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"Chemtrail" advocates and believers, which of you will state your hypothesis?

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posted on May, 10 2011 @ 08:36 PM
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"You can not ALL be correct, but you can prove each other is wrong: I can take member "A"'s theory and use it to show member "B" must be wrong, and vice versa."

Despite the OPs ridiculously wrong "logic" and obvious tactics... I have recently changed sides on the chemtrail argument and hope to find some answers. About a month ago over California my wife and I watched a very wide "contrail" that didn't act like a contrail. I've worked for a few airlines in my years and am one of those people who always looks to the skies. I pay attention to what contrails look like and this one last month, and a few since then, are very clearly something different. The non-contrail ("chemtrail" for ease of discussion) stretched across most of the sky, it gradually widened, then further, making it's way across the sky north to south eventually turning into a haze that covered the whole eastern valley. For the next three days we had bizarre overcast and clouds that were far lower than typical, while the expected high temperatures were about 15 degrees lower than predicted by NOAA. This is not proof and I've always challenged "chemmies" because you can't normally look at a trail in the sky and know anything about it. But... after watching that chemtrail cross the sky for an hour and gradually turn into haze, I want to know what's going on!


1. WHO is behind this: I don't know, but the CFR paper certainly shows potential that people are working on it.
Also, Weather Modification, Inc. points out on their website:


‎"Weather Modification, Inc., has been modifying and operating aircraft for cloud seeding and atmospheric research operations since 1961. We maintain and operate a fleet of more than 35 twin-engine aircraft in various configurations that meet the needs of every client."


2. WHAT they are using (ex. - military aircraft, airliners, private planes, rockets, et c.)
See above

3. WHAT substance is being sprayed (ex. - barium, aluminum, sulfur, smoke, chaff, filaments, drugs, pathogens, et c.)
idk

4. HOW they are doing this (ex. - mixed in jet fuel, from tanks, in cloud seeding substances, in rocket fuel, et c.)
cloud seeding, both at cloud top and bottom. Many other theories including reflective particles in the upper atmosphere and HAARP's ability to heat the Ionosphere causing more reflectivity.

5. WHY they are doing it (ex. - to kill people, to poison crops, to hide Nibiru, to alter minds, to change weather, et c.)
Hopefully beneficial? could be any number of reasons.

6. WHERE it is (ex. - US, industrial nations, worldwide, Atlanta, the Midwest, et c.)
worldwide

7. RESULTS that have been documented (ex. - death, poison food, dumb people, warm weather, cold weather, et c.)
I've only seen a few Bills even discuss the idea, some of which were more than likely speculation HR 2977., for example.
We also have a "new" cloud type, Undulatus asperatus, that creates waves in the sky - seems something is now holding particles together as mother nature never before had.




posted on May, 10 2011 @ 08:54 PM
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Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by jdub297

no

it is persistence
in the belief

that men would rather

be wise
than ignorant.

But, Nephophobia is!


How is it persistence in the belief? I analyse the upper air for a living. There's over 70 years of science to back it up. Persistent contrails have been around since the bombing runs in World War 2, there is actual video evidence to back that up. As of yet, you havent even provided any indication that you have any knowledge about basic upper air meteorology, so I fail to see how you can disprove the science behind persistent contrails.


Well, thus far, on this site I haven't seen anyone who actually works with the upper atmosphere for a living (also keeping in mind that this isn't a subject I frequent on here) so while we have you on the line, can you explain what creates the conditions for persistent contrails? Don't misinterpret this as a challenge, I just would like to know and it might help move this discussion in a better direction to have a laymen's explanation of what actually happen's to make a persistent trail of ice crystals up there.

I could just look it up myself (and i likely will at some point when I have the time), but I think it would be valuable to have it up here in the interest of transforming ignorance to knowledge for more people than just I.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by Thermo Klein
"You can not ALL be correct, but you can prove each other is wrong: I can take member "A"'s theory and use it to show member "B" must be wrong, and vice versa."

Despite the OPs ridiculously wrong "logic" and obvious tactics...



What is wrong with the logic??

And hte tactics are obvious because he said exactly what they are!!




I have recently changed sides on the chemtrail argument and hope to find some answers. About a month ago over California my wife and I watched a very wide "contrail" that didn't act like a contrail. I've worked for a few airlines in my years and am one of those people who always looks to the skies. I pay attention to what contrails look like and this one last month, and a few since then, are very clearly something different. The non-contrail ("chemtrail" for ease of discussion) stretched across most of the sky, it gradually widened, then further, making it's way across the sky north to south eventually turning into a haze that covered the whole eastern valley.


so a very persistant contrail, moving with the upper air wind, and expanding - either by nucleation or wind sheer or a combination of both.

Contrails definitely move - that is how they create the "#"'s so feared by many. Tehre are numerous videos of them doing so on YT.....mostly labelled at chemtrails of course.

On page 1 of this thread there is an animation showing a case from satelite imagry - www.abovetopsecret.com...


For the next three days we had bizarre overcast and clouds that were far lower than typical, while the expected high temperatures were about 15 degrees lower than predicted by NOAA.


do you recall the date? I'm sure there will be satellite imagery and weather data to examine to give some measurement to it all.



This is not proof and I've always challenged "chemmies" because you can't normally look at a trail in the sky and know anything about it. But... after watching that chemtrail cross the sky for an hour and gradually turn into haze, I want to know what's going on!


contrails spreading is a well known phenomena.....if not entirely welll understood - see contrailscience.com... for some history of it hapening back decades



1. WHO is behind this: I don't know, but the CFR paper certainly shows potential that people are working on it.
Also, Weather Modification, Inc. points out on their website:


‎"Weather Modification, Inc., has been modifying and operating aircraft for cloud seeding and atmospheric research operations since 1961. We maintain and operate a fleet of more than 35 twin-engine aircraft in various configurations that meet the needs of every client."


cloud seeding doesnt' look anythign like airliner contrails - again there are plenty of YT videos of actual cloud seeding operations yuo can examine.


We also have a "new" cloud type, Undulatus asperatus, that creates waves in the sky - seems something is now holding particles together as mother nature never before had.



It's not a new type of cloud - aas teh article says photos have been taken of it for 30 years or more, and it is not "creating" waves in eth sky - it would be showing them, jsut like otehr couds.

Holding particles together?? Only water...and there seems no reason to suppose that it is any different to how mother nature has always operated - recognising and naming somethign doesnt' mean it didnt' exist before it was named.....cf other clouds that I am going to say definitely existed before humanity came along, let alone before we named them!!

It's just that now we are getting picky about naming every little thing!



edit on 10-5-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:15 PM
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I just joined this community....so hello to all. I have been following research on Chem trails for about 10 yrs, and I live near columbus ohio, and we have days with lots of chem trails and days of none, and Im sure some of this is due to atmospheric conditions, that said, I remember GW Bush stating at some point that we are indeed seeding the atmosphere(in relation to the chem trail issue), it was however very vague as to exactly why, or it may have been just to precipitate rain. Seeding for rain or anything else is exposing the earth and all its inhabitants to all kinds of extraneous particulate pollutants. There are many more theories as to other reasons to spray the earth using military jets. And I have watched many a blue sky day turn cloudy before my eyes due to the chem trails.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:19 PM
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Originally posted by Aloysius the Gaul

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
"You can not ALL be correct, but you can prove each other is wrong: I can take member "A"'s theory and use it to show member "B" must be wrong, and vice versa."

Despite the OPs ridiculously wrong "logic" and obvious tactics...



What is wrong with the logic??

And hte tactics are obvious because he said exactly what they are!!



using two opposite and unproven theories does not disprove something. you could say, merely for example, that the Devil is red, and someone else says the Devil is blue... If the Devil happens to be white you didn't disprove anything by comparing two fallascious arguments.

ok, we disagree on her tactics... I think she's just trying to set up an ambush so she can discredit people who believe in chemtrails. I could be wrong.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


contrails spreading is well known, yes.

A contrail spreading (which I saw coming from behind a plane which looked like an all-white L10-11), floating across the sky for an hour, turning a clear blue sky into a haze that covered a good 10 miles by 20 miles... that is not normal.

I have always been outspoken against chemtrails for many reasons. I have changed my mind recently because I want to know some science behind it. Sometimes ridiculous theories gain in credibility as more information comes into play, this may very well be the situation with chemtrails. We won't know if we stop looking.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:33 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker
 





Film "What in the World..." long ago shown to be a pile of bunk.


LMAO....."a pile of bunk".....really? REALLY? Wow, the levels some will stoop to.......

Weedwhacker, this whole chemtrail thing is gaining momentum. Soon, you will have no arguments that will hold water.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by shenanigans

Well, thus far, on this site I haven't seen anyone who actually works with the upper atmosphere for a living (also keeping in mind that this isn't a subject I frequent on here) so while we have you on the line, can you explain what creates the conditions for persistent contrails? Don't misinterpret this as a challenge, I just would like to know and it might help move this discussion in a better direction to have a laymen's explanation of what actually happen's to make a persistent trail of ice crystals up there.

I could just look it up myself (and i likely will at some point when I have the time), but I think it would be valuable to have it up here in the interest of transforming ignorance to knowledge for more people than just I.


Ok, well if you dont know how a contrail is formed, then I guess thats the first place to start.

They occur, when hot engine exhaust, which we all know is a combustion of hydrocarbon, is emitted into a supercooled environment. The resulting product from the burning of a hydrocarbon is carbon dioxide and water .

At high altitudes, the environment can drop to temperatures far lower than freezing point. When water vapour is introduced into this environment, the water quickly condenses to ice crystals as it passes its saturation or dew point. When a parcel of air reaches dew point, at any height, whether it be at ground level or 35,000 feet in the air, then cloud forms, as the water vapour in the air, condenses to water droplets of ice crystals. This is why contrails, like cirrus clouds, fog etc, are considered in the meteorological world as a cloud type (we actually report it as cirrus as it lies in the high cloud zone, which includes the ice clouds cirrus, cirrocumulus and cirrostratus)

So for a contrail to spread out, we need high winds, which are common at plane crusing altitude, and obviously a saturated environment. We already know that engine exhaust stimulates condensation and assists in a parcel of air reaching its dew point, so combine this with a fairly fast wind speed (fast is about 15 knots plus), and all of a sudden, cloud starts to spread. The introduction of more water vapour into more air parcels, (as the cloud forms), starts to saturate the surrounding environment, thus creating more water or ice nuclei, moving to more areas, and increasing the cloud cover yet again. Its as simple as that.



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:44 PM
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Originally posted by Thermo Klein

A contrail spreading (which I saw coming from behind a plane which looked like an all-white L10-11), floating across the sky for an hour, turning a clear blue sky into a haze that covered a good 10 miles by 20 miles... that is not normal.



Actually a contrail that spreads is a good indication that the upper air levels are saturated. Its also an indicator that bad weather may be on the way in, in the form of a frontal system or pressure system. Us in the meteorology industry have known this for years...which makes me laugh when chemtrailers claim that the "spraying" is to cause weather



posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by NightGypsy
 


Yes....again and again it has been shown that "What in the World" is total crap.


The basic premise of the film is:

  • Normal Contrails fade away quickly
  • Scientists have talked about geoengineering using aluminum sprayed from planes
  • Since 1999, trails have been observed to persist for a long time
  • Tests in various locations at ground level have found different levels of aluminum
  • Monsanto has genetically engineered aluminum resistent crops
  • The government denies any spraying or geoengineering is going on --

  • THEREFORE: The trails are aluminum being sprayed as part of a secret government geoengineering project.


  • See? Silly beyond belief, once you take time to cut through the clutter and double-speak (and outright LIES) in the film's narrative, itself. The point of this OP and thread is to show that as but one example of the disjointed, and half-crazy claims constantly being made....and to show their inconsistency. And incompatibility with each other....


    Short form of the rebuttals:


    Normal contrails can persist and spread

    The aluminum tests are scientifically unsound

    ( Dirt is naturally 7% aluminum. That’s all they are finding. )

    Aluminum is everywhere, in various quantities

    ( Aluminum is the most abundant metallic element in the earth’s crust.... )



    A bit more snippet:


    The film presents the conferences on geoengineering as if they are somehow secret and clandestine operations that need to be revealed to the public. In reality geoengineering of this type has been discussed for at least sixty years. It’s hardly covered up.....


    More, in fullness, to be read HERE: contrailscience.com...



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 09:51 PM
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    Originally posted by NightGypsy
    reply to post by weedwhacker
     





    Film "What in the World..." long ago shown to be a pile of bunk.


    LMAO....."a pile of bunk".....really? REALLY? Wow, the levels some will stoop to.......

    Weedwhacker, this whole chemtrail thing is gaining momentum. Soon, you will have no arguments that will hold water.


    That seems unlikely, since all contrails are almsot exclusively water!!


    However science will continue to "hold water" until someone comes up with evidence why it should not.

    WITWATS presents a "sample" purporting to show high levels of aluminum in water - however the sample is not actuall water - it is dirt - sludge - earth. The crust of the earth is about 7-8% aluminium....and this sample was only about 3% - so as far as showing high levels of aluminium goes it was a total failure.

    If you think that poor science like that is going to prove chemtrails exist then I have a bridge to sell you....barely used...only 1 careful owner...has a great outlook over Darling Harbour.....


    the other premis of WITWATS are as follows:

    1/ "Normal contrails" fade quickly.
    -a fantasy that 70 years of evidence and science contradicts. Moreover the video provides no actual evidence why this should be so. Clouds can persist for hours, so there is no reason why contrails made up of the same subsdtance as clouds should not do so either.

    2/ Scientists have talked about geoengineering using aluminum sprayed from planes.
    The basic problems here are at least 2-fold - firstly talking about is not the same as doing. And secondly the geoengineering "talk" at the moment is all about "spraying" sulphates, not aluminium.

    3/ Monsanto has genetically engineered aluminum resistent crops
    Aluminium poisoning of soil is a big problem, and has been known about for at least 90 years (there are articles about it referenced as far back as 1920). However the mere presence of aluminium does nto poison soil - it is aluminium ions that posion soil, and they occur when soil is acidic. So the problem is the nature of the water around - where it is acidic there is a lot of aluminium poisoning, and not so much elsewhere.

    There is a LOT of money to be made by someone who can breed aluminium resistant plants - it does not require any "extra" poisoning.

    Also of course given that soil is already anything from



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 10:05 PM
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    reply to post by OzWeatherman
     


    Please don't call me a chemtrailer... I am an educated man in his 40s who happened to watch something very bizarre and has questions about it; despite having been in the airline industry for years I have NEVER seen anything even remotely close to this.

    I didn't come here to be attacked and defend my search into possibilities. Enjoy the rest of the thread without me.



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 10:09 PM
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    reply to post by Thermo Klein
     


    Errrr....

    Where exactly did I claim you were a chemtrailer?



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 10:31 PM
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    Fantastic reply, sir!


    Originally posted by OzWeatherman

    combine this with a fairly fast wind speed (fast is about 15 knots plus), and all of a sudden, cloud starts to spread. The introduction of more water vapour into more air parcels, (as the cloud forms), starts to saturate the surrounding environment, thus creating more water or ice nuclei, moving to more areas, and increasing the cloud cover yet again


    While I had a laymen's understanding of the creation of the trails, the above information was something I didn't know. I suppose I could have assumed this might happen, but I appreciate you making a concise, factual clarification


    It's hard to take people seriously when they display ignorance on these boards sometimes, and I can sympathize if it makes some members frustrated, but answers like this are much more beneficial for the discussion. I know a lot of us here echo the motto of "deny ignorance" but if you don't know something, it's hard to know that you don't know it if that makes any sense haha
    I appreciate your attitude



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 10:59 PM
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    Originally posted by shenanigans

    , can you explain what creates the conditions for persistent contrails?


    high relative humidity, and low temeprature.

    these conditions can be at any altitude, but for most practical purposes they happen at high altitude.

    However you can find info on persistent contrails at low altitude in Antarctica, and "Ice fog" (essentially the same) from car and industrial exhaust in Alaska.

    Back to airborne contrails - the Appleman chart was devised in 1953 to predict contrail formation - it's not 100% accurate tho', as there's often a lot more happening in the atmosphere and you rarely have the exact information about the uper atmosphere that would allow 100% accuracy.

    there's a discussion of the accuracy over at hte Randi Foundation - forums.randi.org...



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 11:10 PM
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    what is cloud seeding
    has this not

    been going on for decades
    so in a sense

    are not the ones who
    get called names

    right

    spraying from planes
    to cause weather

    we did this is
    vietnam



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 11:45 PM
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    My hypothesis is that the powers that be are spraying the Weople of the United States Of America is because there is a war going on with the manipulation of the weather and major forced geological disturbances between
    the super powers and you are told we are the only super power.

    Even though I feel the chemtrails are toxic to humans the manipulation of weather and geological creation of earthquakes by HAARP devices are kept at bay by the the reflective shield created by the chemtrails.
    Again this helps reflect the concentrated energy beams that are bounced off the ionosphere. ^Y^



    posted on May, 10 2011 @ 11:45 PM
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    Originally posted by Truther9111776
    what is cloud seeding
    has this not

    been going on for decades
    so in a sense

    are not the ones who
    get called names

    right


    I get called names, so yes, I guess I am right.

    Indeed cloud seeding has been happening for decades.


    spraying from planes
    to cause weather

    we did this is
    vietnam



    Yep.

    But it doesn't resemble "chemtrails" at all - firstly it has obvious equipment - siler iodide candles that burn to produce crystals, or dry ice powder.

    Secondly the trails look nothing like "chemtrails" - they are much thinner & disperse quickly - the material in them is no use if it remaisn ina trail

    Thirdly it is done near ran clouods, usually underneath tehm, not at high altitude on bright blue days and sometimes near cirrus clouods.

    fourthly - it is almost invariably done by small piston engined a/c, not passenger or cargo jets.

    Fifth - it is trying to make rain in a relatively local area, not change the climate of the whole world.

    Lastly - although the military operation in Vietnam was secret at eth time, teeh general principles are not, and there is a wealth of study done on it - many governemnts around the world have programmes, as do many US states.



    posted on May, 11 2011 @ 12:29 AM
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    A little food for thought, in 1974 Jacque Fresco was on Larry King and among the many things he was discussing he mentioned controlling the weather. Larry King stopped him, 'wait a minute, controlling the weather!'

    'It's very easy to control the weather...' and he continued on with his original point.

    Now if you don't know Mr. Fresco, he does not joke around.

    So if any "contrailists" would like to explain how the weather is controlled so easily with "primitive" technology from 1974 (and earlier), I'd like to know. But I can't help thinking, if we only could add something to the air... led to this ability.

    I believe in chemtrails, and while they may not even be bad themselves, I believe not disclosing the information is however in poor taste.

    So contrailists, if not chemtrails, how DO we easily control the weather with science?



    posted on May, 11 2011 @ 02:30 AM
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    Originally posted by GoatwolfeWolfgoate
    A little food for thought, in 1974 Jacque Fresco was on Larry King and among the many things he was discussing he mentioned controlling the weather. Larry King stopped him, 'wait a minute, controlling the weather!'

    'It's very easy to control the weather...' and he continued on with his original point.

    Now if you don't know Mr. Fresco, he does not joke around.

    So if any "contrailists" would like to explain how the weather is controlled so easily with "primitive" technology from 1974 (and earlier), I'd like to know.



    So would we all!

    I'm afraid that a one-liner from a "futurist" and the inventor who thinks that a few hundred people were all that was needed to run society in 1974, and who was proposing that society should change to use technology in every way possible doesn't actually comprse proof.

    The interviews are available at dotsub.com...

    His comment about controlling the weather starts about 6.30 with a comment that "cities of the future" will have a computer that controls the environment - including weather. He also phases out business courses and all repetitious jobs.

    At 8 minutes Larry King askes "will the computers control the Weather?" His answer is "That is a relatively easy project to manage"

    LK: "Easy to control? (yes) You can control the weather?"
    JF: "I can go into that with you in a short while"

    so he's not actually saying that he can do it there and then at all.

    Sorry about that.


    So contrailists, if not chemtrails, how DO we easily control the weather with science?


    Science thinks we can control it in a number of ways, known as Geo-engineering...and there is a lot of information about that out there, and some ways of doing it are being done right now - it's not actually secret!!

    You should watch the video - it's an interesting view of the future, and it sure isn't here yet!!




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