reply to post by dontreally
Hi dontreally -
You must be joking. I mean, seriously.
Now I want you to listen very carefully...and follow-the-bouncing-ball...
I hope you don't REALLY believe that any idea of post exilic clan god ('elohim') of Yisro'el "Yahweh" (YHWH) is in any way 'universal' -
The key word here is 'clan-god' - you know, the god of a specific clan - as opposed to 'other people's clan gods' e.g. Chemosh or Dagon or Moleckh.
See ‘Judges’ chapter 11:21 ff for a taste of this non-universal tribalism inherent and embedded into the Hebrew scriptures – here is one version
of one family of texts (in the late pointed Masoretic text version which modern day Rabinnic Jews and Protestants consider ‘to defile the hands’-
(but cf: the slightly different text versions in the earlierSamPent and all the Heb. Vorlagen to the Greek LXX Septuaginta, Theodotion, Symmachus and
Aquila’s Vorlagen texts !)
וַיִּתֵּן יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶת-סִיחוֹן וְאֶת-כָּל-עַמּוֹ, בְּיַד
יִשְׂרָאֵל--וַיַּכּוּם; וַיִּירַשׁ, יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֵת כָּל-אֶרֶץ הָאֱמֹרִי, יוֹשֵׁב
11:21 Yahweh, the clan-god of Yisro’el l, has freed Sihon and all his people into the hands of Yisro’el, who then murdered them: thus Israel
took all the land of the Amorites, who were the area’s original inhabitants.
וַיִּירְשׁוּ, אֵת כָּל-גְּבוּל הָאֱמֹרִי--מֵאַרְנוֹן, וְעַד-הַיַּבֹּק,
11:22 For they took everything within the borders of the Amorites, from Arnon to Jabbok, and from the desert to Jordan.
וְעַתָּה יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, הוֹרִישׁ אֶת-הָאֱמֹרִי, מִפְּנֵי, עַמּוֹ
יִשְׂרָאֵל; וְאַתָּה, תִּירָשֶׁנּוּ
11:23 Thus Yahweh, the clan-god of Israel, has taken the land of the Amorites from them at the hands of the sons of Yisro’el, and do you think you
can take them?
הֲלֹא אֵת אֲשֶׁר יוֹרִישְׁךָ, כְּמוֹשׁ אֱלֹהֶיךָ--אוֹתוֹ תִירָשׁ; וְאֵת
כָּל-אֲשֶׁר הוֹרִישׁ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, מִפָּנֵינוּ--אוֹתוֹ נִירָשׁ
11:24 Why don’t you take the land which Chemosh your own clan-god has given to you to take for yourselves? For whatever Yahweh our clan god has
taken on our behalf, we will keep.
The Weltanschauung reflected int the above text doesn't sound like a very (ahem) 'universal' god to me.In fact it sounds more like a, well...clan-god.
Which is what YHWH is.
I mean, seriously, do you really think that intelligent people will swallow the idea of a Master Race (er....Chosen People) as being 'universal' at
Maybe you should stand back from your religion...and your pre-suppositions and those of your teachers...and take a hard look at the evidence.
And knock off all that 'antisemite' mud-slinging. The next thing you'll be using the word 'holocaust' and 'woe is us'...but the time has come to get
down to brass tacks on the little issue of 'racism, sexism, xenophobia and intolerance of Other' as it appears in the texts of Rabinnic Judaiesm and
see them for what they are. Racist. Xenophobic. Sexist. Intolerant. And Superstitious.
Listen to the Creed itself, which kind of spills the beans : 'Shema' o Yisro'el, YHWH elohenu, YHWH echad.'
lit. 'Hear O Israel, Yahweh is OUR clan god, Yahweh alone !'
(which is NOT as some Rebbes try to foist on the unsuspecting goyim, to be translated as 'Hear O Yisroel the lord our god the lord is one' - which
does gross violence to the text.
It is all about competing clan gods. Which one is better than the other one. Because they say so. And they wrote the books (it's called Considering
the Source...aka 'the Lying Pen of the Scribes' as the prophet Jeremiah so aptly named it).
And what does the supposedly ancient 'written Torah' have to say on the matter?
See Exod 20:2-3 (in the MT since (apparently) that's the version you've ever been allowed to read)
לֹא-יִהְיֶה לְךָ אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים, עַל-פָּנָי
'I am Yahweh - you will have no competing ('other') clan gods before my face[s]...'
All these competing ancient middle eastern clan gods are such a nuisance to the true, modern 21st century Spiritual Universalist - who is trying very
hard to go against the grain in order to bring ALL people together in the world, and not separate them according to religion or race etc. (and who
does not espouse doctrines dripping with sexism or extremist-racism or xenophobia &tc. , but True Equality for ALL people on this planet - and not
just for the 'chosen people' of YHWH, or whatever clan god you want to choose...), as everybody knows.
Tiresome phrases and (to us moderns) 'silly' words like 'eloheynu' ('OUR clan god') and 'eloheyekhah' ('YOUR clan god') which occur so many hundreds
of times in the mangled texts of the Hebrew scriptures over and over and oveer again, make them anything but 'Universal' - but on the other hand,
positively 'clannish', wouldn't you agree?
Or maybe you have never stepped back from your presuppositions and taken a 'hard look' at your own Weltanschauung.
If you try and defend this clannish notion of making one clan god better than another regional clan god - which is still embedded into the most
ancient traditions of ALL the various modern day Rabinnic 'Judaeisms' out there in the wild to-day - from the ultra right wing extermist anti-goyim
murderers (e.g. the deluded racist followers of Meir Kahane -May-his-Bones-be-Dust-) out there and try and paste a 'goyim-friendly' or 'universalist
face' on it, you are not only trying to delude the goyim...you are also deluding yourself.
It just does not wash.
I want you to really try and think hard about these matters. From your silly post back to me, you haven't a clue about what you are talking about.
edit on 21-5-2011 by Sigismundus because: My keyboard has a Tendenz to abbreviate highly complex ideas into simplistic jargon