Navy plan to allow same-sex marriage on bases draws opposition

reply to post by Annee

It is an excuse. A legal government excuse - but still an excuse. Any way you look at it - - all you've posted are excuses.

You just seem to be below minimal intelligence necessary to be considered sentient.

So, I'll explain this as completely as possible.

I am not against equal rights.

But this has never been about equality for the administration - or even by the movement, itself. Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell was the Clinton Administration's response to the issue of homosexuals in the military while homosexuality was -not- allowed in the military.

Still tracking with me? "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was an act that made it unlawful for anyone to ask you whether or not you were a homosexual, and similarly, you were not expected or required to indicate whether or not you were a homosexual. In this way - homosexuals could serve in the military so long as they were quiet about it - in a sense.

This was not "equal rights" - nor was it really a step in the "right" direction to having equal rights and status.

However, since then, the rights groups have targeted this move in a kind of single-minded, vehement onslaught without regard for the actual rights issues involved, which center around the federal recognition of marital status (in and out of itself a bit of a constitutional problem) and many other legal rights and issues regarding benefits and authoritative succession. It's the same kind of audacity that allows people to yell "Praise God and Jesus that x law or y person was voted into effect!"

The Ball is rolling forward - - it may slow down - - but it is not going to stop.

And this is where you are so totally off it's not even funny. The ball is not rolling on equal rights. The ball is rolling off the table. Equal rights means a homosexual and a heterosexual have access to the same -relevant- programs through the military, equal pay/benefits status, and equal ability to designate powers of legal and household responsibility in a accident/loss contingency.

That should be the main target of equality. Repealing don't ask-don't tell is like voting a black man president to try and end racism. All that is going to happen is the issue get horribly inflamed by the debates over legal changes to the way the military is allowed to recognize marriage/unions.

It's cutting off your nose to spite your face. Had the laws been changed and addressed prior to repealing DADT, the spectacle it has made would have been it - there would have been a much smoother transition from "No gays allowed!" to "meh."

Now - it is all but guaranteed to become a massive issue in the next several years because of the short-sighted nature of rights organizations and the similarly ignorant administration... or very diabolical administration... I'm not really sure what category to place them in... fools, or deviant masterminds of social engineering.

Equal Rights will happen. When? Who knows. But it will happen.

People, generally, don't want equal rights. They want to be seen as the victim. It's like the [insert ethnic group] art museums, scholarship programs, etc. Even the white supremacists do it - the Nazis try to gain sympathy by claiming the white man is being ganged up on and suppressed by other ethnicities (which are allegedly inferior - even more reason to get upset).

If people wanted equality - they would want as little mention of discriminatory factors as possible in legal documents. Why is a question about my race asked on a job application when it's "equal opportunity" - I thought all that mattered were my merits.

All that comes of this type of short-sighted nonsense is a cycle of retribution, distrust, and hatred.

This repeal wasn't about equal rights. Nor did it establish any kind of "momentum" to that effect. The states still struggle over the issue of homosexual marriages while the federal government still refuses to recognize homosexual marriage.

The administration likely targeted DADT because they knew it was within their ability to repeal it. It is not at all indicative of a trend in the U.S. The national government hasn't even really begun to address the issue - spare for executive jaunts of power on either side of the spectrum. The states are heavily divided - often amongst demographics....

It's like the failure of the anti-racism movements. I am still asked to identify my race on every government paper I fill out - and on most job applications. Private institutions have to maintain certain ethnic demographics to qualify for certain things restricted by the government. We have separate punishments for crimes committed by an individual of one race against an individual of another race.

A complete failure.

This is no different. Nor will it be any different. People, interestingly enough, are quite predictable in such things. Sadly, it means they are doomed to the same mistakes and ignorant acts of self-righteousness.

shiiiieeeetttt.... if two people love eachother and want to get married that is up to them.

Originally posted by mthgs602
All i gottta say is that, same sex marriages, if even at all, will not be happening in the navy for years to come. The foundation of the new rules regarding being homoesexual in the navy are still a bit shaky and arent even in effect yet.

This is an issue that will be talked about for YEARS to come befire any real consideration will be given on the matter.

Late

But it did/is happening now.

Military chaplains now allowed to perform same-sex marriages

Pentagon says ceremonies can take place on or off military property, if permitted by local law .

WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has decided that military chaplains may perform same-sex unions, whether on or off military property.

The ruling announced Friday by the Pentagon's personnel chief follows the historic Sept. 20 repeal of a law that had prohibited gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

reply to post by Annee


That's nice, and all... but it's all a horse and pony show.

They can be married by the base chaplain or by a voodoo priest - the marriage still isn't recognized by the federal government and thus by the military. Most of the benefits and privileges that a married heterosexual couple get will not go toward homosexual married couples.

Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by Annee

 

That's nice, and all... but it's all a horse and pony show.

They can be married by the base chaplain or by a voodoo priest - the marriage still isn't recognized by the federal government and thus by the military. Most of the benefits and privileges that a married heterosexual couple get will not go toward homosexual married couples.

It has happened.

The rest will happen too. It is only a matter of time.

Originally posted by IamAbeliever
Those serving will let it be known how they feel. Sadly enough, there are many "accidents" that take place during training exercises and on the field of battle.

That tired ridiculous veild threat works both ways you know. Loud mouthed opinionated bigots are just as prone to "accidents" as the next person.

love shouldn't even be an issue when your talking about sex in the military. its not allowed. wither it's heterosexual or homosexual its not allowed. so my point is, if you have the wedding on base, wheres the honey moon? either someones gonna break the rules or have the lamest honey moon ever!

I live out side a navy base and know some of the local gay community and they are saying that some guys in the military and most BI in the military will never come out.

Some of these may be outed but many do not trust coming out.

In the summer i go to a hot spring about 120 miles away and have seen many gays that i know are in the military from the number of military bases in the Calif desert.

This has been going on for years and many show up in groups so many gays know who are gay on thee bases.

Originally posted by juggalomma420
love shouldn't even be an issue when your talking about sex in the military. its not allowed. wither it's heterosexual or homosexual its not allowed. so my point is, if you have the wedding on base, wheres the honey moon? either someones gonna break the rules or have the lamest honey moon ever!

Same way heteros have been doing it for years.

Denying gays is the only thing that makes it about sex.

reply to post by Annee

The rest will happen too. It is only a matter of time.

That's not my point.

My point is that it's a half-baked deal that is sold as a full-course solution.

What do you think is going to happen when we have these gay/lesbian/bi/whatever people get married, but they can't get separation allowances or have their BAH/BAS adjusted accordingly to that of heterosexuals? There are also issues with cohabitation - a married gay couple does not qualify for cohabitation on base without running a special request by the base CO.

This is all just going to add fuel to the fire and politicize the issue far more than it should.

Mark my words - "the rest will happen" - amidst a flurry of even more controversial legislation that could simply have been adjusted to match civilian laws on the issue in a much less conflicting manner.

The problem is - the civilians can't even figure this # out.

I have a solution, though. I am going to start collecting e-mail addresses of the self-righteous supporters of this act. Any time I encounter someone in the military complaining about being discriminated against because of their inability to qualify for cohabitation due to their sexual preference (or related issues) - I will simply hand them a list of people who seem to think this was all a great idea and part of some kind of "progress."

For people I find especially annoying on the issue - their phone numbers will be provided (let's not discuss how those will be acquired).

... I'm being a bit silly - but you people aren't the ones who are going to have to put up with it. It will be us in the military who have to hear about "it's not fair!"

When you civilians figure it out, then you can lecture the military on how it should be done. Until then - you really have no ground to stand on.

So when are they going to launch the USN Venus?

2nd line

Originally posted by Aim64C
reply to post by Annee

 

The rest will happen too. It is only a matter of time.

That's not my point.

My point is that it's a half-baked deal that is sold as a full-course solution.

What do you think is going to happen when we have these gay/lesbian/bi/whatever people get married, but they can't get separation allowances or have their BAH/BAS adjusted accordingly to that of heterosexuals? There are also issues with cohabitation - a married gay couple does not qualify for cohabitation on base without running a special request by the base CO.

You mean how are these human beings going to live by archaic man-made rules of ignorance and bigotry?

Well - - they've been doing it all along - - haven't they.

Full equal rights for all military will happen.

Those who support equal rights - - won't have any issues.

Those who have issues with gays - - will never see it as equal rights - - and will have issues with it. Too bad.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not in the service, but my view is that people would do better to get used to gay people having the same rights and privileges that straight people do.

Three words: Laughing out loud. Literally.

Sexual perversions are just that, perversions. It's not a race nor is it a religion or any other form of protected group.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I'm not in the service, but my view is that people would do better to get used to gay people having the same rights and privileges that straight people do.

Three words: Laughing out loud. Literally.

Sexual perversions are just that, perversions. It's not a race nor is it a religion or any other form of protected group.

When people are this ignorant - - they should avoid the specific subject.

People are as they were born. That includes heterosexuals and well as homosexuals.

Bigotry is man-made. Homosexuals are God made.

And the homosexuals are winning the equal rights fight - - - as they should. The future looks much brighter for all humans.

reply to post by Annee

You mean how are these human beings going to live by archaic man-made rules of ignorance and bigotry?

Well - - they've been doing it all along - - haven't they.

No, they haven't. Prior, you couldn't be in an open homosexual relationship. Man made or not, agree with it or not - that was the law/rule.

Now, you can. You can even be married as a homosexual in the military. Except... you might find it hard to be approved for quarters to live together, your pay is not going to see the same adjustments as heterosexual couples (whether or not you have adopted dependents - children).

Full equal rights for all military will happen.

You keep repeating this but don't seem to be intelligent enough to understand that full equal rights do -not- presently exist. Implementing partial equal rights only further inflames the issue without providing a real solution.

As I said - when the civilian world gets their own # together, they can lecture the military about their policies. Until then - I've had enough of your ignorance.

Those who support equal rights - - won't have any issues.

Except for the fact that there are not equal rights. So they are going to have issues with the way things are.

Those who have issues with gays - - will never see it as equal rights - - and will have issues with it. Too bad.

You're a bit confused on this point; someone as seasoned as you should have better command over English. Those who do not support equal rights for homosexuals will have issues with the way things are going. Compare that to your statement to see where you were either confused, or intentionally trying to misdirect (to what ends, I am not sure).

The thing is - no one can be happy with the way things are, right now. Equal rights do not exist, and it could easily be another 20 years before a solution to that is found. Meanwhile, you have an increase in internal conflict over the issue - until a solution is eventually passed into law (amidst even more conflict and debate).

When the whole thing could be avoided, entirely. Leave well-enough alone, and make the military ideal when you actually have a solution to do so.

social rights are a moral matter. i thought the repeal went into effect this past month on the 20th. at first i didn't like it. then i thought about all the homosexual innuendo that doesn't get persecuted in the military and thought it good that if it is repealed gay people can have their own spot in the back of the bus in the military and there would be better oversight of the homosexual rapes that occur in the military.

Originally posted by Aim64C

Full equal rights for all military will happen.

You keep repeating this but don't seem to be intelligent enough to understand that full equal rights do -not- presently exist. Implementing partial equal rights only further inflames the issue without providing a real solution.

Is that why I stated - WILL happen?

Do you follow any gay blogs? How is it you speak for the gays in the military? What is your connection?

I became a gay activist 20+ years ago. I follow issues on a couple of gay blogs.

Activists/legislators were already in place prior to the repeal of DADT - - - to tackle the next step of full equality.

reply to post by Annee

Is that why I stated - WILL happen?

Do you follow any gay blogs? How is it you speak for the gays in the military? What is your connection?

You and I are operating on two completely different tiers.

What we have now is not equal. It has been packaged and labeled as though it is. Before - you were not allowed to admit to being homosexual in the military. This made equality a rather moot point. Now, however, it is allowed. People are going to quickly find that things are not equal, and begin raising issues with it.

To the foolish, this is a good thing.

To the wise, it is a critical error in judgment. The issue was moot, but the premature actions of this administration and congress will lead to a larger conflict in the future over the issues that have not been addressed, presently.

It's called putting the cart before the horse where I am from. Maybe those of you who have evolved beyond the medieval times have a different expression.

I became a gay activist 20+ years ago. I follow issues on a couple of gay blogs.

Good for you. Do you want a cookie, or something?

Activists/legislators were already in place prior to the repeal of DADT - - - to tackle the next step of full equality.

I thought we were for equal rights... now we are for special interests?

Look, sunshine - what happened with the repeal of DADT is what we call "half-assed." I'm all for equal rights - I don't give a damned where you park your boner at the end of the day, so long as any person it may be parked in has given consent. The problem is mostly administrative.

What has been done with the repeal of DADT is make it appear as though it is okay to be homosexual in the military... when you actually look at the fine-print, however, you're not really allowed to be part of a homosexual marriage in the eyes of the federal government (of which, the Military is an extension of). So... really, it's not okay. We're just pretending like it is, and like we've made this huge step toward equality.

To anyone who -honestly- supports equal rights, it should be a slap in the face.

Excuses for why I can't walk outside today.

1. Can't find my shoes.
2. Looks like rain.
3. Favorite sports show on TV.
4. No gas in car.
5. Need to do laundry.

Oh - - I could go on-and-on with excuses - - but I'm out of beer.

It will happen.

reply to post by Annee


Irrelevant.

You are out of beer and need to leave the house to get some. Do you call up your friends and invite them over to watch sports (or play bridge - whatever) before or after you actually have gone to the store to get snacks/drinks/etc?

Sure, "it will happen" - but that's being a pretty poor host to invite people over and not be ready to receive them. "It will happen" doesn't solve the problem of "is not right now."