What if America falls?

Originally posted by ontarff
The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (now incorporated) has had bankruptcies in the past and survived.

www.apfn.net...

Inflation (profit margins) will continue to climb, but America as most of the world knows us will not "fall". We are a Republic where individual States would succeed if the US government got too aggressive with Federal taxation.

The only way this country could fall is if we were occupied by another country's military (like we have done in Iraq) to form a new government. Obviously, there will be no invasion of the USA. Our nuclear deterrent will assure that.

Global markets would have to use a new currency (bancorp?) if the U.S. dollar fails.

The only one that survives the "then and now" and soon coming bankruptcies are the Too Big To Fails...
Still waiting for my bonus for failure....

If they ran The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (now incorporated) as a business the same way they did before 1913 you would be just fine as every generation would spend within it's means and not create dept for profit for future generations to pay.

Checks and Balances everyday just like McDonald's.

You are now paying 1000's of times more for less than you did before the prosper years of 1913.

Any President could reinstate JFK's executive order 11110 at any time and allow the US Treasury to create non-fiat American currency.

www.john-f-kennedy.net...

Why don't they...?

Also you asked about Global markets would have to use a new currency... well yes and no...Proposed IMF's SDR's is the same turning paper into gold crap. Just a new hand in a BS poker game.

reply to post by watcher3339

2. We feed the world.

I just have to say...what a load of crap. You feed a fraction of the world. Other countries also help feed you.

reply to post by picky


"i wll laugh my head off,there well overdue there bully tactics to come back and slap them!"

No you won't be laughing...you need to think about what you are saying

I know everyone loves to jump on the demonize America bandwagon i'm not that fond of my government either but don't forget all of the good that our country has done for the world as well...just saying

reply to post by BlahBleh


He is referring to the fact that America is referred to as the Worlds Bread Basket and no it's not a load of crap you can look it up if we stopped exporting grain many would go hungry. Although we do take in many exports from elsewhere his point was still valid.

Originally posted by STEADFast
YOU MEAN WHEN AMERICA FALLS... its coming.

Peace will reign once more over the world and people will hold hands in joy....okay not quite but I honestly think, contrary to what Americanistani's think, they would probably get help from some countries even though everyone round the world see's them as generally lacking much intellect or being able to tell the truth...mostly.

Seriously though I reckon the country will fall into disarray, barbarism and even back to a tribal mentality much like in the wild west. Out of this I expect some order to finally come about however it all depends on who gets to the control's first, the people or the powers that be?

Adios.

reply to post by old_god


I reckon you will develop carpal tunnel from having your fingers crossed for rest of your life.

Originally posted by watcher3339
It will not fall.
There may be unrest. There may be transition. And the rest of the world may get very, very pissed by the time we have put our financial house in order, but the U.S. and its actual economic position will not fall.

1. China, much to their dismay, can't afford for it to fall. Not only do they have a huge stockpile of our dollars but they rely too heavily on our purchasing power to propel their own economy. Yes, they can wean themselves. They actually want to cool down their GDP. And other markets are rising that will eventually be able to combine to replace the purchasing power of the U.S. but that will take time and the U.S. will use that time to stage the next paradigm shift.

2. We feed the world. It's so heartless and cruel to break it into those terms but, there it is. Cut our dollar. Jack up oil. Do whatever you must. And then watch our food export prices simply rise to the new occasion.

3. Despite the enacted policies of the last several decades the individualism of U.S. culture is far better suited to isolationism than it is to the globalist "its a small world after all". We can feed ourselves. We can build shelter. Most Americans, yes even the elitist leftists who would rather not admit it, don't REALLY care what the rest of the world thinks. We could default tomorrow and many would consider it finally being paid for everything that has been placed on our shoulders over the past decades in terms of policing the world.

4. The Yen can't replace the dollar. You already noted that in terms of GDP the Yen is in worse shape than the dollar. And it will continue to deteriorate as the costs rise on the recent disasters. Also, they hold a ton of our debt. A devalued dollar hurts their economic standing as well.


On a more speculatory note, havent' you noticed how close to parity all of the wester currencies are moving? Sure you are up .10 right now. Canada and the U.S. have been just about even for awhile. The pound and the Euro are still up there, but the Euro will be facing debt crisis corrections for some time to come. Amero? Banquero? Your guess is as good as mine and I am not saying that the currency of note will be the "green back" but the U.S. fiat is backed by military might and self sufficiency. Turmoil is likely. Collapse would shock me to the core and we would just exist in a closed system where it didn't matter what anyone else thought. Would give us more jobs that way too...

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that Americans don't care about people around the world, as a people we are very caring and sharing, especially in good times. It's just that we tend to be a home first kind of place. If things get really hairy we will just close the door, pull the shutters, and wait for the storm to pass. And it will.

edit on 8-5-2011 by watcher3339 because: (no reason given)

Excellent points. Especially one and two.

If you take a look at the food exported to the world from the US, imagine if that was cut off overnight due to a 'collapse'.

America can feed itself in the event of a monetary collapse. Almost the entire central United States is nothing but fields of wheat, corn and rye. Believe me, I have had the 'pleasure' of driving across Iowa, Nebraska, South Dakota, Kansas. Nothing to see BUT fields of said crops. Now whether we would continue to export food in the event of a crisis or horde it, that remains to be seen.

And China? Our two economies have an incestuous relationship with each other. If either China or the United States fell, the other would as well, or at the least be severely harmed.

Originally posted by EternalThought

Originally posted by mbartelsm

Originally posted by EternalThought

Originally posted by Nobama
reply to post by watcher3339

 

In my opinion, you just stated things that are going to help contribute to our Empire falling.

UGH!
Nobama, stop making FALLACIOUS claims...
You are pulling "Insisting on Past" fallacy and a Straw Man. You cannot say ALWAYS FALL.
You cannot argue just because "most" empires fell, it does not mean that US will "fall".
(Define Empire? In modern term please? Can you? Compare Rome to US and do a full-spectrum analysis..?).

Until you do that, you don't even have an appeal.

I'm sorry, most? do you see a single empire that was here 100 years ago? ALL empires fell and will fall, the US is just a matter of time.

Define Empire first.

What you state is your OPINION and by far not an argument, because when you make an argument or a claim, you need REAL time evidence .

Opinions are ok... but they will be regarded just as that - opinions.

edit on 5/9/2011 by EternalThought because: (no reason given)

Empire:
Etymologically, the political usage of "empire" denotes a strong, centrally-controlled nation-state, but in the looser vernacular usage, it can denote a large-scale business enterprise and a political organisation of either national-, regional- or city scale, controlled either by a person or a group authority.

^ that, plus the fact that the US practically controls the world's economy and politics, make the US an empire.

While I suppose through some combination of technological innovation, economic wizardry, and other measures, it's possible, it seems unlikely that the U.S. will remain in its preeminent position - economically or politically - forever. If history shows us anything, it is that every great empire falls.

And while the title of empire is controversial given that America is supposed to be a democratic republic, when one considers that America:

• has military bases or deployments in over 150 nations around the world,
  
• is viewed as having military might such that no nation on the planet would (at present) consider directly or overtly confronting it,
  
• is currently (for better or worse) the global economic benchmark for stability, and
  
• has been engaged in ongoing military operations in two theaters for nearly a decade now...
  

... it doesn't seem unreasonable to regard the United States as the closest thing to a modern equivalent of an empire possible in the current global order.

So with that said, is it not all but inevitable that we will eventually decline and be surpassed by others in power and political-economic influence, whether it be in the rest of the world's best interest or not (there are always going to be people who don't act out of rational or reasonable impetus)?

Japans external debt (debt to foreign countries) and national debt (government debt to its own nation) are two totally different things.

Unlike the US (the worlds largest debtor nation), Japan's external debt and the ratio to its GDP is nominal.

Japan's foreign reserve is the second largest in the world.

The US is a business like any other, and when share holders of the business see greater reward elsewhere they dump their stock and invest. China bought up all our SHIHTY stock that we dumped, now they own the company

America failed due to greed speculating on the short term, so they have no one to blame but their brokers

can you say who's your daddy in Chinese?

Originally posted by Authenticated


Americans are used to being "#1"..I don't think the U.S. government would allow America to fall..I know its suppose to happen but I think another war will start before then..or something along those lines.

edit on 8-5-2011 by Authenticated because: (no reason given)

Oh wow, let's start another war and kill more people just so America doesn't have to suffer the consequences of its own actions.

That's the kind of thinking that got us into this mess, and which makes America very umpopular in some parts of the world.

Originally posted by FuGGer
Japans external debt (debt to foreign countries) and national debt (government debt to its own nation) are two totally different things.

Unlike the US (the worlds largest debtor nation), Japan's external debt and the ratio to its GDP is nominal.

Japan's foreign reserve is the second largest in the world.

edit on 9/5/11 by FuGGer because: (no reason given)

That would explain why, despite the destruction caused by the earthquake and the problem laden aftermath, the Yen is still strong.....and the dollar is still sinking.

reply to post by ExCommando


I see the TPTB is becoming desperate. I don't know how long it will take for them to realize that the controlling the whole population of the earth using the monetary dictatorship is not going to work. After all, money has already been analyzed to be the source of all the evils in the Bible.

Vatican has literally become the whore of the Satan. The fundamental philosophical question here is how can you establish the heavenly world of the second coming Christ using the evil methods?

I think we are heading toward the society where you don't need money, where people are fundamentally free from the lack of the resources. A society with abundant resources of unlimited free energy.

The global corporate elite will just have to seize another nation to use as a base for its operations. India seems as if that's the next nation being groomed for acquisition. Nice, docile society that has been programmed to see an immense disparity between rich and poor as a result of Karma. I think it sits there as the future for the folks who built America into the trash queen that she's become.

It's like they say about marriage. Marry three time. 1st for lust, 2nd for kids and 3rd for companionship. The USA was for lust - to learn how to f*ck and to get that horny stuff worked out. India will be for having and raising kids (a safe and predictable place to create and raise the global plutocracy going forward - their own progeny in the form of organizations and properly indoctrinated elite governance), and eventually, they'll create their own version of Utopia - an uber-wealthy nation that directs the business activities and policing of the rest of the world. Who knows which land mass they'll use. It took them 200 years to get their moves and maneuvers together to the point where they feel confident that they can dump the USA and go move in with India, so it may be another few centuries before India allows them the ability to dump her and get settled in with the final wife.

reply to post by peck420

USA, like Rome, will fall...what is left of Rome? Well, the entirety of it's pre-empire country (within a couples of miles). So, if the US does 'fall', there will be a re-adjustment period, than a new period. USA will still be USA. Americans will still be Americans.

So all Roman military garrisons were eventually shut down outside the geographic area, we have the country of Italy today. Rome is still around, but does Italy/Rome have the power it once had ? No.
Same with America they will just close all there bases and come home to their natural geographic area.
America falling just mean it's sphere of influence diminishes, however who is going to catch them militarily. No matter what China does it will take decades to catch the full abilities of the American military.
In fact China is just getting there first carrier this year.
defensenews.com...
America has had them since the 1920's, they have a really long way to go, to catch the Americans, on logistical oversees tactics and supplies. China doesn't even have a blue water navy yet, France even has that.
Blue Water Navy

Originally posted by BlahBleh
reply to post by watcher3339

 

2. We feed the world.

I just have to say...what a load of crap. You feed a fraction of the world. Other countries also help feed you.

The actual statistics from the Department of Agriculture and from various agencies
AROUND THE WORLD including the European Union, Japan, South America, Asia,
etc. indicates from their food import statistics that the USA DOES INDEED FEED
THE WORLD......!!!!!.....In fact, it feed 35% of the daily grain intake of the ENTIRE
WORLD...more than 30% of the rice output (USA 2nd largest RICE producer in the
world) and 20% of all the food grade vegetables, 40% of the Soybean output and
over 12 BILLION DOLLARS a MONTH (140+ Billion a year!) in food exports which
WAY outstrips ANYONE ELSE in the world!

In most categories the USA is #1, #2 or #3 in total crop output.

Sources:

www.fas.usda.gov...

www.fas.usda.gov... ++++++++++++++++++++++&hidReportRetrievalID=425&hidReportRetrievalTemplateID=2


If the USA goes down, the rest of the world STARVES because MUCH of its output are
CRITICAL food grains and edible food crops. The state of California ALONE pretty
much FEEDS most of the USA, Canada and Mexico just in Fruits and Veggies!!!

So if we go completely ISOLATIONIST, which is what will HAPPEN if our dollar tanks
and more right-wing elements get elected...then the rest of the world is going to find
itself in pretty DIRE STRAITS when it comes to food imports and feeding their own
populations. Asia, South America and Africa will feel the effects first and WORST
if we cut off our food exports. Europe can take care of its own because of Russia's
grain export capability. Sub-Saharan Africa and the Middle East will be STARVING
TO DEATH within 3 to 4 weeks because WE are their FOOD LIFELINE --- no ifs
ands or buts about it!

Those ungrateful populations don't quite realize ITS WE WHO FEED THEM !!!!!

====

And for those of you watching and waiting for the coming apocalypse, we'll do pretty
well in the USA because we are one of the FEW COUNTRIES in the world that has
it ALL! Food Growing Capability, Water, Mineral and Metal Resources,
Petro Chemicals and Technological resources...ONLY CANADA and RUSSIA have
those SAME RESOURCES. China lacks food growing and petro chemical resources
and the Eurozone has all the elements ONLY IN separate countries which is
problematic politically.

I say let's tank the dollar, pull our military back into the homeland and go completely
isolationist, then rebuild EVERYTHING internally such as NEW and REPAIRED roads,
tunnels, bridges, optical fibre-based communications, a massive investment into an
UNDERGROUND electrical and communications grid, massive electrification of ALL
cars & trucks and a MASSIVE UNDERGROUND Maglev-based rail system network
and then FIX our elementary and secondary education system by rebuilding the
PARENTAL INVOLVEMENT BIT so that kids UNDERSTAND it is THEIR PARENT'S
DUTY and JOB to raise kids in a manner that is conducive to learning..if that means
we need to reduce the FINANCIAL pressures on parents by instituting a NATIONAL
DAYCARE system and a REDUCED workweek (i.e. 4 days a week 7 hours a day)
to give parents MORE TIME with their kids then THAT is what we should DO!

And to INCREASE the sense of civic duty, I believe that a Peace Corp-like 2 year
service period by ALL YOUNG PEOPLE at an age somewhere between 18 to 23
should be instituted! This would allow us to STREAM young people into taking
advantage of their NATURAL ABILITIES to help REBUILD AMERICA..!!!

Not every one CAN be a Doctor or Lawyer or Computer Programmer!
But sure as heck we could use a lot more Welders, Fibre-optic
technicians/installers, electricians and electric motor designers
and builders/installers!

To support all this rebuilding REQUIRES ENERGY....not the OIL KIND but
rather ELECTRICAL ENERGY and I believe the BEST WAY to do that is
MASSIVE investment into a deep underground network of a safety-first
disaster-proof electrical distribution grid that is attached to MANY DEEP
UNDERGROUND PEBBLE-BED Nuclear Reactors which is one of the
SAFEST and CLEANEST power generation technologies ever created.

Originally designed in Germany, the Pebble Bed Nuclear Reactor can
RE-USE all that nuclear waste we have scattered about into a means
to create massive amounts of electrical power.

See Wiki Website for more info:
en.wikipedia.org...

By burying hundreds of these reactors in SEALED CAVERNS
DEEP UNDERGROUND (i.e. 1000 feet or more) in areas and systems
that are earthquake-resistant, we can PREVENT the type of disaster
that has recently befallen Japan.

Deep Underground Pebble Bed Nuclear Reactors are DESIGNED to
prevent that type of radiation leakage threat and their COMBINED output
using the spent nuclear fuel we ALREADY HAVE STORED ABOUT
could power the ENTIRE USA for the next 300 years.

We need to be BOLD in our THINKING and ACTION....WE CAN DO THIS !!!!
WE JUST NEED THE WILL AND LEADERSHIP to JUST DO IT !!!!

I'M OPEN TO BEING THE HIRED HELP!!!!!!

The whole global economy is now so interconnected what happens to one country will have a cascade effect on the rest. I have a feeling if the dollar crashes, there will be a domino effect on all the other markets. For that reason, if America does "fall" it will be a very slow one. Also I dont know if fall is the right word, change might be a better description. Because humans have a short lifespan relative to large scale historical changes, we don't really realize this kind of thing is commonplace. Look at the British Empire, The Ottoman Empire, hell look at the way the map has changed in just the past 30 years, and its evident that nothing stays the same for very long. One of the biggest problems with the US, is that immigration is outpacing assimilation. That means at some point the prevailing culture of the last hundred years or so will be supplanted by the culture of the majority demographic. Its all about birth rates. Whoever has the most babies inherits the future.

reply to post by ExCommando


I think there is a case to made for the Amero in what they are doing here. In the last decade they have devalued the American currency around 20%(give or take). That brings the American dollar & the Canadian dollar with in easy reach of each other. At the same time they are letting Mexico & the southern border descend into Anarchy. In my belief this is just another step to bring us all into line. The powers behind America are not stupid, nothing is random, and there aren't a whole lot of other ways to explain what is happening. As I see it the insane spending can only otherwise be explained away if we are about to hit a global catastrophe & it doesn't really matter anymore.

reply to post by wcitizen


The US is not the debtor... the US is the Red Shield consultants who are everyone's debtors.

The US lends what from where....?

If you mean money then...... you mean the US is lending money they borrowed from the Federal Reserve who answers to the Red Shield money.