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Who lived in North America originally?

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posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by St Udio
so, could ? lets say Cherokee...have been the survivors (ala Roanoke Island counter-part) of a safari-vacation party of humanity...way, way, way,
back in the distant (30,000 BCE) past....voyagers from, lets say India or
asia minor....which itself was near the 'oceania' of today


Possibly... across the Bering land bridge. There's no real artifact "trail" that seems to lead to this. We can trace the American Indians back to the Siberian peninsula some 20,000 years ago or so. It's possible that they migrated upward from Asia/India/Middle East.

But at this point there's no definite link.




posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 02:19 PM
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BYRD, ERASE THAT SIBERIAN PENIN. NONSENSE FROM YOUR MEMORY; THEY ARE FROM THE MIDDLES EAST, FROM THE LAND OF ISRAEL. THEY WERE OCCUPANTS OF THE NORTHERN KINGDOM WHEN THEY, AND THE OTHER NINE TRIBES WERE CARRIED AWAY CAPTIVES BY THE ASSYRIAN KING SHALMANASAR, OUR GOD SHOWED THEM HOW TO COME TO A LAND WHERE MAN NEVER DWELT BEFORE CALLED ARSARETH, TRANSLATING NEW FOUNDLAND, WHICH IS THE AMERICAS.



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by St Udio
so, could ? lets say Cherokee...have been the survivors (ala Roanoke Island counter-part) of a safari-vacation party of humanity...way, way, way,
back in the distant (30,000 BCE) past....voyagers from, lets say India or
asia minor....which itself was near the 'oceania' of today


Possibly... across the Bering land bridge. There's no real artifact "trail" that seems to lead to this. We can trace the American Indians back to the Siberian peninsula some 20,000 years ago or so. It's possible that they migrated upward from Asia/India/Middle East.

But at this point there's no definite link.




then here is the dividing line

you, as scientific researcher
myself, as fantasy dreamer

i perfer the stories, myths of traditions as a basis from which to 'journey' more wider & deeper

like the Cherokee (a name given to the perferred people) being a ciivilized culture when around them were other native stoneage americans...they had traveled from another land that 'sank'(here again an 'Atlantis' label foisted upon their peoples' story)

also the east Indian stories, myths, tales, Vedas...having flying vehicles
for men...traveling to the island(western hemisphere?)...now that would
have a impact on the accepted migration by lug-&-tug in crude rafts & boats
that is accepted as the 'correct' history!

well, if anyone wants to prove or disprove the ancient civilization meme-
then they are on the road to 'Deny Ignorance'

Labas !



posted on Nov, 4 2004 @ 10:24 PM
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Originally posted by St Udio
i perfer the stories, myths of traditions as a basis from which to 'journey' more wider & deeper

like the Cherokee (a name given to the perferred people) being a ciivilized culture when around them were other native stoneage americans


But, that's not what THEIR beliefs say. You can certainly believe what you like, but it's not what history or what the cultural beliefs say (they say nothing about "other primitive tribes."


also the east Indian stories, myths, tales, Vedas...having flying vehicles for men ...traveling to the island(western hemisphere?)...now that wouldhave a impact on the accepted migration by lug-&-tug in crude rafts & boatsthat is accepted as the 'correct' history!


Actually, if you read through the Vedas carefully, you'll see that men didn't have them. In fact, it was gods and demons levitating temple roofs. And the temple roofs didn't carry anything other than the single demon.

The "spacecraft/aircraft" bit is something written relatively recently after the UFO craze began. It was not an ancient belief or even an old belief -- it's very modern folklore.



posted on Nov, 5 2004 @ 07:33 AM
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I know its all mooved along since then but if humans only migrated out of Africa only 100,000 years ago then the only explanation for Javaman approx 2 million y.o. and Peking man approx 2 million y.o. is that they were aliens. Who were the original inhabitants in the Americas, well from my research it seems to be the Japaneese as The oldest human remains found in the Americas has a closer resemblance to the Japanees than any other living humans



posted on Nov, 5 2004 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by Dan West
I know its all mooved along since then but if humans only migrated out of Africa only 100,000 years ago then the only explanation for Javaman approx 2 million y.o. and Peking man approx 2 million y.o. is that they were aliens.

You're missing a few zeroes there and mixing up some of the species. Homo sapiens has only been around for 100,000 - 200,000 years:
anthro.palomar.edu...

Humans (homo erectus, homo neanderthalis, homo florienesis, homo eregaster, etc) have been around for several million years.

"Peking man" and "Java man" are both homo erectus:
www.clarifyingchristianity.com...



Who were the original inhabitants in the Americas, well from my research it seems to be the Japaneese as The oldest human remains found in the Americas has a closer resemblance to the Japanees than any other living humans

The Japanese have MUCH flatter faces and smaller noses and different features than American Indians do. However, the oldest skeleton belongs to "Arlington woman" who lived in the area where the Chumash now live
www.oceansonline.com... (and they certainly don't look Japanese!) and the second oldest who comes to mind is the "Kennewick Man" who had Caucasian features.



posted on Nov, 5 2004 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by prevx
I'm not talking about the Native Americans, since the accepted theory is that they crossed into N. America by the Bering Strait.


As told by Chief John Ross;

The word 'Keetoowah' is the name my people have always called themselves.The word Cherokee has no meaning in the language of my people.It is derived from a Muscogan Language, and its meaning is 'inhabitant of the cave country'. The word 'Keetoowah means 'Principal People'.

The following legend of the Keetoowah people, which dates back to the beginning of time, has been passed orally by each generation.

Upon the creation of the Keetoowah people, the Creator gave them mysterious powers and placed them in large settlement on an island in the (Atlantic) ocean. There were other tribes on the island which attacked the Keetoowah people. Another tribe watched the fierce fighting from a mountain top. The leader of the tribe watched the valley ascend toward heaven. The smoke divided into three paths midway in the ascention an eagle was seen holding three arrows in its claws. The leader asked his warriors if the smoke and eagle were visible to them and they replied they were. The tribal leader then told his warriors not to attack the Keetoowah people because they were the Creator's people, and they were very powerful. The tribe came down from the mountain and made friends with the Keetoowah people.

In later years, some of the medicine men of the tribe became selfish and
used their powers to harm their own people. The Creator gave the powers
to the medicine men to be used in the best interest of the people.
Other tribal members prayed to the Creator for direction and the Creator
heard their prayers. The instruction was to move their fire away from the island and the medicine men. After the departure, the island sank
into the ocean.


Plato recounts: stories told to SOLON by the Egyptians...that, after the destruction of Atlantis...a 1,000 years later the 1st Egyptian cities were built.

The people migrated north and settled in the southeastern part of what is now the United States. Many years later, again the medicine men became selfish and committed crimes against their own tribal members. The people gathered to discuss the solution to this problem, and it was decided that seven (7) medicine men, one from each of the seven (7) clans, would would travel to a mountain top and pray. The 7 medicine men went to the mountain top and prayed. Soon a messenger from the Creator appeared and told them the Creator had heard their prayers and had great sympathy for them. The messenger told the medicine men their tribe would be called 'Keetoowah' from that day forward.


the absence of other tribes/peoples or even mentioning indigenous people is not unusual...as this migration concerned the Keetoowah people. The emmigration NORTH as a result of a 'catastrophe'- or an approaching 'catastrophe' is a historical marker of sorts...if you are in the camp of 'South China Sea=flooded Atlantis'...with the Sundra Strait volcano (krakaota), the innundation by glacial melting, combined to make the populations seek safety elseware...?? the NORTH direction does not immediately pinpoint to the Carribbean Sea or Gulf of Mexico or Bimini, but there may be some foundation to the Cayce claims of ancient civilizations & ruins off the SE USA waters!...Google up!

The messenger revealed to them that a "White Ball' would arrive from the east which would be an enemy to the people. The grandchildren of the Keetoowahs would point their feet to the west and great hardships would be placed upon them at the edge of the prarie. Their blood and families would be divided, and the enemy would not respect the Keetoowah people. The messenger revealed that a young warrior would lead the Keetoowah people back to the east. However, if the Keetoowah people choose not to follow the Creator's direction, they would continue further west to a sea of water and disappear forever. The Creator said, 'If the Keetoowah people are destroyed or become extinct, then the end of the world will follow.'

[the Bureau of Indian Affairs, in Washington, DC, gave approval on 23 June 1994...and presently the Keetoowahs have a land base in Oklahoma into Arkansas...also an office in Waldron, Arkansas]

my personal interjections (in blue) are not meant to be hypothesis or conjectures....merely interesting (at least to me) speculations...there is not enough substance in Chief John Ross' account/story to actually generate a research or thesis paper on...but as a starting point i may make inquiries into the animals & mammals common to the asia & american continents, which must have used a land bridge or passageway when the oceans were 100-300 meters lower than today.(i just cant see a hemisphere without any humans until the 12,ooo-20,ooo BCE epoch as a most generous 'window' for Clovis migrations...BTW, i'm not on some kinda mission...)



posted on Nov, 5 2004 @ 07:14 PM
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my personal interjections (in blue) are not meant to be hypothesis or conjectures....merely interesting (at least to me) speculations...there is not enough substance in Chief John Ross' account/story to actually generate a research or thesis paper on...but as a starting point i may make inquiries into the animals & mammals common to the asia & american continents, which must have used a land bridge or passageway when the oceans were 100-300 meters lower than today.


Living? Not many. The mammoths traveled across, bears, reindeer... and we did have the camels, horses, and a number of other animals... all quite extinct.


i just cant see a hemisphere without any humans until the 12,ooo-20,ooo BCE epoch as a most generous 'window' for Clovis migrations...

Would it surprise you that there are some archaeologists who agree?

I don't think that the Chief John Ross story is scientific history, since we do know that there was a time period when there was no agriculture in North American (and Ross claims that they have always lived in villages and had agronomy and a division of labor.) Pottery was a fairly late development (since 1,000 AD.)

But, yes, I believe that this is a True Belief among the people that Ross was living among at that time.

(if that seemed a little qualified, I checked his life and know that he was not full-blooded Cherokee and lived more as a White than as a tribesperson. So I'm curious about how much this affected him.)



posted on Nov, 5 2004 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd I checked his life and know that he was not full-blooded Cherokee and lived more as a White than as a tribesperson.


Oh man that is so wrong. Reminds me of a discussion on blood quantum I had with an Elder. He mentioned Chief Ross, and I said Ross was part Cherokee. The old man said, 'Which part? His little finger, or ear maybe? Hand me that glass of water. And that salt shaker. I'll just put in a little now. You drink it. Its only part salt water.' I didn't drink it, and John Ross was no white man. Blood quantum is an American idea, not native. Oh man that is funny



posted on Nov, 5 2004 @ 11:13 PM
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There is more evidence to suggest that Modern Humans originated in the Middle East (Israel) than Africa oldest specimen 92,000.

Neanderthalis is 500,000 and Florensis 20,000 not several Million

Florensis must have conquered ocean travel to arrive on the isolated island of Flores. And as they died in a volcanic eruption it would be safe to say they were not the first inhabitants but the most unfortunate inhabitants

Australian Aboriginals conquered Ocean Travel currently thought 60,000 years ago

Neither Australia nor Flores has been land locked in to the Asian Continent

It would be naive to think that it took 20,000 to 40,000 years for the Northern Hemisphere to catch up with this mode of transport considering you are sugessting Modern Humans colonised Australia within 30,000 years of the oldest known Modern Human so not only did thay cover half the Globe but discovered a new technology. Aboriginals didnt even use pottery 200 years ago.

The question asked was who was in the North Americas before tha native Americas? As discussed you dont need a land connection to find out what is possible and history shows that Myths and legends contain more fiction than fact as it has to be an interesting storey to stand the test of time. desiphering myths has never and will never be an exact science.

History also shows that when a the new inhabitants of a land arrive they try to wipe out knowledge of their predecessors. You only need to look at the Fate of Native American Indians upon European colonization and the Australian Aboriginals Who when colonist came here, those that wernt killed were attempted to be bread out. They had a breeding programme where they discovered it takes 7 generations to whipe out any aboriginality traits from offspring. This happened within the last 200-300 years by suposed advanced civilization.

History also shows that the new power in a land often take credit for previous glorries. Another question could be did the Native American Indians write the Vedas



posted on Nov, 6 2004 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by Dan West

History also shows that the new power in a land often take credit for previous glorries. Another question could be did the Native American Indians write the Vedas



Creation is described by a Hindu this way, "Dissatisfied with solitude Brahma feels a desire to create worlds, then he sinks again into apethetic happiness while the volition his desire created, becomes an active principle called Maya or illusion; by this the Universe is formed without exertion on the part of Brahma who is like one asleep." This is the doctrine of Emanation.

The later writings, The Puranas, The Shaster and Institutes of Menu contain the Hindu system of social civil and religious duty. It is the oldest code extant, unless the Mosaic is excepted. The Hindus say that it was given in the early ages to a child of the sun, who escaped from a great deluge and reigned over all the world. This person Menu Satyavatra, had three sons, Sherma, Charma, and Iyapiti. (Possibly Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.) The story of the drunkenness of the king, which is called the act of destiny, the reprehensible conduct of Charma and the curse that followed. (Noah became intoxicated by accident and Ham laughed at his father's nakedness and Noah cursed Ham's son Canaan's line.)

Isn't there a river in South America called , Puranas?


Then there's the Abydos Teblet of Seti I of the line of Kings

The twentieth pharaoh is named Nofru or Snefru (Naoh). The twenty-first pharaoh is named Chamu or Chufu or Khufu (Ham).



posted on Nov, 7 2004 @ 07:47 AM
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1111

Perhaps, the world of science or anthropology or archeology, is looking
for signs (evidence) that will not be there...
it seems the menkinds & cultures, which must have lived & prospered
in the western hemisphere...actually were the tenders of the earth...

living in accordance with nature (Gaia, popularly) in a garden of eden
as-it-were. being nomadic, men did not need to make pottery or cultivate crops (these are signs of advancement?) No these are the
resultant needs/requirements of a lifestyle--from rejecting and being evicted from eden!
graves/tombes/bones etc....that whole structure of elevating man to a
false immortality...is also forged from mans expulsion from an edenic land-
when you give your spirit and flesh/bone body back to the Creator...there
is no need to preserve bones or mummify remains...just leave the birds &
worms & bacterias gain life at your passing.
there is no need to outline all the elements which show how the early
western hemisphere humans differed from us today...and why they left no
trail of technology or scaring/raping the earth for profit & gain...all the
artifacts that science, archeology, would recognise.
these cultures were indeed living in the golden age of mankind...
until the time....our breed of civilization & history destroyed them, bit-by-bit

^L^



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Chakotay

Originally posted by Byrd I checked his life and know that he was not full-blooded Cherokee and lived more as a White than as a tribesperson.


Oh man that is so wrong. Reminds me of a discussion on blood quantum I had with an Elder. He mentioned Chief Ross, and I said Ross was part Cherokee. The old man said, 'Which part? His little finger, or ear maybe? Hand me that glass of water. And that salt shaker. I'll just put in a little now. You drink it. Its only part salt water.' I didn't drink it, and John Ross was no white man. Blood quantum is an American idea, not native. Oh man that is funny


Actually, what I was concerned about/curious about is the culture. WAS he raised in the culture/tribe? I honestly don't know, but I do know that if he wasn't rasied on the lands then his access to some things may be less. I haven't read anything about the differences in the cultures there, but there IS a significant difference in someone living as an "Indian agent" in charge of the tribe on behalf of another government and a tribesmember.

And I thought that the tribes had some restrictions on who they would claim as blood relatives after a gazillion people showed up and applied for programs on the grounds that they were Indian, too... much to the harm of the ones who lived on the reservations.



posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by St Udio
living in accordance with nature (Gaia, popularly) in a garden of eden
as-it-were. being nomadic, men did not need to make pottery or cultivate crops (these are signs of advancement?) No these are the
resultant needs/requirements of a lifestyle--from rejecting and being evicted from eden!


But we find traces of this kind of human being. The Fitch-Dahlen site that I'm working on is one of those... nomadic peoples, living by huntering and gathering, no pottery. We can even get a good estimate of when they were there (how many hundreds of years ago) by a number of methods.

We find the firepits where they cooked meat, the places where they prepared paints and medicines and so on and so forth. They didn't vanish as completely as you might think.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by St Udio
living in accordance with nature (Gaia, popularly) in a garden of eden
as-it-were. being nomadic, men did not need to make pottery or cultivate crops (these are signs of advancement?) No these are the
resultant needs/requirements of a lifestyle--from rejecting and being evicted from eden!


But we find traces of this kind of human being. The Fitch-Dahlen site that I'm working on is one of those... nomadic peoples, living by huntering and gathering, no pottery. We can even get a good estimate of when they were there (how many hundreds of years ago) by a number of methods.

We find the firepits where they cooked meat, the places where they prepared paints and medicines and so on and so forth. They didn't vanish as completely as you might think.


alas Byrd, these are findings of recent origin...not of Antiquity !
--
i'm of the mind that, deliberately or inadvertently?(sp) the populations
of the 'new world' left no record...and only by accident will youse scientists happen upon 'evidence'

-consider- a human bone pile is found in a cave, dated at ~70,ooo BCE,
...the accepted reasoning would be, small family groups migrated here, they lived in caves, yadda yadda...
- - what if that bone pile was actually a 'nutty' person, which fled from the
tribe community, lived for a time as a hermit, then perished...

the accepted theory/rational would go 'poof'....

...iknow. i know....the scientific community isn't based on 'what ifs'

foundation of premis...it is a universal concept, that mankind had a
beginning in a edenic world...then (entropy) fell into chaos and the
remnants of 'people' had to fashion a world out of hardship &
struggle,,,,, so there is a fuzzy arena on which to base the proposition
that there were ancient civilizations fluorishing on the western hemisphere
way before columbus, spain, vikings, clovis, kennewicks, retreat of
glaciers. etc

[edit on 9-11-2004 by St Udio]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by Byrd
WAS he raised in the culture/tribe? I honestly don't know, but I do know that if he wasn't rasied on the lands then his access to some things may be less. I haven't read anything about the differences in the cultures there, but there IS a significant difference in someone living as an "Indian agent" in charge of the tribe on behalf of another government and a tribesmember.


John Ross was raised in the Old Cherokee Nation, and was immersed in the culture from a young age. Our ancestors (granpas) pass down the following story. "When John Ross was a small boy he was apt to wander the countryside and spend his time in small-boy exploits such as hunting and fishing and playing with his friends. The Chiefs came into the Town's Council House one day (this being a circular structure of adobe and thatch) and found a small boy in buckskins tending the fire. He was very polite, and did a fine job of tending the fire in the old way. He was unusual, though, for he did not look like a white man or an Indian. When asked his name, the young lad replied 'I am Gu-Wis-Gu-Wi, I have always been Gu-Wis-Gu-Wi, and I am still the same Gu-Wis-Gu-Wi.' He said this as a matter of fact and not with any kind of pride. At that time the people began to watch him and his actions, and knew that he was destined to become Chief. As he grew, he took a wife of the People, Gi-gu-i, a Bird Clan Woman who was of traditional upbringing and a fine cook. She was quite patient with him, knowing before marriage that he was to be a Chief of both Peace and War, a man bridging two worlds, that he might save his People, the Cherokees, from annihilation."

Now I grew up in some of those woods. It has an effect on you, son. If your blood is a pullin' at ya and you need to get out there, go visit the folks at WSDP, they need some help right now and you'll find all the answers to your questions.

Now is that Above Top Secret, or what?


[edit on 9-11-2004 by Chakotay]



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by St Udio
alas Byrd, these are findings of recent origin...not of Antiquity !
-
-consider- a human bone pile is found in a cave, dated at ~70,ooo BCE,
...the accepted reasoning would be, small family groups migrated here, they lived in caves, yadda yadda...


To an archaeologist, one bone pile does NOT a civilization make... or anything else. You're assuming things about how archaeologists think that aren't true. The archaeologist would simply say that it's a skeleton and if there's no other traces of other human habitation around, they would have NO conclusions about this.

This has been drilled into my brain by my prof this year. You can't say a lot of things about finds, though you might like to speculate. Archaeology deals only in fact.


foundation of premis...it is a universal concept, that mankind had a
beginning in a edenic world...then (entropy) fell into chaos and the
remnants of 'people' had to fashion a world out of hardship &
struggle


This kind of civilization would leave traces, though. Magnetometer surveys and other methods show when the ground has had buildings sitting on it (there's soil changes where humans live.)


,,,,, so there is a fuzzy arena on which to base the proposition
that there were ancient civilizations fluorishing on the western hemisphere
way before columbus, spain, vikings, clovis, kennewicks, retreat of
glaciers. etc


...and your proof of this is... what?



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by ChakotayJohn Ross was raised in the Old Cherokee Nation, and was immersed in the culture from a young age. Our ancestors (granpas) pass down the following story. "When John Ross was a small boy he was apt to wander the countryside and spend his time in small-boy exploits such as hunting and fishing and playing with his friends.


Thanks for the info! I've learned enough in class to be serious about checking out claims. I'll go check the website out... appreciate it.



posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:27 PM
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I did not take the time to read through all of the posts, but wanted to interject quickly while I had the time my point of view of where they came from.

I am a Christian...LDS to be exact. Our Book of Mormon explains who the North American people were and how they got here.

Now, I'm not telling you this, so we can get into "mormon" bashing, but as a point of interest on where they came from. The Book of Mormon is about God's dealings with His people here on the American Continent and His visit to them after his death and resurrection.

I don't believe that God only would talk with the House of Judah and not speak to any one else and let the rest of the population in a quandry as to who their creator was. This Book testifies with Bible that Jesus is the Christ.

If your curious, read the book it can't hurt you to be informed.
(www.lds.org)




posted on Nov, 9 2004 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by Pepper
Our Book of Mormon explains who the North American people were and how they got here.


Fascinating. Now from an objective viewpoint, the Book of Mormon is a product of the memory of Joseph Smith. He heard a lot of legends as a boy, European and Native. What fascinates me is his obvious exposure to legends of the previous civilization (moundbuilders), his insistance that Celstial Beings (God) dwell on the Planet Kolob around another star and interact with the moundbuilders and we their descendants, and his discovery of these records on gold plates- DVD's?- in an 'archaeological' dig. Either this guy was exposed to some way out myths (remember I find Cherokee legends hard to swallow, Byrd I am a scientist by training like you) that have a basis in fact, OR- both Smith and our Ancestors rival L. Ron Hubbard in science-fiction writing ability. I am worried it is a little of both, that our ancestors elaborated on a true story of alien origins or contact. The discovery of the Sumerian records- Zechariah Sitchin notwithstanding- only reinforce my unease.

I enjoy talking with Mormon missionaries. You can always spot them, they come in pairs and are dressed like Pilot and Co-Pilot. Must be an Angelic tradition


And the original plural marriage stuff? Heh. Good stuff, that.

With respect for JS, Mormonism, and you. Good post!

Question: if these legends have a basis in fact- who were these technological visitors? Our ancestors? Time travellers from the future? Or aliens?

[edit on 9-11-2004 by Chakotay]




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