to pass that when the land you shall be given by you own clan god YHWH is finally settled and becomes your Inheritance to possess, you shall utterly genocide the Seed of Amalek (lit. ‘Remembrance’) from under the heavens – you will never ever forget this.

Outside the Torah, we have references to ‘the fulfillment of the Divine Commands to genocide’ the goyim in books like Joshua and 1 Samuel, in the context of the (CH-R-M) i.e. the Holy War ‘devoted’ marking of a particular group for racial and cultural Extermination and Genocide of the other’: -

This is the same type of ‘racial’ marking-segregation of the ‘other’ that we saw in the last century in the Nazi death camps only in the last century, the religious underpinnings of the genocide were not emphasised to the public (e.g. the Secret Thule Society Tenets of Aryan Supremacy and how to deal with the 'slave races' etc.)

See : Joshua 8:1-2, 8:23

Joshua 10: 31-33 (ref the extermination of Lachish)
Joshua 10:34-35 (ref the genocide of Eglon)
Joshua 10:36-37 (ref the wiping out of the Hebronites)
Joshua 10: 38-39 (ref the annhialation of Debir)

Then read Joshua 10:40b where it states proudly

‘And Joshua utterly exterminated everything that had life in it, leaving not a single soul alive that breathed , in accordance with the express and direct Command of YHWH…'

These are very good and solid reasons (above) why we can safely say that Torah based Judaism is NOT in any way, shape or form understood at all as 'Universal' in terms of applying to modern conceptions of the world to-day (i.e. as perhaps also the Greek philosophical schools might be, although they too used to brand people into two groups - i.e. as 'Hellenos' (Greek) and 'Barbarian' (non-Greek) and offers very good reasons why we must steer very clear of any right wing radical Torah based Judaeo-Christian belief systems to-day as being anything close to being 'inspired' by god-like (or 'divine') 'universal' Being.

The Torah, when examined closely for what it ACTUALLY says, is nothing but a clumsy collection of zionist ravings of a xenophobic. sexist, superstitious post-Exilic ancient Leventine priesthood dedicated to an anciennt desert clan-god who has long lost his relevance to-day in the 21st century.

Wow.. An overpopulation issue means a lack of sexual self control? And Implies a lack of Modesty and Ethics? Do you have any facts to support this or just your racist biased opinions?

reply to post by Buddha1098


India isnt very concerned with "moral" issues, atleast not in the same sense that Judeo-Christian influenced westerners are....

This of course doesnt mean to say there arent moral Hindus, or Buddhists. Its just their socieities dont put the same restrictions and/or emphasis on proper moral conduct as you would find in a Christian society. Im not saying they are evil, corrupt, or twisted, just that they have an alltogether different understanding of morality...and so the Hindu/Buddhist paradigm is different.

Maybe my assumption of hindu licentiousness was offbase. Im basing myself on my limited understanding of Hindu philosophy and Tantra (which in itself is a sexually concerned subject) ... So suspecting Hindus of being "liberal" in regards to sexuality cannot be an altogether ignorant statement... The kama Sutra after all is a hnidu creation.

Also, look at the "gypsies". From whence did these people notorious for their scandalous ways come from? India. Im not bashing India, but merely stating facts. They have their strengths, and also their weaknessses. They are not "perfect" although their paradigm assumes everything to be perfect the way it is

Finally, this was just my opinion, so theres no need to fret. I probably am more considerate of Jewish/Western philosophy than I am of Hindu/Buddhist...so i have a slight bias.

reply to post by Sigismundus

For a discussion of this anomaly within Judaeism (especially in view of the 'Nazi-holocaust' which turned the genocide of the Torah on its ears) see the ATS thread posted by a former member called 'AmadeuS'

*sigh*

You must be new to me. Listen, i have my problems with the way some Jews interpet Torah, but for the most part, i am whats called a "Noahide" ie; i follow Rabbinic Judaism. So please spread your racist lying antisemitic inciting garbage somewhere else.

Judasm does NOT and has NEVER called for the extermination of gentiles. This is nothing but lies. If you read the Talmud, or the Shulchan Aruch (Jewish code of law) it states explicitly that a Jew is not to hurt, steal or doing anything provoking the hatred of the Goyim. What would be the purpose of Judaism if G-d selected them to be a "nation of priests" without other nations to serve?..Whats a priest without a congregation? The nations are the "congregation". G-d does not love Jews more than gentiles. Its just Jews - and any any Gentile who wants to enter this covenenant can do so (so your idea of the Jews being "special" "chosen" by virtue of birth is incorrect) by converting - have a special, albeit, intellectually mystifying purpose in this world that concerns them and the creator. You want to degrade that relationship? Go ahead. Just leave them be in Israel. That is all the Jews ave ever asked, and the gentiles have been anything but compliant.

In other words, torah-based Judaism does NOT seem to have a viable future in our present 21st century world of Tolerance and Acceptance of 'the Other'.

Oh I know who the real Genocists are ie; GNOSTICS. Afterall, Alice Bailey, the founder of the UN sponsored Lucis Trust said in her book "Plan for the New World Order," in the section on the "reorganization of world religions," that Goal No. 2 calls for:]

"The gradual dissolution - again if in any way possible - of the Orthodox Jewish faith, with its obsolete teaching, its separative emphasis."

Threatened are you?? I would definitely say so. And im especially amazed by her wording of "in any way possible". She wrote that in '48, just three years after Hitlers attempt to kill them all.

If you read Hebrew, you'll know that it is the language of creation. If you dont know this, than you havent really studied Hebrew at an esoteric level. Bailey and those who back her - the gnostic european aristocrats - definitely know this and are completely possesed in their desire to destroy Orthodox Judaism . THEY are what the Torah and Moshe demands "you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget" ... and in Exodus 17 "Because a hand is on the throne of Yah. YHVH will be at war with Amalek throughout the ages".....It is this diabolical group with their absolutely demonic hatred for Judaism and Jews, who have their filthy hands on the throne of the creator, trying to corrupt the natural order of creation, who are trying to get rid of G-ds emmisaries in this world.

'Barbarian' (non-Greek) and offers very good reasons why we must steer very clear of any right wing radical Torah based Judaeo-Christian belief systems to-day as being anything close to being 'inspired' by god-like (or 'divine') 'universal' Being

Where do you get your information? Go to Templeinstitute.org, or UniversalTorah.org if you think the teachings of Torah arent applicable on a universal level. And what is it about the 7 laws of Noach that are so unapplicable? That is all Torah Judaism expects of mankind. To not Kill, Steal, Harm Animals/nature, act lasciviously (respect sexuality), Not to idolize, and not to be blasphemy G-ds name (Respect the creator, and respect the power of speech ie; other people who are made in the image of the creator)...

Only those who understand what Judaism is, and understand the purpose of the Jews relative to the gentiles can understand why the Jews have sufferred so badly under Gentile governments. They claearly understand what it means for them, morally speaking, and the Hellenistic need for "progression" and the Buddhist G-dless moral relatvism cannot co-exist with a Judaism which brings G-d into the world. You may not agree with this assertion, but its the truth. The simple, undiluted fact of the situation.

reply to post by dontreally


Hi dontreally -

You must be joking. I mean, seriously.

Now I want you to listen very carefully...and follow-the-bouncing-ball...

I hope you don't REALLY believe that any idea of post exilic clan god ('elohim') of Yisro'el "Yahweh" (YHWH) is in any way 'universal' -

The key word here is 'clan-god' - you know, the god of a specific clan - as opposed to 'other people's clan gods' e.g. Chemosh or Dagon or Moleckh.

See ‘Judges’ chapter 11:21 ff for a taste of this non-universal tribalism inherent and embedded into the Hebrew scriptures – here is one version of one family of texts (in the late pointed Masoretic text version which modern day Rabinnic Jews and Protestants consider ‘to defile the hands’-

(but cf: the slightly different text versions in the earlierSamPent and all the Heb. Vorlagen to the Greek LXX Septuaginta, Theodotion, Symmachus and Aquila’s Vorlagen texts !)

וַיִּתֵּן יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-סִיחוֹן וְאֶת-כָּל-עַמּוֹ, בְּיַד יִשְׂרָאֵל--וַיַּכּוּם; וַיִּירַשׁ, יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֵת כָּל-אֶרֶץ הָאֱמֹרִי, יוֹשֵׁב הָאָרֶץ הַהִיא

11:21 Yahweh, the clan-god of Yisro’el l, has freed Sihon and all his people into the hands of Yisro’el, who then murdered them: thus Israel took all the land of the Amorites, who were the area’s original inhabitants.
וַיִּירְשׁוּ, אֵת כָּל-גְּבוּל הָאֱמֹרִי--מֵאַרְנוֹן, וְעַד-הַיַּבֹּק, וּמִן-הַמִּדְבָּר, וְעַד-הַיַּרְדֵּן

11:22 For they took everything within the borders of the Amorites, from Arnon to Jabbok, and from the desert to Jordan.
וְעַתָּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, הוֹרִישׁ אֶת-הָאֱמֹרִי, מִפְּנֵי, עַמּוֹ יִשְׂרָאֵל; וְאַתָּה, תִּירָשֶׁנּוּ

11:23 Thus Yahweh, the clan-god of Israel, has taken the land of the Amorites from them at the hands of the sons of Yisro’el, and do you think you can take them?
הֲלֹא אֵת אֲשֶׁר יוֹרִישְׁךָ, כְּמוֹשׁ אֱלֹהֶיךָ--אוֹתוֹ תִירָשׁ; וְאֵת כָּל-אֲשֶׁר הוֹרִישׁ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, מִפָּנֵינוּ--אוֹתוֹ נִירָשׁ

11:24 Why don’t you take the land which Chemosh your own clan-god has given to you to take for yourselves? For whatever Yahweh our clan god has taken on our behalf, we will keep.


The Weltanschauung reflected int the above text doesn't sound like a very (ahem) 'universal' god to me.In fact it sounds more like a, well...clan-god. Which is what YHWH is.

I mean, seriously, do you really think that intelligent people will swallow the idea of a Master Race (er....Chosen People) as being 'universal' at all.

Maybe you should stand back from your religion...and your pre-suppositions and those of your teachers...and take a hard look at the evidence.

And knock off all that 'antisemite' mud-slinging. The next thing you'll be using the word 'holocaust' and 'woe is us'...but the time has come to get down to brass tacks on the little issue of 'racism, sexism, xenophobia and intolerance of Other' as it appears in the texts of Rabinnic Judaiesm and see them for what they are. Racist. Xenophobic. Sexist. Intolerant. And Superstitious.

Listen to the Creed itself, which kind of spills the beans : 'Shema' o Yisro'el, YHWH elohenu, YHWH echad.'

lit. 'Hear O Israel, Yahweh is OUR clan god, Yahweh alone !'

(which is NOT as some Rebbes try to foist on the unsuspecting goyim, to be translated as 'Hear O Yisroel the lord our god the lord is one' - which does gross violence to the text.

It is all about competing clan gods. Which one is better than the other one. Because they say so. And they wrote the books (it's called Considering the Source...aka 'the Lying Pen of the Scribes' as the prophet Jeremiah so aptly named it).

And what does the supposedly ancient 'written Torah' have to say on the matter?

See Exod 20:2-3 (in the MT since (apparently) that's the version you've ever been allowed to read)

אָנֹכִי יְהוָה

לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי

'I am Yahweh - you will have no competing ('other') clan gods before my face[s]...'

All these competing ancient middle eastern clan gods are such a nuisance to the true, modern 21st century Spiritual Universalist - who is trying very hard to go against the grain in order to bring ALL people together in the world, and not separate them according to religion or race etc. (and who does not espouse doctrines dripping with sexism or extremist-racism or xenophobia &tc. , but True Equality for ALL people on this planet - and not just for the 'chosen people' of YHWH, or whatever clan god you want to choose...), as everybody knows.

Tiresome phrases and (to us moderns) 'silly' words like 'eloheynu' ('OUR clan god') and 'eloheyekhah' ('YOUR clan god') which occur so many hundreds of times in the mangled texts of the Hebrew scriptures over and over and oveer again, make them anything but 'Universal' - but on the other hand, positively 'clannish', wouldn't you agree?

Or maybe you have never stepped back from your presuppositions and taken a 'hard look' at your own Weltanschauung.

If you try and defend this clannish notion of making one clan god better than another regional clan god - which is still embedded into the most ancient traditions of ALL the various modern day Rabinnic 'Judaeisms' out there in the wild to-day - from the ultra right wing extermist anti-goyim murderers (e.g. the deluded racist followers of Meir Kahane -May-his-Bones-be-Dust-) out there and try and paste a 'goyim-friendly' or 'universalist face' on it, you are not only trying to delude the goyim...you are also deluding yourself.

It just does not wash.

I want you to really try and think hard about these matters. From your silly post back to me, you haven't a clue about what you are talking about.

Shame, really.

Interesting idea, but why leave out the new world, the first people's of America certainly have great spiritual and philosophical ideas as well. Maybe you should broaden the scope to include all the ideas of the world. Anyway good thread.

Peace be with you.

reply to post by themessengernevermatters


I think the Natives are an extension of the Asians...

Not only do they somewhat look like them - indicating that they are probably derived from the east - but their spiritual philosophies are very similar.

In anycase, i dont mean to leave out the natives. Of all peoples, i appreciate them in a very special way. I love the Cherokee and the Native Amrican flute. I find it beautiful.

They are a peaceful, G-d fearing people.

But this thread was meant to emphasize the 3 great ancient centers which influenced world thought. You have the Dharmic religions in the east, Hellenism in the west, and Judaism between them.