Remember when the US Army invaded China? Don't remember marching on Beijing? I do.

reply to post by muzzleflash


But what war have we been in the last hundred years that involved imperialism, you do know what imperialism is dont you? Cause I dont see the USA obtaining any new colonies yet? Much like Britian did with South Africa?

Indoctrinate is the key word here. Most people have been indoctrinated by their left wing history teacher. 99% of people on this site need to think for themselves.


www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1305046349&sr=1-1

Lies My Teacher Told Me, is a great book that everyone on this site should read. If they did, there would be a lot less posts about pointless topics.

reply to post by muzzleflash




Thank you muzzleflash.

Originally posted by SigmundFRAUD
Amazing how history changes depending on who's teaching.

Yeah, thats galled Indoctrination. It'd popular in countries where most of the other generation was taught the same.

But who is the indoctrinated one?

The guy saying "Some truth needs to be covered up to protect the system" (you)
Or the guy saying "All truth must be revealed in order to make better decisions for the future" (me)

The guy saying "Some facts about history are Anti-American"
Or the one stating that "The Freedom to know our true history is pro-American"?

I apologize for paraphrasing your statements, but essentially that is what you were implying with your comments above. I am sorry that you dislike the truth, but it is something you will have to face and overcome. Please don't reject it as some Anti-American garbage. It's not. It's pro-American all the way my friend. Pro-Freedom, Pro-Truth, Pro-Justice.

Explain to me how it is good for everyone everywhere to know everyones trump cards? I suppose you want to "out all foreign operatives etc".
I think the MEDIA and people who seek to harm National Security are wrong. This push to bring every last thing into the open is what is causing wars, people to get killed, and a multitude of other problems. We can "know" but we dont need to know everything. Go into KFC and ask for the special recipe..so we all can make it, because disclosure HAS to happen in all aspect. Right? Go to NASA and demand the spaceshuttle plans be given to all counties.....demand that our enemies sound out all our information from the government, right??? WTF

Originally posted by SigmundFRAUD
The more and more threads and comments I read, it's starting to appear this is an Anti American website.

Well you and apparently many others here are focused on the "American" angle both pro and con.


In the OP Muzzle clearly laid out all those involved. So while some take it as a another opportunity to slam the US remember many have so far [for the most part] have ignored the other countries involved in the situation at the time, who were equally [if not more so] actively complicit and should share their rightful amount of critiquing of their individual involvement and guilt in the equation.

It shows soldiers standing side by side of the Alliance.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/7faef86648a5.jpg[/atsimg]

Left to right: Britain, United States, Russia, British India, Germany, France, Austria-Hungary, Italy, Japan.

Originally posted by Common Scarecrow
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I have heard of the Boxer Rebellion but never looked into it.

Why the hell can't countries just leave other countries alone?

And people wonder why the world hates us here in the U.S.

All this damn flag waving and "yahooooo" mentality is for the birds.

How about us minding our own damn business for once and taking care of our problems here.

Exactly. You have hammered that nail into the coffin so hard, I don't even know where the nail went.

Hopefully it isn't too late to turn this thing around. If we can inform people about what is really going on, and what really happened in the past, perhaps they can understand why we are in the problems we are today. This will cause them to take anti-imperialist stances, and to vote accordingly.

Information is power, and knowledge of the truth will lead to war becoming obsolete. And then we can bring our boys and girls back home and fire up the BBQ and break out the brewskies and enjoy life for once. And perhaps we can form a decent relationship with other nations globally rather than a tense "on the brink of war" type relationship.

The INDOCTRINATION line holds water in countries who had state run media.

Most in delevoped countries have access to media all over the world, and stacks of books. and eductionals, and travel.

Those in these small countries do no, and rely on state run media. THEY are indoctrinated.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by SigmundFRAUD
The more and more threads and comments I read, it's starting to appear this is an Anti American website.

Well you and apparently many others here are focused on the "American" angle both pro and con.

In the OP Muzzle clearly laid out all those involved. So while some take it as a another opportunity to slam the US remember many have so far [for the most part] have ignored the other countries involved in the situation at the time, who were equally actively complicit and should share their rightful amount of critiquing of their individual involvement and guilt in the equation.

Exactly Slayer, America only played a small part, troop wise. Also we only played a very small part in the true atrocities and brutality that went on at that time.

The Japanese were the most involved in the Boxer Rebellion out of all of the Alliance nations. I found a picture that kind of makes a example of the amounts of soldiers deployed compared to each nation. The Japanese were the main contingent.
Wiki Image of Boxer Troop numbers

Britain and Germany appear to have come in 2nd place (roughly).

The USA was the LEAST involved of the 8 Nation Alliance.

Originally posted by SigmundFRAUD
The INDOCTRINATION line holds water in countries who had state run media.

Most in delevoped countries have access to media all over the world, and stacks of books. and eductionals, and travel.

Those in these small countries do no, and rely on state run media. THEY are indoctrinated.

Your comments are that some facts should be withheld to protect the state.

And you claim you are not indoctrinated? You just randomly happen to be pro-statist?

I find this coincidence hard to believe.

I think this speaks as much to the failure of the American educational system as it does to "bullying" western powers. My high school history classes in the early 1970's definately covered this, and there was a famous (at least for the time) movie entitled "100 Days in Peking" with a full complement of A-list actors. No, it was not an earth-shattering event, unless you were actually involved. The Boer War in South Africa, which was going on at the same time, was much more of a concern to the West, and almost started a conflict between Great Britain and the German Empire.
I am always astounded and somewhat frustrated by people who suddenly discover history and then apply "modern" morality to the actions of people who lived a century or more ago. Would the OP like a list of Chinese attrocities committed from 1900 to the present? Oh, of course that's different because the Chinese are not responsible for their actions, since they are not Illuminati, Masons, Bushes or Rockefellers.
You guys must have excellent drugs.

reply to post by muzzleflash


People like you make this world the evil and deformed place it is today.

Not to over use Uncle Ben from Spiderman, "but with great power comes great responsibility"

Imagine a world where Saddam is still in Power. Some one who killed thousands of his own people. Someone who raped and bruitalized women. Kept freedom from his people and locked up his soccer team when the lost. Or a world where the US didnt step in to help.


Imagine a world where Hitler or the Germany from WWI were still in charge. Or a world where the US didnt step in to help EUROPE.

I could go on and on about Korea, Central America, etc. But that would take the next week listing people that the USA is responsible for saving. Because we have the power, because we care. We will help where help is needed.

In respect to the rest of you who dont want to help, GO HUG A TREE! And turn the channel away from NBC everyonce in a while. I know it may involve getting off the couch, but I think you can handle it. Thanks.


‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’ Edmund Burke

reply to post by muzzleflash

Ignored In American Public Schools and when mentioned, downplayed and smoke-screened with lies or half-truths.

I actually do remember learning about the boxer rebellion when I was in school.

I wouldn't say that it was downplayed either. The US got involved on the tail end of the conflict. Of the eight nation alliance, the US is ranked eighth in contributions (according to the wiki page that you linked to). In short, the overall impact of this on American history is probably isn't very large and that is why it is not gone into too much depth.

Originally posted by taskforce4256
I think this speaks as much to the failure of the American educational system as it does to "bullying" western powers. My high school history classes in the early 1970's definately covered this, and there was a famous (at least for the time) movie entitled "100 Days in Peking" with a full complement of A-list actors. No, it was not an earth-shattering event, unless you were actually involved. The Boer War in South Africa, which was going on at the same time, was much more of a concern to the West, and almost started a conflict between Great Britain and the German Empire.
I am always astounded and somewhat frustrated by people who suddenly discover history and then apply "modern" morality to the actions of people who lived a century or more ago. Would the OP like a list of Chinese attrocities committed from 1900 to the present? Oh, of course that's different because the Chinese are not responsible for their actions, since they are not Illuminati, Masons, Bushes or Rockefellers.
You guys must have excellent drugs.

Thanks for bringing up the Boer War, as most people have never even heard of it.
Wiki Crash Course in Boer Wars
It's definitely good reading and very informative.

Your second paragraph has me concerned though. I am not sure why any time history is brought up, people have to take it personally and assume it is a "political attack against them". That is probably due to the way we have been indoctrinated to think we are the "good-guys, all the time".

No one here said the Chinese were not brutal totalitarians, and if they did, I would argue with them all night. The Chinese Govt since the Communist Rebellion has been one of the most brutal and horrific regimes to ever exist in the history of humanity. Chairman Mao stands on far more skulls due to his policies than Hitler or Stalin could dream of accomplishing.

The modern Chinese Government is entirely authoritarian and fascist, and I cannot stand their government. They love to "hide the truth", a great example is the Tibetan massacres or the massacres of the Uighur peoples in West China just a few years ago. Most have forgotten those incidents but not me, no way! I supported and still support independence movements in China, because it is an empire of many various nations collected under the umbrella of Chinese Imperialism.

The point of this thread was to spur thought and research on the part of ATSers. Not to turn this into a "who is worse America or China" debate. It's absurd, we are all human and everyone makes mistakes. But we should not allow such silly debates distract us from the atrocities that did occur. There is no real justification for many if not most of the atrocities of history. I am very concerned with the mentality that automatically attempts to justify them, downplay them, or distract from them by bringing up other issues to whitewash it.

It was a very different time. You act like the USA invaded modern china...

the russo-japanese war is testiment to the fact that china under the the manchu dynasty was a backward and fading empire, and so obviously subject to still thriving imperialism of the day. Everyone wanted a piece of china, Japan and Russia wanted northern china (manchuria), Korea... and the US wanted a strong and independent democratic trading partner.

yes, there were many wars in china in the 20th century. Of course the US was always present, but its presence was mostly in defense of China. You can minsc words all you want, and make the US an imperial devil, but russia and japan were clearly THE threat to China in the 20th century.

Nobody liked the ancient, crumbling monarchy (manchu dynasty). And back in those days, imperial wars were perfectly warrented by the international community.

Lets not project our modern values onto a time when they had absolutely no grounds.

Originally posted by kellynap43
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

People like you make this world the evil and deformed place it is today.

Whoa!
I guess I should take that as a compliment that the truth ticks you off.

Newsflash: I have never killed anyone. I never steal anything. I don't cheat on my wife. I love my kids and play with them and educate them about math, science, writing, etc.

That was quite a personal attack there. And I am quite a thick skinned person but I admit, it does get to me a little bit. In the comical way of course, that makes me just open my eyes really wide, and laugh.

I guess since I am the reason Earth is deformed and evil today, I should STOP trying to read anything, STOP trying to share my research and assessments, and STOP trying to change things by pointing out what I see as wrong.

I suppose I should have known that gem was coming, but I suppose I am relatively naive and didn't quite expect it. Thanks for the excellent comedic relief though.

Originally posted by SigmundFRAUD

Originally posted by gncnew

When you're on top - everyone wants to see you fall... human nature.

Yeah...that is why Americans work so hard to help developing countries or countries killing their own poeple, because we like to see people fall/fail.

It might be "human nature to want to see your favorite team win and the other fall". The US participates in Live and Death situations that impact the world. Not just whether a baseball franchise sells less hats and hotdogs if they fall

"Ye who is without guilt, cast the first stone"

Like I said, the US is the sexy pick for people wanting to b!tch about the world.

Originally posted by Common Scarecrow
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I have heard of the Boxer Rebellion but never looked into it.

Why the hell can't countries just leave other countries alone?

And people wonder why the world hates us here in the U.S.

All this damn flag waving and "yahooooo" mentality is for the birds.

How about us minding our own damn business for once and taking care of our problems here.

Because the nature of our world is to either eat, or get eaten. Those that "leave the world alone" get gobbled up by it.

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Thank you for showing me this. What China did was right, they defended their homeland, we weren't suppose to invade. Imposing an idea on someone is not suppose to be done, it just leads to someone dying.

Originally posted by SPACEYstranger

Lets not project our modern values onto a time when they had absolutely no grounds.

That is an absurd argument to make.

People bled the same back then as they do now.

A bullet in my head in 1850 would be the SAME as a bullet in my head today! I'd be murdered...

Oh but back then murder was ok right? Back then going into other nations was ok and cool, and getting shot in the face was not a big deal back then they didn't really care if they lived or died, they didn't have cool Iphones to play with so life wasn't worth living???

Sadly, many people to this very day still do not mind supporting unjust wars. There are plenty of on-going modern examples.

reply to post by muzzleflash



No response to the appropriate uses when the United States has interceded? Oh, I see, just going to use the deflect technique. And not really discuss any refutes against your argument.

Originally posted by gncnew
Because the nature of our world is to either eat, or get eaten. Those that "leave the world alone" get gobbled up by it.

Don't hate the players, hate the game.

I agree 100%. It's the game we need to change. It's the game we need to learn about and focus on.

The players names change, but the game doesn't!

We should be careful not to fall into the 'cult-of-personality' and blame individual people as being the "cause". Because that's not exactly the real truth.

The cause was the system we are all living within / under. The system is what we need to change.

What's done is done, holding ill will against specific individuals of the past will not help us make a better future. But seeking to change the 'game' is what really will bring us a good future.
Nice point.