Who lived in North America originally?, page 3
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reply posted on 19-10-2004 @ 11:23 AM by Byrd
Originally posted by Zipdot
Dinosaurs, also, walked back and forth over the land bridge.
www.adn.com...


Errr... yes... and no. They did during the times that the continents were connected and during times when the sea level was low. But not since the late Cretaceous era.


reply posted on 28-10-2004 @ 03:55 PM by St Udio
Originally posted by Chakotay
Cherokee digs date back to 20,000 BCE and our society has always been urban and pyramid-oriented. We appear, fully civilized, and remained that way until the Europeans arrived.


[[ Thank you Chakotay ]]

this post is attempted linkage theory, might just get booed-down...whatever-->>

There is a real tenuous thread that connects the India Vedics and
western hemisphere humanity...(likely candidate Cherokee)

see the story which includes the land called 'Lanka'
and how the only remedy for healing a wounded L. was back in Himalayas...so they FLEW there, for time was of the essence!!!
...........................

? now you ask...why is there no evidence or bones or ruins of these 'indian-vedas?

> i reply...even today, is it not customary?? that a traveler, vacationer or safari hunter...upon their unfortunate demise...are shipped home, for a proper burial-or-creamation?
.........................

#- check out the other 6 stories, myths, epics on the site

##- consider the indian distant past treasure trove of stories->> as feasable and not just outrageous fantasy

caio



[edit on 28-10-2004 by St Udio]


reply posted on 28-10-2004 @ 04:21 PM by Chakotay
Originally posted by St Udio
? now you ask...why is there no evidence or bones or ruins of these 'indian-vedas?


Udio, I have thought about this a lot. I am a helicopter pilot, and when I set my ultrahightech machine down on some lonely hilltop, that hilltop is the highest tech spot in the wilderness. For a moment. Then I am gone, and there is not one trace left behind of my presence. I spent some time at the Texas Air Museum years ago, and on display was a Sikorsky navy helicopter from the fifties. From electrogalvanic corrosion at sea, when you touched it, it would literally crumble into dust. It will be gone without a trace in a matter of centuries. Continental shelves are subducted and remelted, catastrophic impacts and tectonic events occur, and the early civilizations were all located in riverine areas. If our ancestors migrated here from space, imagine the equipment limitations! Could't carry many bulldozers as carry-on luggage. The writer Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote a series of books called Darkover about a crash-landed colony. I know that when my helicopter goes down in the mountains, my survival training was all about going caveman until rescued. The Vedas also talk about nuclear war, as Robert Oppenheimer pointed out. Makes you wonder if Columbus didn't know what he was talking about when he called us 'Indians'- I think he had studied antediluvian writings and maps.

Back to topic, I don't think its as important who was first, so much as it is important that we all begin to live together as brothers.


reply posted on 28-10-2004 @ 11:22 PM by The Vagabond
Originally posted by Chakotay
Makes you wonder if Columbus didn't know what he was talking about when he called us 'Indians'- I think he had studied antediluvian writings and maps.


I remember reading somewhere that Columbus did have contact with Piri Reis. (Piri Reis was a turkish admiral who mapped land on the west side of the atlantic ocean before 1492, saying he had compiled his map from other, much older maps in the Library of Constantinople.) Since I bring up Piri Reis let me clear up some misconceptions (that is to say- some ignorant statements often made by people who haven't downloaded the map for themselves).
1. The Piri Reis Map doesn't show an ice-free antarctica.
2. The Piri Reis Map doesn't show 50 terrain features of Antarctica which were only rediscovered in the 1950s.
3. The Piri Reis Map is not so accurate that the US Air Force used it to correct their own maps- actually it depicts the Amazon twice and has the shape and proportions of Antarctica a little bit off.
4. The Piri Reis Map only shows a little bit of the western hemisphere- almost none really.
5. There is no record of which maps Piri Reis copied, so the idea that those maps were from the time of Alexander the Great is just a guess.
6. Nothing about this map suggests the use of Aerial surveying techniques or advanced mathematics ability. It's just a slightly inaccurate map with a few things on it that we didn't know anyone knew about at that time.
7. The map may or may not be legitimate. It was discovered in the Library of Congress by a writer named Charles Hapgood who, although he did interest Einstein with some of this ideas, ended up being dead wrong. I have not been able to discover any history of this map prior to its appearance in the library in this century- it could be fake.

It is possible that Columbus knew what he was getting into. His insistence that the Earth was only 1/3 the size was generally known to be, and that he could therefore reach India by sailing West, was completely irrational. It is also telling that he demanded before leaving that he be made viceroy of any newly discovered lands.
That being said, to suggest that Columbus knew of the Asian origins of the people in the Americas is the least likely possibility. He could have really thought he was in the Indies. I have only read this in George Carlin's book "Brain Droppings" so don't take it for gospel, but supposedly Columbus wrote of them as "a people in God". Spanish wasn't his first language and of course penmanship is a messy art, so it wouldn't be hard for En Dios to become InDios and then Indios, especially since he had said to begin with that he was going to India.


reply posted on 30-10-2004 @ 08:18 AM by Byrd
Originally posted by Chakotay
We have tribal origin stories, and archaeological evidence. Our tribal origin story is hard to swallow (Tsalagi): 'In the long ago, the People From the Stars came to Elohimona, the Land of Atlantis. They carried with them a crystal message of peace and abundance for all mankind.' The Cherokees say Elohimona is Atlan, the center of the American continents. Our Elders teach that humans spread out over the Earth from there to all continents, then returned many generations later having forgot their point of origin. Louis Leaky had doubts on African origins before his death, and was conducting digs in North America, some of which yielded tools with dates he was convinced predated his African finds. In any case, Cherokee digs date back to 20,000 BCE and our society has always been urban and pyramid-oriented. We appear, fully civilized, and remained that way until the Europeans arrived.


I'll disagree with that, brother, since I'm also researching our people from the science end of the spectrum.

(for the rest of you, the Cherokee are the southernmost group of the Iriquoian language speakers, who split off from the main group about 4,000 years ago. Their culture is similar to the northeast cultures. One of the "civilized tribes", they are the most enduring and among the Native American natins, they were one of the more technologically progressive.)

No substantiated Cherokee pre-Clovis material has been found (that I'm aware of) and the Cherokees as a linguistic group is an outgrowth of a still older language. Cherokees had a magnificent civilization and had many innovative people, but the tribe hasn't existed since the beginnings of time.

There are only a scattering of pre-Clovis (before 13,000 BC) sites; the Gault site in Texas is one and there's another in the Carolinas/Georgia. Niether has evidence of any earthworks associated with it.

The material from 20,000 years is not associated with any modern culture (that would be like trying to associate the cave drawings at Lascaux, France with, say, the modern culture here in Texas.)

And, as an anthropology student who's studied the Cherokee just a bit, I've got to say that I haven't heard any tribal stories that mention Atlantis at all. My professor, Dr. Ann T. Jordan, a noted Native American Cultures scholar ( www.amazon.com... ) has been giving us quite a lot of detail on the cultures, and I'm sure that if there was an "Atlantis connection" (I can hear her laugh about that one!) she would have mentioned it before when she did the extended scetion on the Cherokee and Iriquois.


I'll be honest -- the "Atlantis" stuff sounds like some of the VERY offensive (to Native Americans) "new age nonsense" that has been going around since the 1970's. Native Americans get very angry over such theft and reworking of their cultural materials, for it takes away from their real teachings and real practices. From what I know of the situation, I think that the tribe itself would be VERY annoyed at this "Atlantis" thing.

You could always contact the tribe and ask them directly:
www.cherokee.org...



VERY good page with an overview of the Cherokee myths and culture is here (matching Dr. Jordan's material, the 500 Nations (aired recently) material, etc, etc) :
philtar.ucsm.ac.uk...


reply posted on 30-10-2004 @ 05:48 PM by Chakotay
Originally posted by Byrd
My professor, Dr. Ann T. Jordan, a noted Native American Cultures scholar ( www.amazon.com... ) has been giving us quite a lot of detail on the cultures, and I'm sure that if there was an "Atlantis connection" (I can hear her laugh about that one!) she would have mentioned it before when she did the extended scetion on the Cherokee and Iriquois.


I'll be honest -- the "Atlantis" stuff sounds like some of the VERY offensive (to Native Americans) "new age nonsense" that has been going around since the 1970's. Native Americans get very angry over such theft and reworking of their cultural materials, for it takes away from their real teachings and real practices. From what I know of the situation, I think that the tribe itself would be VERY annoyed at this "Atlantis" thing.


Byrd, my brother, ask Dr. Jordan one simple question: does she know everything there is to know about Cherokee origins. If she answers no, then she is intellectually honest. I stated our origin story is hard to swallow. It is our myth, and is not part of the federally-recognized tribal gov't structure but rather a teaching of the Elders. I would not share it in public except that it is widely published now. I am sure you are being honest, but so am I. The tribal gov't now admits that Sequoyah resettled in Mexico while investigating these origin stories. The roots of the words Atlantis, Atlan, Aztlan and so on in the original tribal languages point to an original name for the continents common to both sides of the Atl-antic. I am referring to serious inquiry, not New Ager fantasies. We keep an open mind, and do not become angry when studying origins. Anger is a characteristic of debate among the Yo Ne Ga people, not Tsalagi. I do not know if the stories are true; I find them interesting if unsubstatiated. Please support your statement that Tsalagi do not have their origins at the beginning of time. A search for the variations of the root words of Cherokee shows distribution worldwide throughout time, and we do not define ourselves geographically within the limits set by Yo Ne Ga.

I think the primary reason the dominant culture spends so much money and effort erasing our origins is that in fact there are no borders; all the People of the Americas are One People; and that as the original inhabitants we have a clear claim of genocide and prior title against the newcomers. Our sailing vessels girdled the Earth long before Columbus, but left little trace for we came as friends. If you are Native, fight for sovereignty. What the Tribe is very annoyed at is the taking of Tennessee, Georgia, the Carolinas, Alabama, and all the other lands at the point of a gun. One of my female ancestors died at the point of that gun during the Removal, and I have visited her grave to leave cedar and tobacco. I have spoken enough.

[edit on 30-10-2004 by Chakotay]


reply posted on 30-10-2004 @ 10:37 PM by Byrd
Originally posted by Chakotay
Byrd, my brother, ask Dr. Jordan one simple question: does she know everything there is to know about Cherokee origins.


She never brags on herself, but I have found out from other sources that she is honored and respected by the tribes and that when she says something, it's true. She's an invitee to sweat lodge ceremonies, to Sun Dances, and other religious activities. I suspect she's been adopted into a tribe but she is not one who would say this and I haven't gone prying.

I would say she would not claim that.

It is our myth, and is not part of the federally-recognized tribal gov't structure but rather a teaching of the Elders. I would not share it in public except that it is widely published now.

References?


The tribal gov't now admits that Sequoyah resettled in Mexico while investigating these origin stories.

Indeed he did, but there's a slight misconception in those words.

At the time of his death, the territory of Mexico extended far into what is now the United States. And Sequoyah did indeed go to find another reportedly "lost" branch of the Cherokee in what was Mexico then.

It's now Texas. He died in East Texas, near the place where my daughter lives (Tyler) and there's plenty of documentation on this (numerous tribal and other sources but this is the most concise: www.tulsalibrary.org... ) He apparently was looking for Chief Bowles' band: www.smokymountainnews.com...

I admit I don't have a complete biography on him; this is merely material that matches other material with good provenance that was presented to me.



The roots of the words Atlantis, Atlan, Aztlan and so on in the original tribal languages point to an original name for the continents common to both sides of the Atl-antic.

Erm... well... no.

You see, if it was the same root language then it would have the same root references. The words are obviously UNrelated to Cherokee (as a simple glance through any Cherokee dictionary will show) and the meaning of the words are quite different. "Aztla" root is Incan (not the oldest of the languages) and refers to herons ("Aztlan" meant "the place of the herons") while "Atlantis" refers to "The Sea of Atlas" and is Greek.

Reference here for the rest of youse guys:

From: www.indians.org...
Aztlan is the mythical place of origin of the Aztec peoples. In their language (Nahuatl), the roots of Aztlan are the two words:

aztatl - tlan(tli)

meaning "heron" and "place of," respectively. 'Tlantli' proper means tooth, and as a characteristic of a good tooth is that it is firmly rooted in place, and does not move, the prefix of this word is commonly used in Nahuatl to denote settlements, or place names,


I will spare everyone the lecture on the origins of the Aztecs (everyone heave a sigh of relief now!) except to note that this is a good page on their history and they are a fairly modern group: www.indians.org...


Please support your statement that Tsalagi do not have their origins at the beginning of time.


Lemme 'splain the anthropological view here:

A people's true beliefs are considered to be a "true belief." So yes, I believe that the Tsalagi have an origin story that they believe is true and is part of what makes them what they are... as other folk and other tribes have their own true beliefs in their origin stories.

For the Hawai'ians, Maui fished the islands out of the sea with his fishing gear. This is a true belief to them, and it is part of their culture. www.paradisemaui.com...

It makes them true on the scale of "do we believe this and does it have a place in our culture."

This does not make these beliefs science. For example, it can be pretty conclusively demonstrated that the Hawaiian islands are volcanic and grew over milennia and not instant fish hook-ic in origin.


A search for the variations of the root words of Cherokee shows distribution worldwide throughout time, and we do not define ourselves geographically within the limits set by Yo Ne Ga.

I can accept it as a belief/religious teaching, but I don't find any evidence of it as science.

What science shows is that it is a language and culture that developed sometime in the last 8,000 years from an older Iriquoian culture, and that the culture and technology of the "Five Civilized Tribes" put them light-years ahead of the other Native Americans.

However, the language isn't related to (say) Ancient Egyptian. That might be a religious belief (and I'd find it hard to accept as anything but a modern belief since the People weren't aware of other countries before other countries landed on them,) but as a scientific idea, it's easily knocked over by a simple study of linguistics. The roots aren't the same, and the grammar structure isn't the same. Heck, the phonemes aren't the same!

All the tests of "language relatedness" flunk promptly.



reply posted on 31-10-2004 @ 01:38 AM by Chakotay
Originally posted by Byrd
A people's true beliefs are considered to be a "true belief." So yes, I believe that the Tsalagi have an origin story that they believe is true and is part of what makes them what they are... as other folk and other tribes have their own true beliefs in their origin stories.


Thank you my brother.

I think you will find interesting this link on Sequoyah, and this link from the Cherokee National Government on him. The following two public links refer to the Sky People and Atlantis.

What is important is, that our lives go back to the beginning here, as early as that beginning was, whatever our ancestors were called. "We are the old people, we are the new people, we are the same people stronger than before". We- all Original Americans- are One. It is a matter of spirit, of blood, of history, of justice. The divisions that haunt us now with borders, governments, and hate weaken America. Together, we can build something grand. That tiniest drop of Native blood, from whatever tribe, will call to your heart for an end to hate. For all humans are one.

It was a good day today for me, and I hope for all of you.


[edit on 31-10-2004 by Chakotay]


reply posted on 31-10-2004 @ 08:03 PM by Byrd
Originally posted by Chakotay
I think you will find interesting this link on Sequoyah, and this link from the Cherokee National Government on him. The following two public links refer to the Sky People and Atlantis.


Many thanks for the links! I did find them quite interesting. I was familar with that particular Sky People legend though I think it's wrong to link it to Atlantis. And I see the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which mentions the mystical belief that the Indians came from Atlantis, but this was actually something developed from the AMORC (Edgar Cayce) or the Golden Dawn.

In my studies I haven't seen any indication that Atlantis is anything other than a modern Euro-American belief that has been grafted onto the American Indian cultures. In recent times, this grafted belief has been used as "proof" that Atlantis exists -- a further abuse of Native American culture and traditions.


reply posted on 1-11-2004 @ 10:47 AM by St Udio
Originally posted by Byrd
Originally posted by Chakotay
I think you will find interesting this link on Sequoyah, and this link from the Cherokee National Government on him. The following two public links refer to the Sky People and Atlantis.


Many thanks for the links! I did find them quite interesting. I was familar with that particular Sky People legend though I think it's wrong to link it to Atlantis. And I see the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia, which mentions the mystical belief that the Indians came from Atlantis, but this was actually something developed from the AMORC (Edgar Cayce) or the Golden Dawn.

In my studies I haven't seen any indication that Atlantis is anything other than a modern Euro-American belief that has been grafted onto the American Indian cultures. In recent times, this grafted belief has been used as "proof" that Atlantis exists -- a further abuse of Native American culture and traditions.



All is very interesting & appreciated:

i still hold that 'Atlantis' is a metaphor, rather than a definite, concrete
thing/place....which Plato revived/revisited....
indeed, in modern context, the term Atlantis is a derisive connotation with 'new ager' shambala-feelgood-unity type of aura. too bad

the 'box' which byrd helps to erect...is only as large as popular
academic thought will allow....the 'box' will eventually become larger,
perhaps to include spirit & imagination on an equal par with 'interpeted' evidence and Empirical knowledge. who knows?

??Remember when life at Deep Sea Thermal Vents (metabolizing sulphuric acid) was IMPOSSIBLE ...it did not fit the paradigm of official science!!??

so, could ? lets say Cherokee...have been the survivors (ala Roanoke Island counter-part) of a safari-vacation party of humanity...way, way, way,
back in the distant (30,000 BCE) past....voyagers from, lets say India or
asia minor....which itself was near the 'oceania' of today....which may well
have been the location of the land area associated with Atlantis (pre-interglacial era)

i respect both your positions ( Chakotay , Byrd) but i'm inclined
to be attracted to the concepts with 'soul & spirit' in the mixture.

thank you all for 'tilling the soil' + listing links

4@1$
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